cats eating baby bunnies while they're still alive...

[bellebud]

I really need help!  We adopted 2 female kittens from the humane society last November.  The people there didn't have any background info on the cats (if they were from a house cat or feral).  They were 3 months and 4 months old when we got them.  When I took them to the vet, he casually mentioned something about their 'wild' nature.  I took that to mean he thinks they're feral cats.  Don't know how he could tell.  

We have 2 dogs (shephard and goldendoodle), and my kids are 10 and 12.  

One of the cats generally runs from the dogs and us, but once you catch her, she's cuddly.  she'll also wake me up in the middle of the night by rubbing on my face and purring, and she'll stay there w/ me for a long time while I scratch her.  But never during the daytime.  She also hides from us all day.

The other cats follows me around, but stays 10 - 20 feet away.  She runs if I try to approach her.  She approaches the dogs and sits near them sometimes.  Both cats come for feeding times when I call out to them and will tolerate my presence, but they don't really want affection.

We wanted them to be indoor/outdoor cats, as we have a doggie door in our backdoor and a fenced yard for the dogs, and we have our doors open in the spring/summer/fall.  There's really no easy way to keep them as 100% indoor cats, and all they want to do is go outside.  

Here's the problem... they have taken to catching moles and baby bunnies.  The main problem is they only 1/2 kill the bunnies, and eat it while it's still alive.  It's honestly horrific and more than we can take.  Last week, in a 24 hour period, there were 8 dead or 1/2-dead bunnies/moles in my house and on our deck.  Again, it's just too much.  I grew up w/ an indoor/outdoor cat (she lived for 17 years), and she only once brought in a dead mouse.  I now call the cats the 'zombie' cats, because they eat things that are still alive.  My kids are finding 1/2 dead (but still alive) little animals everywhere... I don't want to have to end their misery, or try to nurse them back to health.  

From the little I've read here, it seems having an indoor/outdoor cat is a huge no-no.  How do you all keep them in w/out it being a minute-by-minute hassle.  I can see if someone lives in an apartment w/ one door in/out, but living in a house w/ kids and kids friends in and out various doors all day, dogs in and out, and summertime living in the backyard, I just can't see how it's done.  

I was thinking of re-homing these cats to a horse barn.  I'd only take them to one that wanted them.  These cats just don't want to be pets, and I honestly feel bad keeping them inside (that's what we're doing for now, but there's no way we could live like this forever).  I have a screened porch I've been putting them in when we know we'll be in and out for the day (the porch is huge), and they're also in the house w/ us at nighttime and some days.  

I've thought 'ok, we'll just keep them and they'll live in the screened porch most of the time'... but that's not really fair to the cats, and they're not our pets then either.  Kind of silly.  

Any advice, thoughts, etc.

 

[p3 and the king]

Sometimes ferals just can't be completely rehabilitated... And they always keep a bit of the wild side in them.. It's a survival mechanism.  But, things to take into consideration... #1, They are still very young.  And, with time, they could change.  Many cats grow to be more mild and affectionate as they age, even crazy and wild kittens that are too busy doing their own thing to have much to do with you.  #2, it is very possible to keep them indoors.  Not only for their safety but health as well.  They can get many diseases from eating rodents.  It really is not safe.  Again, I think this is a survival mechanism and once they become accustomed to being fed regularly and feel safe, this could go away... Maybe not.  But, more than likely it could.  However, keeping them indoors will change the behavior once and for all. 

The thing about "rehoming" them as barn cats is that they would have to resort back to being feral... And any progress they have made would be erased.  Ferals on average do not live too long.  3 years on average.  Longer if they are very lucky. Feeling bad for keeping them in is you, not them.  It really is for the best on so many different levels.   

Lots of people have screened areas and their cats love to spend as much time as possible there.  It is safe.  It is a way for them to enjoy nature without the risks.  It is fine.  You could maybe put a dog flap in the door and teach them to use it?  Then they could come in and out as they please.  To encourage them to be inside, I would keep their food, water dishes and litterboxes indoors.  And a toy box, too.  Do you have Da Bird?  If not, it is a very cool toy that can help them get their prey drive excercised satisfactory while bonding with you, as well.  I would look into it.   

