To expand on Ferris's comment re money/breeding. If you are not breeding to the written standard and not showing your cats, then the only reason left is you are breeding to sell kittens and MAKE MONEY. Which puts you in immediately into the backyard breeder catagory.
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Breeding: How To Start Off?
- Thread starter starrdazl
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I agree in part with what Martice said, but to be fair, there are some very reputable, top notch breeders who don't show. However their cats are in the showhall, being shown by other breeders who purchased them.
Nial that may be true (if its a health issue involved) but 95% of reputable breeders do get out there and show their cats. It would be the exception. I'm sure those breeders did show at one time. I don't see how you can not show and still breed to the standard and know what is out there.
Some people might simply not agree with a certain breed standard or with the interpretation of a certain breed standard. When I look at old Persians pics they still have gorgeous type, ear set and shape, great eye colour, coat, etc, etc. They also have short noses compared to other cat breeds. (for example, cat of the year 1960 and 1961, Shawnee Moonflight, I see nothing wrong with that cat) The only thing that is really different is that the nose and muzzle have dramatically changed shape in the last decades.
I could see the Persian going the way of the Siamese, where you have the Siamese and the Thai. You could likewise get the "modern" Persian and the Traditional Persian with the nose and muzzle they had several decades ago.
I know there is a group of breeders here in Europe who are seriously working together on this.
I know a Persian with such a flat face that there is no room for his tongue in his mouth so it's hanging out all the time. I know about several Persians who have had to have their nostrils surgically widened, and others who also have breathing problems and require constant medicating. You also see a certain kind of entropion that has to do with the shape of the face and malocclusions. IMO putting too much emphasis on looks and shows promotes this kind of thing, you get trends towards the extreme, and because breeding is not wholly predictable there will be cats that get a little too extreme. We do not see them in the showhall, but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue and that people who would rather not go to the extremes the current standard (or interpretation of the standard) promotes are doing a bad thing.
If you want to know what's out there you can still visit a show without showing your own cats. In the case of a breed that is rare or isn't shown at all you need to use our network and visit other breeders to see their cats, talk to judges at other places than shows, become active for a breed club, etc.
My Somali doesn't like showing so I won't show him, it's not such a popular breed here so even though I visit shows I never see many Somali's there. But I do work for my breed club and the cat association, go to every seminar I can, visit breeders, have set up a local group for owners of my favorite breed to have tea every now and then so we can see each other's cats in the home, and I speak to judges too.
As a show steward you can get a lot of information too (at least in our show system where you sit with someone judging a certain breed or breeds).
I could see the Persian going the way of the Siamese, where you have the Siamese and the Thai. You could likewise get the "modern" Persian and the Traditional Persian with the nose and muzzle they had several decades ago.
I know there is a group of breeders here in Europe who are seriously working together on this.
I know a Persian with such a flat face that there is no room for his tongue in his mouth so it's hanging out all the time. I know about several Persians who have had to have their nostrils surgically widened, and others who also have breathing problems and require constant medicating. You also see a certain kind of entropion that has to do with the shape of the face and malocclusions. IMO putting too much emphasis on looks and shows promotes this kind of thing, you get trends towards the extreme, and because breeding is not wholly predictable there will be cats that get a little too extreme. We do not see them in the showhall, but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue and that people who would rather not go to the extremes the current standard (or interpretation of the standard) promotes are doing a bad thing.
If you want to know what's out there you can still visit a show without showing your own cats. In the case of a breed that is rare or isn't shown at all you need to use our network and visit other breeders to see their cats, talk to judges at other places than shows, become active for a breed club, etc.
My Somali doesn't like showing so I won't show him, it's not such a popular breed here so even though I visit shows I never see many Somali's there. But I do work for my breed club and the cat association, go to every seminar I can, visit breeders, have set up a local group for owners of my favorite breed to have tea every now and then so we can see each other's cats in the home, and I speak to judges too.
As a show steward you can get a lot of information too (at least in our show system where you sit with someone judging a certain breed or breeds).
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That us completely how I feel about breeding doll-faces. There is definitely nothing wrong with breeding the traditional Persians just because it's different. It's a similar scenario as with Siameses; some breed the modern show type, others breed traditional apple faces, but neither of them are wrong or bad. I was also thinking that it would be a wonderful idea if some of us breeders who love the doll-face Persians tried to get them their own registry, set apart from the peke-faced Persians. Now wouldn't that be something interesting to try to endeavor....
Actually that's not quite correct more then that has changed in the Persians - they have different coat textures now back then they were a lot thicker, they also had a lot more problems associated with their health - jaw problems due to different "fashions" being popular in the 60's/70's. I think it's hard to comment on such cats when you weren't breeding them or owning one. Of course I didn't but my Grandparents did.
Good luck with that - I would buy an airfare to the States and fight that tooth and nail!Originally Posted by StarrDazl
That us completely how I feel about breeding doll-faces. There is definitely nothing wrong with breeding the traditional Persians just because it's different. It's a similar scenario as with Siameses; some breed the modern show type, others breed traditional apple faces, but neither of them are wrong or bad. I was also thinking that it would be a wonderful idea if some of us breeders who love the doll-face Persians tried to get them their own registry, set apart from the peke-faced Persians. Now wouldn't that be something interesting to try to endeavor....
To be completely honest StarrDazl I think you are just posting to try and justify your desire to breed "Designer" kittens under the guise of "no I really want these cats to be a standard, look at how responsible I am". I think you realize beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you want to do is considered back yard breeding to the rest of the reputable breeding world and you don't want that label.
When I look at that Website all I see is the phrase "a fool and his money are soon parted". Those cats are bred for one purpose and one purpose only. TO MAKE MONEY. They are not bred to better any standard, they are not bred to even try to fight the good fight and get them included in the registry. They are bred because some rich executive wants his precious daughter to have a cute tiny cat.
I have no doubt that you will eventually get your hands on a breeding kitten of your choice, all backyard breeders do somehow, that's why there are so many of them. You will most likely never get one from the successful BYB's because you to them are competition in the "Designer" cat world. They don't breed to better anything but their own pocketbooks and why would they share in that little pot of gold they have cornered.
When I look at that Website all I see is the phrase "a fool and his money are soon parted". Those cats are bred for one purpose and one purpose only. TO MAKE MONEY. They are not bred to better any standard, they are not bred to even try to fight the good fight and get them included in the registry. They are bred because some rich executive wants his precious daughter to have a cute tiny cat.
I have no doubt that you will eventually get your hands on a breeding kitten of your choice, all backyard breeders do somehow, that's why there are so many of them. You will most likely never get one from the successful BYB's because you to them are competition in the "Designer" cat world. They don't breed to better anything but their own pocketbooks and why would they share in that little pot of gold they have cornered.
This thread has been edited to remove references to specific breeders as that is not allowed on TCS. Detrimental comments about a breeder can be considered slander and could cause legal issues for the site owner. Please refrain from "naming names".
Also, if you see a potential problem with a post, please report the post instead of posting to the thread. If you are not sure how to report a post, please see this thread:
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=185265
As this dicussion seems to have run its course and the comments are now getting a bit personal, I am now closing this thread.
Also, if you see a potential problem with a post, please report the post instead of posting to the thread. If you are not sure how to report a post, please see this thread:
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=185265
As this dicussion seems to have run its course and the comments are now getting a bit personal, I am now closing this thread.
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