Cat Introduction Woes

[losna]

We had an interesting night/morning here!

Last night they had another little scuffle. This one was not nearly as worrying. She didn't notice Sinbad come up the stairs again while she was out, and she got herself trapped in the corner. They didn't fight or chase though, just sort of bobbed around hissing at each other. My husband was able to grab Sinbad in one arm and Tempest in the other and keep them apart that way until I came up. So a squabble, but not really, and it was over immediately. She was scared but got over it immediately upon my husband grabbing them. Sinbad naturally thought they were playing. But another indication that she is comfortable enough not to be paying complete attention to him, and that she isn't nearly as terrified of him as she used to be any more.

This morning... be prepared for cuteness.

So our morning routine involves my husband working out while I cook breakfast. Normally Sinbad stays down with him, then towards the end he comes up to wait in the dining room where my husband plays with him while cooling down from his exercise. He recognizes the rounds of beeps that come from various alarms and timers and sounds. He comes upstairs when the tea is ready. 

  This morning, however, while I was cooking, Sinbad came tearing up the stairs in a complete panic. We have no idea what scared him, he was out of my husband's sight when whatever it was happened.

I went up to look for him to comfort him, and found him outside Tempest's room ...

He was curled up, pressed against the gate, shaking and trembling. Tempest was right up against him on the other side of the gate, making soft mirring sounds, and in full on comforting momma pose. It was the most touching thing ever. I gave them many treats and praises.

 

[Columbine]

Awwww :heart3: That really is the cutest thing ever! I'm sure they're not far from being fully integrated - spats at this stage are really common. Its like they want to be friends and accept each other but aren't quite trusting enough to go for it. They'll get there soon

 

[mservant]

Makes me think of a momma cat with an annoying grown up kitten that persist in trying to play with her, but she can't help but offer comfort when the kitten's scared.  I think things are going really well at this point @Losna  .    Your home should be barrier free soon, though they might miss the games they play around them. 

 

[losna]

@Columbine I really hope you're right ... sigh... we had another spat last night.

I woke up in the middle of the night to growls, aggressive whines and loud hissing. Since it was clearly through the gate though, and we are trying to let them work things out themselves (we decided not to intervene anymore unless it looked like it might result in injury to either of them), I didn't get up. It eventually quieted.

But when I got up later for a wee hour bathroom visit, I found Sinbad curled under my robe, whimpering softly, and Tempest was in a tight little ball waaay back in her room.

It's heartbreaking. Is just leaving them the best thing to do at this point? Was it a mistake not to get up last night?  My husband's grandmother thinks we should just take the gates down and let them sort it out all at once, that it's been so long we're just coddling them at this point.

I've never seen them the way they were this morning, both so depressed and a little scared, each hiding under the robes of their chosen person. Sinbad hasn't left my side all morning, my feet are so dead from the weight of him on them that I can't feel them anymore. But I just can't bear to shove him off, he looks so dejected. I can't even see Tempest,  she's completely hiding under my husband's robe. She came out to eat and drink and get some cuddles when my hubby was in with her earlier, but as soon as he left for work, she crawled back into his robe. :/

 

[Columbine]

Oh no! I'm so, so sorry you're having these setbacks.

I don't know what to suggest from here. It's clearly not good for them to be in the state they were in this morning, yet they do seem to be bonding at other times. Is it only at night that the spats happen? I'm just wondering if there's something that happens that sets them off - maybe one or other of them gets extra insecure........hang on - could Tempest be reacting to Sinbad's nightmares somehow? Or could Sinbad wake up and somehow still be caught up in the nightmare and connect it to Tempest?

I think make it so they can't see each other at night AT ALL for now, and talk to your vet about Sinbad's nightmares and see what (if anything) can be done. It might also be worth looking at trying Composure for one or both of them - right now, I'd say they're each equally stressed.

I really hope you can find some answers soon. Don't give up. You've come so far already, and they ARE bonding. There must be a way through this somehow.

I hope you all feel calmer soon...especially your gorgeous furbabies

 

[losna]

It is only at night. I am still thinking that it's being caused by Tempest trying to come down to snuggle with us, Sinbad hearing her come down and meeting her, and she getting pissy because she's too scared of him to do anything but flee back to her room, but wanting to come down.