There are many things you can do to help bond with them... But ultimately it comes down to whether or not you want to.  It will be work.  But it can also be fun.  Best of luck!

 

[sk_pacer]

You're reacting negatively to normal cat behaviour; they are not being cruel nor are they being anything but cats. If you wish to keep them indoor-outdoor, tell them they are good cats, dispatch and dispose of the kill and that should be the end of it, as they will soon bring the critters to you to dispose of. If them being cats bothers you, keep them inside.

Taking them to a horse barn is not a good idea as they will have a huge problem learning about hooves - trust me, I have seen cats that have grown up around horses get stepped on and injured or killed. I have a horse and he loves cats but not all react the same way - he even has a favourite cat that he allows to sleep on him.  

If kept indoors, and given a bit of age, the cats will settle down. Hissy brought herself in the house two years ago, and she was pretty wild - would only allow the odd pat before cat feeding time and no more. She came inside at age 6 and never left - figured out food and potty arrangements on her own - and over the last while, she has become a downright pest for attention. She will get up on something, paw gently at my had, or snag a sleeve to pull my hand to her, and most of the rest of the time, she sits on the desk and stares at me, then wanders off to her drawer to sleep. The point of me telling you about her is she made HER choice of where to live and did tame down sp much she is like a different cat. She is now sitting on the monitor and watching me.

 

[ldg]

For cats, feral or not, it's natural to hunt. Some are active when given the opportunity, others aren't. But IMO, whether or not they're feral born has nothing to do with it.

We have 8 rescued cats, all feral kitty rescues, living inside, full-time with us. But we don't have kids and multiple doors or dogs, and we spent a lot of time on their socialization when we first rescued them, and we spend a lot of time ensuring they're not bored inside.

If these cats don't want to be pets without more work than you have the time to give, and you don't have the time or ability given your circumstances to keep them in and ensure they're happy without the stimulation they need (and obviously they're very active kitties!), and you're not willing to dispatch the "gifts" they're bringing you, then trying to locate an appropriate place for them might be best for all of you. :dk:

Of course, they will calm down with time.

Keeping them confined inside IS work. As P3 points out, the other option is to build an outdoor enclosure for them, to which they have free access from your home.

Seems to me that older kitties just looking for love and a warm place to curl up might be more appropriate given your circumstances. :heart3:

...and just FYI, feral born or not, your cats, at this point, aren't "feral" cats. They're not completely socialized, but more like kitties in a small TNR colony that have come to trust their humans. A just-published survey by Alley Cat Rescue of 120 feral TNR groups in 37 states indicates that these cats can live much longer lives than non-colony feral cats: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/alley-cat-rescues-national-feral-cat-survey-157263395.html

25% of the groups report that their colony cats are 6 to 8 years old;
35% report their cats are between 9 and 12 years old, and
over 14% report feral cats 13 years old and some even older.

(Just addressing the comment that feral cats live 3 years on average).

It really depends on predators and road traffic where you live. Of course, overall, cats are safer indoors; no cars can hit them, no birds of prey or coyotes to stalk them. Indoors, cats live longer and generally healthier lives. ...But the ACR data supports previous studies with the notion that feral cats really do quite well, especially when sterilized, supplemented with food, and in many cases provided with some level of vet care.

 

[cesg]

Have they been neutered?  hormones are incredibly powerful things and cause all kinds of unwanted (to humans) behaviors.

"feral" means not socialized to humans.  The fact that they will be with in line of sight of you and you can touch them means they are not feral.  Wild nature simply means they are a little crazy.  There is a difference.  When you think of a feral cat think similar to a raccoon.  a cat with a wild nature is similar to a young child hyped up on sugar and excitement.

