Breeder vs. Vet

[Pootykins]

Hello. I would appreciate third party feedback please. I am a believer in science and experts. I believe both breeders and vets to be experts so I am surprised by the gap between their views in raising felines. My vet is a mom to several felines and she works at a feline only clinic. Further she attended a top notch vet school and she's cutting edge into research.

Two issues that have come up. The first is the age to neuter a male cat. I adopted a nine week old British Shorthair on Sept. 9th. The breeder noted he should not be altered before 10 months of age. My vet has cautioned me to not wait that long because it is very likely he will become more aggressive toward my five-year old female BSH and the odor of his urine will become nearly unbearable to live with. Additionally, the male urine smell could make my female feel intimidated from living in his "territory". My vet believes he should be neutered no later than six months max. She would prefer I neuter him by twelve weeks. I have found countless feline vet associations that endorse early spay/neuter. I will have to send certification to the breeder once I have my baby boy altered. I'm hoping if I choose to alter him between 12 - 15 weeks the breeder will not say I have broken the adoption contract. I found research on the CFA web site that disputes cats cannot be altered within four months of age.

The second issue is wet/dry food and dental health. My vet and myself feed our cats only canned food. My vet believes it is an old wives tale that dry food helps to clean feline teeth. I have found reams of research that justifies my vet's stance. Most cats don't fully chew dry food sufficiently to clean teeth as much as they move it around with their sand paper tongue and swallow. I no longer use dry food because I consider it cereal and cats are carnivores. I've also found breeders have an inherent distrust of dental cleaning under anesthesia, believing it to be too risky. Thus they heavily endorse dry food to clean the cat's teeth. And prefer to use antibiotics instead of tooth extraction.

I've worked with my vet for over thirty years and all of my purebred BSHs and Exotics (all rescues adopted over the age of two) had to have at least one dental for extractions due to gum disease, and this was during a time when I would leave down a bowl of dry food so they could snack. I could attempt to brush my kitten's teeth, but my vet said I'd need to do it every day to make a difference and it still may not prevent the need for dental work.

Suggestions, comments please? Curious to know what people are hearing and available research to pursue. I respect the breeder's opinions because she has been raising felines for several years. I have never paid to adopt a purebred kitten before so I don't want to discount the breeder's beliefs. Thank you.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi! I don't believe kibble has any value for a felines' dental health.

Additionally, canned food provides more moisture for a cat's digestive health, but all that said, I provide a little kibble for my boy, more as a treat because he grew up with it and likes it.

I'm not a fan of the procedures involved with dental cleaning, for example I've had cats come home too many times with no voice because the intubation was rough or not enough care was taken when the cat was turned over. However, the pain of bad teeth that need to be removed doesn't always get enough attention, and my furbabies get their cleanings by their vet as necessary .

When To Spay Or Neuter A Cat? – TheCatSite Articles

 

[carebearbaby1]

I recently got a Maine Coon kitten. My breeder requires them to be neutered by 6 months old. I neuter all my cats between 4-6 months old. The vet clinic that I work at also recommends this age range. Waiting past that can lead to spraying. In my opinion 12 weeks is too young they need that extra month or two to have proper muscle mass and bone growth as adults.
If you can afford all canned food, do that. Dental cleanings are very safe and the best way to clean built up tartar. There are water additives you can use to help prevent build up, or supplements you put in the food. Most cats don't need a lot of dental work anyway.

 

[Willowy]

I don't think you'll see any really bad behaviors before 10 months, especially because British Shorthairs are a slower-maturing breed. If you had him neutered immediately at 10 months I think it would be fine (if you want to avoid an argument with the breeder). But I also think neutering young is fine too. But the vet is being a bit dramatic by suggesting that he'll definitely go full tomcat by that age.

I've never worked closely with a breeder. But from perusing dog breeders' websites. . .many of them seem to be an odd bunch. They develop weird superstitions based on what works for them, and sometimes they'll do something to save money, because they have a lot of animals (like minimizing vaccines or using antibiotics for dental issues rather than a proper cleaning) and twist themselves up in knots trying to convince themselves that's what's actually best for the animals, eventually they do believe it and then they try to convince all their buyers to do that too, sometimes requiring it in the contract.