There's really nothing to dispute that at this point. She wants so badly to come out. She's trying so hard. He just overwhelms her with his desire for cuddles because he's twice her size and too dumb to realize he's terrifying when he charges excitedly at her. He is super smart in many areas, but this is the one area he just can't seem to learn.

He thinks he's a tiny kitten. It doesn't matter how many times he tries to sit on small things, each and every time he gets surprised when he's too big and falls off. His butt is constantly hanging off of edges, he can't get the hang of jumping, and he falls out of bed sometimes when he's too close to the edge because he thinks he's smaller than he actually is.

 

[Columbine]

It is only at night. I am still thinking that it's being caused by Tempest trying to come down to snuggle with us, Sinbad hearing her come down and meeting her, and she getting pissy because she's too scared of him to do anything but flee back to her room, but wanting to come down.

There's really nothing to dispute that at this point. She wants so badly to come out. She's trying so hard. He just overwhelms her with his desire for cuddles because he's twice her size and too dumb to realize he's terrifying when he charges excitedly at her. He is super smart in many areas, but this is the one area he just can't seem to learn.

He thinks he's a tiny kitten. It doesn't matter how many times he tries to sit on small things, each and every time he gets surprised when he's too big and falls off. His butt is constantly hanging off of edges, he can't get the hang of jumping, and he falls out of bed sometimes when he's too close to the edge because he thinks he's smaller than he actually is.

:lol3: Sinbad sounds so cute! My greyhound has the opposite problem - he thinks he's a little dog (jack russell sized) instead of a full grown greyhound :heart3: He loves trying to curl up in Shadow's bed....only he doesn't quite fit!

I really hope Tempest is able to relax with Sinbad soon. It does sound like she's getting there...it'll just take even more time. You've been wonderfully patient with the pair of them. It will pay off in the end. I really think blocking ALL access at night (including visual) is the way to go for now. I would keep it like this until Tempest is fully confident with Sinbad. Mega vibes for you all

 

[losna]

The problem with blocking all access is the only way to do it is to shut Tempest in, and she gets very very upset when that happens. She wants to be able to go out of her room even if she doesn't actually do so. We've tried previously due to the night time incursions, but she freaks out, so it ends up being better to just leave it open. What I'm likely going to do is insist that we put up a shelf for her this weekend on the wall outside her room. That way she can have a little bit more to explore, and a higher perch away from Sinbad.

I feel like it's bipolar though, for the first time ever she and Sinbad ate their lunch together. Sinbad kept trying to lead me to her room at lunch time, so I figured why not give communal meal another go? It's never worked before ... but this time they both sat at the gate and chowed down with no mishaps. It was amazing on several fronts - she rarely eats her lunch, let alone eating when he's there. I worry about her a lot, that she doesn't get enough food.

But today, not only did she eat all of her lunch, she ate it with Sinbad right there, and then both she and he teamed up to beg for more.

 

[Columbine]

I'm just thinking on the vertical space thing - would it be possible to give her a high-rise route from her room to yours, and places up high in your room too? If you can remove the trapped feeling in the night, then the night fighting might stop.

I'm just thinking aloud here - its getting to the point where I'm almost as desperate for that final breakthrough as you are! :lol3: You all so deserve it :nod:

 

[losna]

Sadly there is no possible route. I have commented on the escher design of our house, here is a picture of the only path from her room to ours:

20150806_152307_HDR.jpg

• losna
• Aug 6, 2015

That slope section is the roof, and the wall there it's popcorned so nothing can be attached. Even if we could though, you can see there's no way around that window. The other direction leads over a three floor drop, with even more angles. I don't think we could even get up there to put shelving, without erecting a scaffolding. To dust the ceiling i have to use a 16 foot extendable pole and stand on a full ladder.

I am thinking the best we can do right now is just putting wall shelving on that far right wall, which is right next to her room. So she could climb on it from the top of her gate, but Sinbad wouldn't be able to get up to it.

 

[Columbine]

Ahh..gotcha! I can see exactly why there are problems. There's no way around that bottleneck....short of a feline operated elevator :lol3:

Well...just keep trying. They'll get there in the end. I really do think Composure might help you get them over this last hurdle, but you know them way better than anyone here does. :cross: for a peaceful night

 

[mservant]

I'm just thinking on the vertical space thing - would it be possible to give her a high-rise route from her room to yours, and places up high in your room too? If you can remove the trapped feeling in the night, then the night fighting might stop.