They are young, they probably have no idea how to properly kill their prey.  You can either encourage them to come back and dispatch of their pray or you can continue to dispose of it.  Young kittens want to be accepted by the clowder by providing food.  Older ones want to keep their humans well fed (cause we are just too lame to hunt for ourselves).  Praise is the response your kitties are expecting.  By offering it back to them you are telling them that they do not need to provide for the family.  Hopefully that will keep them from bringing as much home to you.

Cats that aren't exposed to the outside are much easier to keep in.  A dog door and the already open access to the outside will make keeping them inside that much harder.  I don't know why people think it is near impossible to teach children that pets can't go out a door. It is part of growing up and something kids should be able to understand.  If they don't then they shouldn't be anywhere near an open door by themselves for risk to their own safety.

I am assuming that enclosing the back yard with cat proof fencing is something you aren't willing to entertain.  It is a big assumption on my part, so forgive me if you are willing to incur that expense. there are cat proofed rooms you can attach to your home as well which will give your kitties access to the great outdoors while keeping them indoors.

If you feel you can't keep them, a barn isn't the best option for the reasons cited above.  try to find a home for them that can either keep them inside or won't mind the 'prizes' that the kitties bring home.

 

[bellebud]

OP here.  I really appreciate all the replies.  Giving me lots to think about.  

Lots of people have screened areas and their cats love to spend as much time as possible there.  It is safe.  It is a way for them to enjoy nature without the risks.  It is fine.  You could maybe put a dog flap in the door and teach them to use it?  Then they could come in and out as they please.  To encourage them to be inside, I would keep their food, water dishes and litterboxes indoors.  And a toy box, too.  Do you have Da Bird?  If not, it is a very cool toy that can help them get their prey drive excercised satisfactory while bonding with you, as well.  I would look into it.   

There are many things you can do to help bond with them... But ultimately it comes down to whether or not you want to.  It will be work.  But it can also be fun.  Best of luck!

I will look into Da Bird.  Any other tips to help bond with them?  When we got them, we put a kitty door (w/ no flap, just an open 'hole') in our basement door, and their food and litter boxes are down there (this way they have privacy, and the dogs can't eat their food).  This past week or so, I was keeping them on the screened porch a lot, and putting their food out there too, and a litter box.  Maybe I should not have the litter box there?  And not feed them there at all?  My thought is that if we try to keep them, the screened porch is where they'll go when other kids come over, or when it's a day we want to keep the doors open.  So they may be out there for the entire day a lot of the time.  They'd need food and their litter box.  So I was thinking they'd get confused or annoyed if I had it out there sometimes, and not others.  Do you think it's ok to have the box in the basement where it's always been, and out on the porch?  They've used the boxes in both places now.

You're reacting negatively to normal cat behaviour; they are not being cruel nor are they being anything but cats. If you wish to keep them indoor-outdoor, tell them they are good cats, dispatch and dispose of the kill and that should be the end of it, as they will soon bring the critters to you to dispose of. If them being cats bothers you, keep them inside.

It's them eating the bunnies while the bunnies are alive, making noises and trying to crawl away that we can't handle.  I get that cats are 'hunters', this is just beyond anything I ever imagined.  I understand that keeping them indoors is the only way we could keep them.

Taking them to a horse barn is not a good idea as they will have a huge problem learning about hooves - trust me, I have seen cats that have grown up around horses get stepped on and injured or killed. I have a horse and he loves cats but not all react the same way - he even has a favourite cat that he allows to sleep on him.  

I'm glad you brought that up - thank you.  I will think about that more now.  I was thinking about the stable where my kids took lessons.  The cats who lived there had very nice beds, were fed regular food, and interacted w/ the humans.  I saw the good side.  I'm sure there's more to it.

If kept indoors, and given a bit of age, the cats will settle down. Hissy brought herself in the house two years ago, and she was pretty wild - would only allow the odd pat before cat feeding time and no more. She came inside at age 6 and never left - figured out food and potty arrangements on her own - and over the last while, she has become a downright pest for attention. She will get up on something, paw gently at my had, or snag a sleeve to pull my hand to her, and most of the rest of the time, she sits on the desk and stares at me, then wanders off to her drawer to sleep. The point of me telling you about her is she made HER choice of where to live and did tame down sp much she is like a different cat. She is now sitting on the monitor and watching me.