I'm particularly annoyed by breeders who require you to use NuVet or Life's Abundance. You think it's just a crass money grab, but when you talk to them, you can tell they're really True Believers. They probably sell Young Living on the side too .

Anyway, do what you've been doing. You might want to contact the breeder to see if neutering him younger will violate the contract or that's just her preference. If it's not in the contract, feel free to neuter him whenever you and your vet think is right. You don't have to worry about her feelings.

 

[Pootykins]

I don't think you'll see any really bad behaviors before 10 months, especially because British Shorthairs are a slower-maturing breed. If you had him neutered immediately at 10 months I think it would be fine (if you want to avoid an argument with the breeder). But I also think neutering young is fine too. But the vet is being a bit dramatic by suggesting that he'll definitely go full tomcat by that age.

I've never worked closely with a breeder. But from perusing dog breeders' websites. . .many of them seem to be an odd bunch. They develop weird superstitions based on what works for them, and sometimes they'll do something to save money, because they have a lot of animals (like minimizing vaccines or using antibiotics for dental issues rather than a proper cleaning) and twist themselves up in knots trying to convince themselves that's what's actually best for the animals, eventually they do believe it and then they try to convince all their buyers to do that too, sometimes requiring it in the contract.

I'm particularly annoyed by breeders who require you to use NuVet or Life's Abundance. You think it's just a crass money grab, but when you talk to them, you can tell they're really True Believers. They probably sell Young Living on the side too .

Anyway, do what you've been doing. You might want to contact the breeder to see if neutering him younger will violate the contract or that's just her preference. If it's not in the contract, feel free to neuter him whenever you and your vet think is right. You don't have to worry about her feelings.

Thank you so much Willowy! And I'm falling out of my chair with laughter because I've been buying my little guy Life's Abundance canned food!!! OMG, LOL. But I will say the ingredients are okay and it's less expensive than what I can find at local higher end stores. Some may clutch their purls, but I've been impressed with the new Cat Fancy "Naturals" that does not have grain, added starch, by-products or veggies. It's about the same price as Life's Abundance What is "the rest of the story" about Life's Abundance? I was really taken aback when I saw all the people products. I'll likely get my little guy fixed between 5 - 6 months. Seems like a good compromise. Thanks for making me snort with laughter. So glad I joined this site.

 

[Pootykins]

I recently got a Maine Coon kitten. My breeder requires them to be neutered by 6 months old. I neuter all my cats between 4-6 months old. The vet clinic that I work at also recommends this age range. Waiting past that can lead to spraying. In my opinion 12 weeks is too young they need that extra month or two to have proper muscle mass and bone growth as adults.
If you can afford all canned food, do that. Dental cleanings are very safe and the best way to clean built up tartar. There are water additives you can use to help prevent build up, or supplements you put in the food. Most cats don't need a lot of dental work anyway.

Thank you carebearbaby1. I really appreciate your input. I'll go with the 4-6 months. And I want his adult teeth to come in first too. He still has all of his baby teeth. My hope is any tartar build up can just be scraped off during his annual exam. I believe dental cleanings are safe, at least with a really good vet. But I do hear horror stories of cats lost during the procedure but I never hear if those cats had underlying health issues. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Pootykins]

Hi! I don't believe kibble has any value for a felines' dental health.

Additionally, canned food provides more moisture for a cat's digestive health, but all that said, I provide a little kibble for my boy, more as a treat because he grew up with it and likes it.

I'm not a fan of the procedures involved with dental cleaning, for example I've had cats come home too many times with no voice because the intubation was rough or not enough care was taken when the cat was turned over. However, the pain of bad teeth that need to be removed doesn't always get enough attention.

When To Spay Or Neuter A Cat? – TheCatSite Articles

Thank you Furballsmom. I'm sorry to hear your kitties have come home without a voice after their dental. Poor babies. I can vouch for intubation being uncomfortable. Fortunately my kitties have always done well. Perhaps just good luck.

 

[neely]

Welcome to TCS! I think if you talk to 10 different people you will get 10 different answers on the right age to neuter a male kitten. Personally I feel anytime between 5 months and 10 months would be acceptable but that's entirely up to you.