I'm just thinking aloud here - its getting to the point where I'm almost as desperate for that final breakthrough as you are!

You all so deserve it

I was thinking that exact same thing. Such a shame it doesn't work.  

    

How strange that they were both so stressed out and hiding and yet then came right out and ate together at the lunch time.  

    Makes me think some kind of night-cam set up to observe what they get up to would be good - like you see on wildlife documentaries and things.   Desperately trying to think of how you could reduce the stress levels at night if one or other of them is setting the other off.  

Are lights off and all dark or are some night lights on so they are not in complete huniting, clear vision mode?

I'm guessing not - but is there any way you can start off the night with them both in your room so both have permission to be there?

 

[losna]

1052937_386461218125401_1850583343_o.jpg

• losna
• Aug 6, 2015

 

[mservant]

Hey @Losna  , those foxes are seriously cute (and great photos as ever), BUT they could also be seriously stressing your kitties!   Both if they can catch sight of the foxes outside the windows at night, and with any noises / barking going on outside.  

Your idea with Tempest's blanket and moving their cuddles to your bed does make good sense - is DH worried it could upset them in some way?  

     

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

That slope section is the roof, and the wall there it's popcorned so nothing can be attached. Even if we could though, you can see there's no way around that window. The other direction leads over a three floor drop, with even more angles. I don't think we could even get up there to put shelving, without erecting a scaffolding. To dust the ceiling i have to use a 16 foot extendable pole and stand on a full ladder.

I am thinking the best we can do right now is just putting wall shelving on that far right wall, which is right next to her room. So she could climb on it from the top of her gate, but Sinbad wouldn't be able to get up to it.

oooo! challenging area for cat wall furniture! but i like it!

how about this -- you put up a couple wall shelves for tempest starting at the far right side wall and the second shelf being on the little wall where the railing attaches to the wall (though you may not even need the second shelf). okay, now here's the interesting/tricky part. you install a cat tunnel in the wall, starting at the wall where the railing attaches and sloping no more than 30 degrees down (cats prefer no more than a 30 degree slope) and ending on that small triangular shaped wall opposite what looks like a hanging light (?) -- is that wall popcorned?. the tunnel would be 'L' shaped, or you could angle the tunnel in/through the wall and it would move in a straight line. you could simply put a picture frame type idea around the tunnel openings (to give it more of a finished look to it). now that we're at that point heading in the direction we want for tempest, you use an L-shaped window cat walk (http://www.theverticalcat.com/L-Shaped-Window-Cat-Walk_p_47.html), which would need to be longer/wider that usual to reach the far side of the window, where it would attach to the wall. you could place an additional support for the L-shaped window cat walk between (under) it and the shelf area that has plants on it -- for additional support, sturdiness. those L-shaped window cat walks are handmade items, and The Vertical Cat does do custom orders. am i right in thinking that there is a considerable 'drop' in that open area where the hanging light is? if that's the case, if it were me, i'd consider a 'novel' approach to making it 'fall off proof' -- like maybe screen mesh, which if it were me i'd have window screen tracks installed on both edges of the L-shaped walkway (window walkway may need to be wider to accommodate those screen tracks, and still leave room for tempest) and the angled ceiling -- and the window screens could simply be slid on the tracks, starting from about where the plant shelf is and slid back towards the wall where the tunnel opening is --'fall off proofed'. if there is only one story to potentially fall down from the L-shaped walkway, i think i'd simply choose the extra in the ordering options of adding carpeting to it, so if your tempest should slip she'd be able to grab on to the carpeting on the walkway -- but i think having the walkway carpeted should make it much less likely (than the stained wood would be) to slip on. once you're over to the window there, adding cat wall shelving to reach tempest's ultimate destination wouldn't be a problem, right?

my cat window walkway, from the same company, is 1 1/2 inches thick! it's very, very sturdy.

would that work?

 

[losna]

@MServant Nah, the foxes don't stress them out. The foxes have been around since we moved in, so they were part of the environment from the beginning, and neither Sinbad nor Tempest react to them when they are noisy. There have even been a few territorial scuffles as the foxes have defended our yard against raccoon incursions, and no response from the kitties other than briefly flickering ears toward the sounds. Sinbad loves to go to the window when they're in view and watch them. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's a bit similar to the way he stares at Tempest.