Thanks for that story too.  Gives me hope for them to be a part of our family.

For cats, feral or not, it's natural to hunt. Some are active when given the opportunity, others aren't. But IMO, whether or not they're feral born has nothing to do with it.
We have 8 rescued cats, all feral kitty rescues, living inside, full-time with us. But we don't have kids and multiple doors or dogs, and we spent a lot of time on their socialization when we first rescued them, and we spend a lot of time ensuring they're not bored inside.
If these cats don't want to be pets without more work than you have the time to give, and you don't have the time or ability given your circumstances to keep them in and ensure they're happy without the stimulation they need (and obviously they're very active kitties!), and you're not willing to dispatch the "gifts" they're bringing you, then trying to locate an appropriate place for them might be best for all of you.

Have they been neutered?  hormones are incredibly powerful things and cause all kinds of unwanted (to humans) behaviors.

Yes, the humane society had neutered them.

They are young, they probably have no idea how to properly kill their prey. 

Interesting... never thought about that.  

You can either encourage them to come back and dispatch of their pray or you can continue to dispose of it.  Young kittens want to be accepted by the clowder by providing food.  Older ones want to keep their humans well fed (cause we are just too lame to hunt for ourselves).  Praise is the response your kitties are expecting.  By offering it back to them you are telling them that they do not need to provide for the family.  Hopefully that will keep them from bringing as much home to you.

Very interesting - thanks for stating all that.  I had always heard they bring 'gifts', but didn't really get why.  I'm now feeling the only way to keep them is to keep them inside.  

Cats that aren't exposed to the outside are much easier to keep in.  A dog door and the already open access to the outside will make keeping them inside that much harder.  I don't know why people think it is near impossible to teach children that pets can't go out a door. It is part of growing up and something kids should be able to understand.  If they don't then they shouldn't be anywhere near an open door by themselves for risk to their own safety.

It's not that my kids or our guests aren't capable of understanding that a cat may need to stay inside.  It's our house set-up.  The dogs have always had free access to the yard through their doggie door.  Our backyard doors are the swing out type (instead of a sliding screen door), so just a push opens them.  The cats themselves can push them open.  When we have people over, we're in and out because the deck is off the dining room, we bbq, swim, eat outside, etc.  I also open all the glass doors on a nice day, and just have the screened push doors.  I'm thinking that on those days (there are many), and when we have people over, the cats will be closed in the screened porch, and no one will go in/out that way.  

I am assuming that enclosing the back yard with cat proof fencing is something you aren't willing to entertain.  It is a big assumption on my part, so forgive me if you are willing to incur that expense. there are cat proofed rooms you can attach to your home as well which will give your kitties access to the great outdoors while keeping them indoors.

I would absolutely do the cat fence (I saw that on the top of this site and looked at it - pretty cool idea!)  The problem is that the bunnies and moles and chipmunks are in my yard (which always surprises me - I'd think the barking dogs would at least keep the bunnies away).  And like I said above, we have the screened porch they can use.

If you feel you can't keep them, a barn isn't the best option for the reasons cited above.  try to find a home for them that can either keep them inside or won't mind the 'prizes' that the kitties bring home.

again all, thanks!  I'm really, really torn.  I WANT to have kitties!  I've waited 20 years for my hubby to say yes.  (he's mildly allergic, but not w/ breathing - just itchy eyes).  I always had a cat and a dog growing up, so I've always missed having a cat in the house.  And since we have 2 dogs, I wanted 2 cats.  I love having the cats here.  I love seeing the one cat go up to one of the dogs.  I want them to be our pets very badly.  