Regarding dental problems, genetics also plays a role, not just the type of food or tooth brushing. Our last two cats had FORL due in part to genetics. Since you mentioned your cats are British Shorthairs and Exotics which are brachycephalic breeds then you may be aware that when it comes to anesthesia there are certain types which should be avoided, e.g. ketamine. We have had three Persians and I always request a specific type of anesthesia for this reason.

Best of luck with your new kitten. Please be sure to post photos since we love pics.

 

[carebearbaby1]

Thank you carebearbaby1. I really appreciate your input. I'll go with the 4-6 months. And I want his adult teeth to come in first too. He still has all of his baby teeth. My hope is any tartar build up can just be scraped off during his annual exam. I believe dental cleanings are safe, at least with a really good vet. But I do hear horror stories of cats lost during the procedure but I never hear if those cats had underlying health issues. Thank you for your advice.

You don't want to just scrap off the tartar. Doing that leaves grooves in the enamel, which causes more build up and possibly cavities. The teeth must be polished and sealed, just like with people, after a cleaning.

 

[Willowy]

Oh, I'm sure Life's Abundance is a fine food! But it's not magic, and a breeder's guarantee shouldn't be based on feeding it.

One dog breeder I was looking at had a policy that they would replace the dog free of charge if you fed Life's Abundance exclusively or used NuVet daily and the dog died before age 12, of any cause except trauma (like getting hit by a car), because they believe in it that much!

 

[Antonio65]

I think that neutering your male cat just past or at 6 months of age might be fine. In my opinion, 10 months is too late and if the cat gets the habit to spray around the house, he might retain this habit even after the neutering.

As for the dental, I live in Italy, where this procedure is not often pursued. Over here people is less obsessed with this than in the US. I don't know who is on the right side, but of my two previous cats, only one had a cleaning done and only because she had a loose tooth and the vet chose to do the cleaning while she was removing the loose tooth under sedation.
The other cat never had a dental cleaning, and she still had all her teeth at 17 years.
Both cats had rather fine teeth at the end of their long life.

On the other hand, a young feral cat that I'm taking care of had to have all her teeth removed a month ago to a chronic gum inflammation. But I don't think that it has to do with what she's eating, because the other feral eats the same food and he's fine.

You can brush your cat's teet, if he allows you to, even daily or every other day. There are specific pastes that you can apply on teeth and gums with your finger of toothbrush and they should dissolve most of tartar or stuff on the cat's teeth through an enzymatic process.

 

[posiepurrs]

I am a retired breeder and I wholeheartedly agree with your vet - on every point. If neutering age requirement is not specified in the contract, you haven't broken it.

 

[LTS3]

I guess I was lucky with the breeder I chose and my vet. The breeder fed all her cats a raw diet so I continued to feed that when I got my Aby. My vet generally discourages clients from feeding raw but is fine with me feeding it. The breeder required that I neuter my cat by 6 months old. That's the age when my vet does neuters so it worked out. I sent the breeder the neuter confirmation form and then was able to get the paperwork to register my cat with the CFA. I didn't have to register my cat but I wanted to. My cat has never had a dental cleaning so far even though the breed is prone to dental issues. He has some gingivitis at the moment. I brush his teeth often. My other cat, a non-purebreed, has had a dental done in the past for resorptive lesions and did just fine.

I am a retired breeder and I wholeheartedly agree with your vet - on every point. If neutering age requirement is not specified in the contract, you haven't broken it.

Definitely read the breeder's contract to see if there's anything there about diet or neutering or anything else. If there is nothing in the contract that says you must feed X brand of food or must never have a dental procedure done, you can do whatever you want. You don't need to keep in contact with the breeder for any reason once you have the cat. Just be wary of posting pictures and info on social media because people have a way of finding things out. A few years ago a local woman was sued by the rescue she adopted her cat from because she took her cat outside and posted social media pictures of it. The rescue somehow saw the pictures and sued for breach of contract because the adoption contract specifically said any adopted cat cannot be taken outside for walks, play time, etc. A brief frolic outside may cost a woman her cat - The Boston Globe

 

[Furballsmom]

Fortunately my kitties have always done well. Perhaps just good luck.