As to the blanket thing, I have no idea why he won't do it. He puts up resistance to random things now and again and just won't explain why.  He's used blankets to calm her down many times, so it's not like he doesn't understand the concept.  I just don't understand it.

@mickNsnicks2mom Wow that's a cool shelf. I want one.

But sadly there's duct work behind that wall so nothing can go through it. We plan to eventually lift the roof right there and add another room, so we've got the whole house mapped out in terms of electrical, piping and ducts, and that whole side of the house is pretty much solid three. It's all in pretty horrid shape, so whether we lift the roof or not it has to be replaced anyway, so maybe in a few years when it's time to start working on that we'll  be able to add in a tunnel or two, but for the present, it's impossible.

But now I want tunnels for Tempest now.................

Both the kitties are super happy right now. I rewarded their lunch time comraderie with an extra serving of lunch, so they are stuffed full of extra portioned lunch along with dinner, and snoozing happily. Amusingly they are both unknowingly in the same pose, bellies up with feet in the air. It's super cute.

 

[mservant]

 
......... Sinbad loves to go to the window when they're in view and watch them. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's a bit similar to the way he stares at Tempest.

No wonder she's afraid.  

  

    

     Poor Tempest, resident prey.  He must think you hug prey to death - a bit like Mouse and his mouse when he patted it on the head.  

As to the blanket thing, I have no idea why he won't do it. He puts up resistance to random things now and again and just won't explain why.  He's used blankets to calm her down many times, so it's not like he doesn't understand the concept.  I just don't understand it.

Do you have anything other than this blanket that your husband is so protective of?  (Maybe he thinks you will claim it if he takes it out of her territory LoL).

@mickNsnicks2mom Wow that's a cool shelf. I want one.

 .................    But now I want tunnels for Tempest now.................

Me too! Me too!  

     I did think about your window walk @mickNsnicks2mom, but thought Losna would have too many twists and turns to get it to work.  It would look amazing too. 

Both the kitties are super happy right now. I rewarded their lunch time comraderie with an extra serving of lunch, so they are stuffed full of extra portioned lunch along with dinner, and snoozing happily. Amusingly they are both unknowingly in the same pose, bellies up with feet in the air. It's super cute.

 

    Wish I was there.... they sound S O cute.  Not to mention all those little black paw pads on show, you know how I feel about those....  

 

[losna]

@MServant Oh, it's even worse than that. Sinbad clicks at her. The same long continuous machine gun click stream that bugs, birds, bunnies, squirrels, etc receive when he sees them outside the window.

She clicks at prey - but I will note that she picked up the clicking from Sinbad. It's not something she's ever done before, she used to hunt silently. But then a few months ago she started clicking just like Sinbad upon spotting bugs. But he clicks at things he wants. Whether he wants to eat it, play with it, snuggle it, all that matters is he likes it. And it's this super long stream that sounds like a toy machine gun.  He even clicks at me when I'm out of reach.

I tried to take piccies for you because I know how much you love his feet! I do too, hehehehe. But he was in the basement curled up in my blanket in the shadows of the couch so it didn't come out, and likewise with her, she was curled up in her own blanket in the dark. She likes to nap with her lights out in the afternoon so I didn't want to turn them on and disturb her just to take pictures of her feet in the air.

The light in our house is horrible, so there are only certain times of the day when photos actually come out well without every single light in the house being on.

No spats last night, I am happy to say.

 

[mservant]

'No spats' for a night is good. 

    

Sinbad is such a funny guy, he sounds even more entertaining than a young Mouse. 

  

    (Older Mouse being somewhat less silly because he sleeps more).   I know what you mean with the light thing - my apartment is east facing and only gets direct sunlight until about 10 am and that's only on good days so in reality it is considerably less.  The rest of the time photos have to be taken with flash and as soon as Mouse sees the red light guage he's got his eyes closed and his head turned away. 

   

I hope you have another peaceful night in your house tonight.  

 

[Columbine]

on a fight free night and happy day for the pair of them. Sinbad is just too funny for words! I love the certification ideas too - I'd love to do my whole house out, but parents and finances prevent it

Here's to more peaceful nights