Breed question

[rang_27]

We have a pair of cats that look Siamese, but they are long hair. We have had some debate about what breed they might be. Is there a breed that is a long hair siamese, or are they a mix? The female is pregnant and we are looking forward to seeing what she delivers. He may or may not be the father. We were told they were found outside. Here is are their pet finder links:

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16396449
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16396467

 

[white cat lover]

I was thinking a Balinese was essentially a longhaired Siamese, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[strange_wings]

^If they had the wedge head and oriental body type, maybe.
Otherwise, points don't mean siamese at all. They're just lovely seal point DLH and should really be advertised as such... The closest breed they somewhat resemble is a ragdoll, but even then they don't look that much like one.
They're a beautiful pair, though. I hope they can eventually move on to good homes - and they probably will because DMH/DLH pointed cats are rather flashy.

 

[railntrailcwgrl]

Originally Posted by strange_wings

^If they had the wedge head and oriental body type, maybe.
Otherwise, points don't mean siamese at all. They're just lovely seal point DLH and should really be advertised as such... The closest breed they somewhat resemble is a ragdoll, but even then they don't look that much like one.
They're a beautiful pair, though. I hope they can eventually move on to good homes - and they probably will because DMH/DLH pointed cats are rather flashy.

But couldn't there be some apple-head Siamese in there? Not all Siamese cats are the 'modern' wedge headed ones. The female looks A LOT a like my past kitty who was a Siamese+white DSH, only she has longer hair.

 

[goldenkitty45]

First one (female) is a seal point domestic longhair - pointed color doesn't make it a Siamese or Siamese mix unless one parent IS a Siamese.

The male is the same as the female in color (seal). But he looks like he could have a parent that is Siamese due to his more wedge shaped head.

If both are long hair, they just have parents who are either long hair or carrying the long hair gene.

They will have seal point kitten (and long hair) unless both are carrying the dilute gene - which will then produce a blue point.

But they still all will be domestic longhairs; just seal and maybe blue point cats.

IF you get any other colors in the litter other then seal/blue points - then you have a different father involved. If all of the kittens are born white you will know they will be pointed kittens (most likely).

 

[rang_27]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

First one (female) is a seal point domestic longhair - pointed color doesn't make it a Siamese or Siamese mix unless one parent IS a Siamese.

The male is the same as the female in color (seal). But he looks like he could have a parent that is Siamese due to his more wedge shaped head.

If both are long hair, they just have parents who are either long hair or carrying the long hair gene.

They will have seal point kitten (and long hair) unless both are carrying the dilute gene - which will then produce a blue point.

But they still all will be domestic longhairs; just seal and maybe blue point cats.

IF you get any other colors in the litter other then seal/blue points - then you have a different father involved. If all of the kittens are born white you will know they will be pointed kittens (most likely).

She had 3 white kittens on Sunday. I think they will probably all be pointed. We are sort of guessing they are his kittens, but since we were told they were found outside we are not 100% sure.

 

[goldenkitty45]

You will know in a few weeks when the seal or blue color starts coming in on the points. I think the ears and face colors show up before the feet do.

 

[lyrajean]

No answer to your question, but just wanted to say those are some gorgeous cats between the long fur and the pointed markings. Vibes on the siblings and kits getting homes.

Would love to see fuzzy white kitten pics!

 

[rang_27]

They are in a foster home, but if I get any pics I'll post them.

 

[kylew]

Originally Posted by Rang_27

Is there a breed that is a long hair siamese, or are they a mix?
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16396449
http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16396467

In a word, yes

That is precisely the definition of a Balinese. They are genetically identical to Siamese except for the longer hair, which is actually medium length rather than full on long hair. Other than that they are the same; same pointing, same blue eyes, same personality, just slightly less chatty. They are amazing creatures

Just one man's very biased opinion!

Kyle

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by KyleW

In a word, yes

That is precisely the definition of a Balinese. They are genetically identical to Siamese except for the longer hair, which is actually medium length rather than full on long hair. Other than that they are the same; same pointing, same blue eyes, same personality, just slightly less chatty. They are amazing creatures

Just one man's very biased opinion!

Kyle

While no Bali or Siamese expert, I wouldn't say genetically identical. The body and head type are very similar as the standards have a great number of similarities. However, the two breeds do not draw from exactly the same gene pool, so they are not genetically identical.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Ferris is right - it might have been a case of a Siamese breeding with a mixed long hair cat and thus the long hair gene got in the gene pool. As long as like cats are bred together, the cat will resemble a Siamese in type, but carry the long hair gene and can produce a "long hair" Siamese; which is now called Balinese.

A lot of short hair cats probably have a long hair in the background - its recessive and no one really knows where the long hair gene originated but its in every breed.

 

[kylew]

I agree with both of you. That's why I said "they are genetically identical to Siamese except for the longer hair". I'm not geneticist, but I assumed the hair thing would be caused by a difference in the gene thing

Bali's did indeed start showing up unexpectedly, and undesirably, in siamese litters. I think it was back in the 40's. Most didn;t like it but thankfully some did and bread to the long hair trait.

Here's the CFA version of the history of Bali's.

http://www.cfa.org/breeds/profiles/a.../balinese.html

 

[goldenkitty45]

But genetically they are not the same as Siamese was there and the long hair cats were bred (or random bred) into the lines.

 

[sohni]

The link posted is pretty interesting. I have read it, and admit I skimmed a bit since it is very long, but generally it does state that the Balinese are a result of a mutation of the Siamese breed.

All of this changed forever in the 1950s when two Siamese breeders, Mrs. Marion Dorsey of Rai-Mar Cattery in California and Mrs. Helen Smith of MerryMews Cattery in New York, both found longhairs in their Siamese litters and were quite taken by their beauty. Rather than petting them out as others had done, they began line breeding to produce longhair Siamese.

Eventually, there were were outcrosses, where the differences in genetics would come in.

When it became apparent that there was a need to outcross to expand the gene pool, she convinced fellow breeders to exchange cats and kittens and share stud service. She, herself, worked extensively in helping other breeders establish and expand their lines.

But more recently, they were bred back to the Siamese to improve type. Because they can only be shown in the four Siamese colours, and they can be traced back through Siamese lines, they still retain status as a Siamese mutation and not a hybrid.

Leslie strongly encouraged the practice of breeding back to the Siamese parent breed to improve type. At this time many Balinese more strongly resembled the old style "applehead" Siamese than the modern Siamese.

 

[nekochan]

Cats can have that pattern (pointed) without being any particular breed/mix so they could just be pointed domestic cats with an ancestor somewhere further back who was a Siamese or one of the other pointed types.

 

[rang_27]

So here are the long awaited kitten photos. I'm not expert, but it looks like 2 with points like Mom & one with lighter points.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Looks like 2 seals and a blue point to me. They are really cute