Cat refuses organs

[simbathekat]

I've been feeding my cat Simba a raw, frankenprey diet for about a month now. She has adjusted well enough, but she dislikes eating liver and kidney. At first I would cut up the organs into small pieces and mix it with some of the liver juice, and she would slurp it up, but recently she stopped doing that as well. I feed her chicken liver and pork kidneys, because pork kidneys are the only secreting organs I can find so far. I've also tried turkey liver in the past but she hates it even more. 

Today, since she hasn't eaten organ for a couple days, I got desperate and mixed in some tuna juice with the cut up liver and kidneys. She ate it right away. Is this a sustainable way of getting her to eat organs? If anyone has any ideas or past experience, please let me know! Thanks in advance. 

P.S.

1) I find that pork kidney has an unpleasant smell. I purchased it from an ethnic market and it appears to be fresh. Is this normal for pork kidneys? I hope she's not refusing it because it's not fresh. 

2) Is it okay to freeze her food in two weeks' worth of divided portions? I always make sure I thaw it in the fridge overnight.  Would it cause the nutrients to degrade or cause her to dislike eating it?

 

[ldg]

Yes, kidneys smell. They smell like pee.

And yes, you can add something to an organ "slurry" to get them to eat it. In fact, many throw the organs in a mixer with sardine - which many PMR feeders include in the diet - and feed the organs that way. Of course, you do have to know you're using the correct amount so they're getting the right amount of organ.

And of course you an freeze portions. Freezing kills parasites, so when people use hunted meat and organs, it is imperative that it is frozen prior to feeding. My cats do prefer fresh meat, as freezing does alter the texture a bit. When you freeze, just be sure to include all the watery juice that separates when you feed it, as it contains valuable nutrients. For instance, taurine is water-soluble, so it will be over-represented in that juicy watery stuff.

If grinding ALL of the food, then supplements do need to be added, because some nutrients do degrade from oxidation, which occurs over time even in the freezer, and grinding exponentially increases the surface area that is subject to oxidation. But if feeding chunky PMR, even if portioned, the freezing isn't a problem. I often have some meats stocked up 6 weeks out.

 

[roguethecat]

If you're getting desperate, freeze-dried raw liver is pretty much the same as fresh liver and also irresistible. I haven't found any other freeze-dried organs, though (but my guys and the girl are getting freeze-dried hearts as treats). 

Also, I've found that worrying doesn't help. Especially if you're hovering over a cat that is sniffing its meal and wondering what you're so worried about.

 

[ldg]

If you're getting desperate, freeze-dried raw liver is pretty much the same as fresh liver and also irresistible. I haven't found any other freeze-dried organs, though (but my guys and the girl are getting freeze-dried hearts as treats). 

This calculator makes it easy to calculate how much freeze dried liver you need to feed in place of fresh: http://jsfiddle.net/9romx9jc/embedded/result/

If using freeze dried liver, it's easiest to feed a little bit daily as if it were a treat.

Nutricology has many "freeze dried" organs - they are supplement capsules for humans. They are expensive to use in place of fresh, but they exist: http://www.nutricology.com/search.php?mode=search&query=glandular

Because I do not feed whole prey, even though it isn't a "fresh" equivalent in the PMR model, I sprinkle one capsule of something on my cats' raw food once a day, and I rotate between pancreas, spleen, beef brain, and thymus.

 

[sjshores]

My theory is if they don't want to eat it, they have enough of the vitamins/etc in what you are putting down and are smart enough to know not to eat it.  A good quality raw diet has all they need and you can OD them on vitamins giving them a lot of extra heart/liver.  Look up the nutritional values of liver especially.... it has LOTS of Vit A (and other vitamins) in it.  But the Vit A level concerns me and that's why I don't give my cats liver.  Just one oz of liver has 75% of the Vit A humans need a day... so imagine how high that percentage is on your small cat.  Vitamin A is fat-soluble, disposing of any excesses taken in through diet takes much longer than with water-soluble B vitamins and vitamin C. This allows for toxic levels of vitamin A to accumulate.  I'm just careful about "over supplementing" on myself so do the same for my cats.   

 

[sophie1]

 
My theory is if they don't want to eat it, they have enough of the vitamins/etc in what you are putting down and are smart enough to know not to eat it.  A good quality raw diet has all they need and you can OD them on vitamins giving them a lot of extra heart/liver.  Look up the nutritional values of liver especially.... it has LOTS of Vit A (and other vitamins) in it.  But the Vit A level concerns me and that's why I don't give my cats liver.  Just one oz of liver has 75% of the Vit A humans need a day... so imagine how high that percentage is on your small cat.  Vitamin A is fat-soluble, disposing of any excesses taken in through diet takes much longer than with water-soluble B vitamins and vitamin C. This allows for toxic levels of vitamin A to accumulate.  I'm just careful about "over supplementing" on myself so do the same for my cats.   