Bless you, thank you!

I can't say it's (--dental issues) all genetics either, my Poppycat has had some teeth problems in past years, a reabsorption and such but lately he's been having wonderful checkups. I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing differently (although I've started to have some luck finding a wider variety of foods he'll actually eat (major happy dance!!) ).

 

[Dianne's Maine Coons]

Hi. As a breeder my vet neuters my kittens at 12 weeks old. It works well as the kittens recover quickly and are fully recovered before going to their forever homes. They are also vaccinated and chipped.

I feed my cats and kittens both wet and dry food. Some prefer the wet to the dry and vice versa so they have a choice.

I brush my cat's teeth with little silicone brushes that fit onto the end of your finger and a tooth paste designed for cats.
Most of the cats tolerate this and some seem to really like it.

(All of the above is just how I like to do things and others will have their own way of doing things)

 

[Kflowers]

Just our experience, our two boys began spray/marking at 9 months. One, sprayed the bed while we were in it. We moved the guest bedroom and his brother immediately sprayed it. Oh, and they got all the ladies pregnant too. Just saying, this is possible. I've heard some can make kittens as young as six months.

 

[lutece]

Two issues that have come up. The first is the age to neuter a male cat. I adopted a nine week old British Shorthair on Sept. 9th. The breeder noted he should not be altered before 10 months of age. My vet has cautioned me to not wait that long because it is very likely he will become more aggressive toward my five-year old female BSH and the odor of his urine will become nearly unbearable to live with. Additionally, the male urine smell could make my female feel intimidated from living in his "territory". My vet believes he should be neutered no later than six months max. She would prefer I neuter him by twelve weeks. I have found countless feline vet associations that endorse early spay/neuter. I will have to send certification to the breeder once I have my baby boy altered. I'm hoping if I choose to alter him between 12 - 15 weeks the breeder will not say I have broken the adoption contract. I found research on the CFA web site that disputes cats cannot be altered within four months of age.

Coming to this discussion late, I agree with the posters above (and with your vet) that neutering is perfectly fine at 12-15 weeks.

Also, the breeder shouldn't be placing her kittens at nine weeks. Although your cat will probably turn out fine (especially since you have another cat to teach him "cat manners"), breeders should as a rule wait to place their kittens until at least 12-14 weeks (14-16 is even better), when kittens are more socially and physically developed, the immune system is more mature, and kitten vaccinations are more likely to have caused an effective immune response. The fact that your breeder is placing kittens at nine weeks of age tells us that she is not really up to date on current recommendations and may be more of a "backyard breeder."

So, why is she recommending that the cat should not be altered before 10 months of age? I can think of several reasons:

• She might be an older breeder who is not really up on current research. There is a persistent belief (not supported by research) that early neutering leaves a male with more risk of urinary blockage as an adult... many older veterinarians still hang on to this belief, even my own vet (who is otherwise a very good vet).
• She might be a breeder who is working with European bloodlines and mostly gets her breeding stock from European breeders, in which case she may have heard from the European breeders that males shouldn't be neutered before 10 months. This is a very common belief in Europe, especially with breeds like the British Shorthair where the show standard favors a sexually mature male cat with a big broad head. I have talked to many serious breeders in Europe who think that an early neutered male doesn't get the chance to "develop physically" and think we are crazy in the US for doing early neutering.
• Finally, if she knows any dog breeders or has dogs herself, she may also be concerned because early neutering has been shown to have negative effects in some dog breeds. Dogs aren't the same as cats, however.

Regardless of the reasons behind her belief, there is abundant evidence that early neutering has no ill effect in the cat. Go with your vet's recommendation.

 

[Talien]

Just our experience, our two boys began spray/marking at 9 months. One, sprayed the bed while we were in it. We moved the guest bedroom and his brother immediately sprayed it. Oh, and they got all the ladies pregnant too. Just saying, this is possible. I've heard some can make kittens as young as six months.

It's actually possible as young as 4 months, though females that get pregnant that young are more likely to not survive delivery and the Kittens are more prone to birth defects and other abnormalities. Wierd things happen when a body that is still growing has to spend a significant amount of energy to grow babies.