I had really thought there was NO way we could possibly keep them as indoor cats, but w/ using my screened porch, I'm thinking we can do it.  I had felt really guilty doing that (not letting them live the life I think they want).  But I'm thinking a little differently now.  

Any tips for bonding more would be appreciated

 

[sk_pacer]

I know a few people that have screened cat rooms aka porches with chicken wire over regular bug screens. I even did it when I lived in a bigger city. It's a good solution for most cats. My indoor cats show no interest in outside, and two are horrified of an open door.

 

[ldg]

I don't mind working to make them a part of our family. Can you give me some ideas?

....Any tips for bonding more would be appreciated

Awww...

First of all, if they'll be spending time on the porch and in the basement, then I'd permanently keep litter boxes in both places. :nod:

Do they have multiple levels available to them on the porch (or in the basement?) Cats live in a VERY 3D world, and being able to jump around while playing is important. One quick and easy way to do this is to buy a number of large sterlite storage boxes and stack them in a pyramid, cut holes in them so the cats can go back and forth between them, up to other levels, peer out or jump straight up into different levels, and use tape or something to make them steady and secure.

Some people use shelves with brackets, staggered, to create a "kitty wall." http://www.thecatsite.com/t/201467/kitty-wall

As to bonding (and keeping them properly stimulated), the very best thing you can do is IF it is possible, set aside regular times - preferably the same time(s) each day, to spend playing with them. Interactive wand toys are probably the best way to do this. da Bird, as mentioned, is GREAT for this. My cats happen to love the little mouse end; many love the feathers. Yours may love the bunny tail. :lol3: We have all of them and switch them up.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ps&field-keywords=da+bird&tag=&tag=thecatsite

I have a couple that LOVE chasing bugs, so we also have the Neko Flies toys: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ies&rh=i:aps,k:Neko+Flies&tag=&tag=thecatsite

Mine don't like the Neko Flies mouse as much as da Bird mouse, but they LOVE the Karantula end or the Kragonfly. :nod:

(Just make sure you do NOT leave the wand toys anywhere the cats have access to them when you're not around - the last thing you want is one of them to eat the string, and it happens all too often. One of mine did. Fortunately she didn't need surgery, as she apparently chewed it up so it didn't get wrapped around her intestines, but that's what you want to avoid!).

When planning time to spend with them, just remember, cats are designed for short bursts of energy, not sustained play. So a number of 10-15 minute play sessions (or even 5 - 10 minute play sessions) are likely to be more effective than one 1/2 hour session, which will likely end up being frustrating for you to keep them going. :lol3:

Winding things up with some treats set out for them on a t-shirt or something that you've gotten good and sweaty will make them feel the sense of "reward" of "the hunt" (from the play) AND associate your scent with fun and yummy things.

 

[p3 and the king]

In my opinion, if you want to bond with them more and encourage them to be inside with you as much as possible instead of out on the screened porch, I would leave their food and water dishes inside and near you.  I would also do this with the litterboxes.  However, I can understand and know the appeal of not having them inside... And it might seem like a better idea to have them on the porch and in the basement.  It's your call. 

The interactive toys can be very helpful.  Cats associate play and feeding with bonding.  So whoever feeds them is their "mama".  And whoever plays with them, well... I am sure you get the idea!  Plus, look into the Yeoww organic catnip toys.  They come in banana (the most popular), cigar, apples, rainbows and sardine shapes.  My cats go crazy for them.  They can be a reward for a wonderful play and bonding session. Also, even if they are not long haired cats, see if you can get them used to grooming.  Find a soft brisled brush and gently groom them with it.  Grooming is also a means of bonding to cats. 

Don't get discouraged if they seem more open one minute than the next.  Young cats are easily distracted and always finding something interesting to them that they must investigate.  As they get older, many cats become more laid back and affectionate.  So just try  to love them at every stage and realize that cats have a different value system than we do. 

 

[Willowy]

Also, feed them on set meal times so they see you as the Bringer Of Food. If you just fill their bowl with crunchies and keep it full, they just won't care. But feeding set meals can be a good bonding experience.