Your cats need liver, so don't be afraid to feed it to them!  It should be 5% of the diet, or 10% if not feeding other secreting organs.

Some liver does have large amounts of vitamin A (especially turkey), but if you feed chicken liver it's nearly impossible to overdose.   I give my cats freeze dried chicken liver as treats.

BTW nice tip about making organ slurries with sardines! 

 

[ldg]

My theory is if they don't want to eat it, they have enough of the vitamins/etc in what you are putting down and are smart enough to know not to eat it.  A good quality raw diet has all they need and you can OD them on vitamins giving them a lot of extra heart/liver.  Look up the nutritional values of liver especially.... it has LOTS of Vit A (and other vitamins) in it.  But the Vit A level concerns me and that's why I don't give my cats liver.  Just one oz of liver has 75% of the Vit A humans need a day... so imagine how high that percentage is on your small cat.  Vitamin A is fat-soluble, disposing of any excesses taken in through diet takes much longer than with water-soluble B vitamins and vitamin C. This allows for toxic levels of vitamin A to accumulate.  I'm just careful about "over supplementing" on myself so do the same for my cats.   

While I agree that one needs to be concerned about over-supplementing when providing homemade cat food, your approach is dangerous and this is irresponsible advice.

A feral cat raised by a feral mother with little-to-no human contact may eat a head and not a body, or eat entrails or just a rabbit leg. This is *entirely* different than providing nutrition for a cat that is 100% dependent on us. !!!!!!

There is absolutely no guesswork involved in feeding a cat. Either you follow prey model raw feeding guidelines, ensuring kitty eats ALL of the *required* components of the diet in proper proportions OR you follow a nutritionally balanced recipe. If one cannot do that or is not prepared to, then homemade food should not be fed.

Counting on a cat not raised in the wild to know what he or she needs is like counting on a five year old child to choose a salad over a donut for dinner. Ask anyone with a sick cat that refuses to eat anything if you can count on a cat dependent on us to know what it needs. Kitty would let herself starve to death.

Furthermore, the only recorded case of a cat with vitamin A toxicity is a cat that was fed only liver, nothing else. This isn't to say one can't feed too much liver if it is not the sole component of a diet. Some of us may have many issues and problems with AAFCO and FEDIAF. But their minimum and maximum nutrient guidelines keep cats alive. And the maximum amount of vitamin A in a diet is actually quite high on a mg/kg DMB basis. The analyses of diets conducted by @mschauer and posted with the recipes in these threads illustrates quite clearly that providing the recommended amounts of liver in a cat's diet is not anywhere close to "oversupplementing" vitamin A.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272287/raw-recipe-thread

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263751/cooked-recipes-thread


I caution TCS members or guests reading this thread to ignore the "my cat knows what she needs" advice.

 

[ldg]

Some liver does have large amounts of vitamin A (especially turkey), but if you feed chicken liver it's nearly impossible to overdose.   I give my cats freeze dried chicken liver as treats.

Actually, the information that turkey liver is particularly high in vitamin A was based on an older USDA nutrient database version. (SR25 I think). The updated version (SR 26) corrected that. I am not using the correct search terms to find @mschauer 's thread or post about this, but the information was updated.

Feel free to use turkey liver as you do chicken liver!

 

[cicoccabim]

Why not dry the liver in your own kitchen? Slice thin slices, and put the oven on the lowest possible heat, with a wooden spoon to keep the oven slightly open. Keep it overnight in the oven until it is dry. Store in a sealed container or store it in the freezer. 

To make sure that you don´t feed to much of the dried liver- weigh one of the pieces before and after (I think that at least half of the weight will disappear). Give as a treat! 

My cat loves liver from "young cows" (don´t know the word in english) but hates chicken liver. Try different kinds!

 

[roguethecat]

 
Why not dry the liver in your own kitchen? Slice thin slices, and put the oven on the lowest possible heat, with a wooden spoon to keep the oven slightly open. Keep it overnight in the oven until it is dry. Store in a sealed container or store it in the freezer. 

To make sure that you don´t feed to much of the dried liver- weigh one of the pieces before and after (I think that at least half of the weight will disappear). Give as a treat! 

My cat loves liver from "young cows" (don´t know the word in english) but hates chicken liver. Try different kinds!

if it works 

I tried that, once, drying meat at home. Unfortunately, I included pork brains, so the whole place stank of intense pork. I'm sure the cats didn't mind the smell, but I did...

 they didn't want to eat whatever that produced, either.

Alternatively my research says you can just put slices of liver uncovered into your freezer. If you have freezer space, that is, which I never do. After a week or so you'll have freeze-dried liver. No smell, and no destroyed nutrients.