Boo-Boo's getting his Epogen! (Health updates)

[mews2much]

I was just going threw Cocos vet records and her PCV was 18 when she had the severe anemia in 2001.
If you would like to see i can post what her other numbers were then.
I am glad he is feeling better.

 

[snickerdoodle]

Yes I would be interested to know her other PCV numbers. Boo's lowest was 11%, but his BUN was also high then so I guess he wasn't feeling like running around. Then his BUN came down and he felt better, then the collapsing started.

He has not collapsed at ALL. He's been doing very well. That's about it for updates, he is still begging to go lay on the front porch (Already 82 degrees!!) and while sunshine is important, I think maybe today we will stay inside and just let him sit in the window. The mosquitoes are terrible, have to get some of those skeeter donuts to put around the house (Mom has a pond with a waterfall, three birdbaths and another birdbath/fountain)

We had a very great weekend. Thank you all.

 

[mews2much]

I hope he keeps feeling better.
It is 81 here right now an dwe are going out now before it hots over 100.
I will post some of the numbers later.

 

[ldg]

I'm so glad he's feeling better!

Our Tuxie had severe anemia - different problem, very young cat. We fought it for four years.

For those who don't know, PCV stands for Packed Cell Volume and refers to the red blood cell count - it is otherwise known as an Hematocrit. Refers to the same thing.

Actually, normal PCV is 30-40. 25 or below is technically anemic. 25-30 is OK, depending upon the cat. (This is why it's so important to get baseline blood work done at various points in your cat's life. Cats born feral tend to have lower normal levels).

Anyway, mid-teens or lower is not sustainable for a long time, and under 25 is dangerous and needs very close monitoring. Tuxie, at his worst, was 7, and he hit 11 or 12 a number of times.

"Erythropoietin" is the name of a hormone the body produces that regulates red blood cell production. Some doctors (or vets) refer to the name of the drug Epogen as "erythropoietin" because that's basically what it is. Epogen and Procrit are the brand names: Epoetin alfa is the generic name.

Cats have far more complicated blood than humans do - blood transfusions can often only be given once; after that, a cat will often reject the transfusion (the blood will coagulate during the mixing, so it cannot be delivered). I don't know about humans developing "immunity" to Epogen, but it is definitely a risk with cats, so it is best to wait until you have no choice.

Congrats on the rise to 19!

I know that our Tuxie, when he was anemic, would ignore us and leave the room, and not want attention. When we got to the point that we were only at the vet every couple of months, Tuxie wanting to be alone was an "alert" to us that we had to go get his hematocrit taken.

I REALLY hope the Pet Tinic keeps working! It didn't for Tuxie - we also tried an iron supplement we had compounded into tuna flavor. His condition was quite different though.

If your vet says it's safe, I would consider a higher caloric food - I don't know if Boo is already on a/d, but if c/d is safe, it's what we feed our kitties, and they did gain weight on it, so we had to adjust how much we fed them. Tuxie, on the other hand, we have continued to encourage to eat - we're packing as much weight on him as we can, in case we ever go through another bout. He got down to 7-something pounds, and was skin and bones. Since his disease was diagnosed in 2003 (early 2004?), we managed to get him - at his last vet visit a few weeks ago - back up to 11 pounds 3 oz, and a hematocrit of 38!

When Tuxie's bouncing off the walls, we joke that he "must be 42!" (Referring to his hematocrit level

).

I hope we'll soon be applauding Boo crossing that 25 line!

 

[snickerdoodle]

Thank you so much LDG. And yes, we are giving him C/D dry and I am trying to keep the Purina One to a minimum of a treat after fluids. But since he knows about the Purina he's a little uppity about the C/D. But he WILL eat it. And I never tried the A/D and he was never on it, and I think that is only for temporary feeding situations? The K/D was a total no go, he wouldn't eat that even when he was starving. The Hi Tor Neo was the miracle food and he loves it. I am getting ready to give him some more now.

We were surprised at such a rise in his PCV. We have never done a test to find out if he has non-regenerative anemia, but perhaps it was due to testing him so often at the old vet that his poor body couldn't keep up with the blood being drawn? Mind you they didn't do the prick of an ear and a drop of blood. It was a blood draw. A couple of times he came home with bruises. (He gets very ornery, or WAS very ornery with that vet anyway)

I hope the Pet Tinic keeps working. I am to give .25mL twice a day, and then the vet mentioned giving 1mL ... I was like, 1mL Are you sure? That's a full dropper..... that's not even what's on the back of the label. I am going to ask again before I do anything like that.

Things continue to go well. He is grooming his legs now

So happy to see. I wiped him down with a warm baby wipe rinsed in water to get some of that orange stuff off of his inner thighs and belly. I have no idea what that is. a Friend said possibly dirt, but parts of it are kind of waxy. I wiped and got a good deal off and he loved it.

His itching and restlessness have almost completely gone away.

Actually, I haven't caught him jumping up and scratching/biting/chewing/licking frantically in... a week or two!!!

Thank you everyone <3 <3 <3

 

[ldg]

Don't know what that was on his leg - I'd ask the vet. But glad he's grooming again!

Yes, a/d is usually a short term thing to boost weight. c/d has a fairly high fat/calorie content, thus kitties tend to gain weight on it if they eat the same amount of whatever they were eating before - but it's designed to be pH neutral, so help avoid issues with crystals in such in urine. I imagine that's a good diet for kitties with kidney problems.

Our boys all had urinary tract issues - I'm not familiar with what's involved with CRF (yet, knock wood), but we stopped all treats, actually. We simply put their c/d dry in a container and act like we're giving them a treat.

Just make sure he stays hydrated. You can always try adding a little water to the dry and microwaving it and turning it into a warm mush.

))))))))

In a non-regenerative anemia, the bone marrow responds inadequately to the increased need for red blood cells. Anemias due to hemorrhage (an accident that causes excessive bleeding - or taking lots of blood!) or hemolysis (where a disease is causing the red blood cells to die before they usually do) are usually regenerative.

Anemias that are caused by decreased erythropoietin or an abnormality in the bone marrow are nonregenerative.

Given the increase in his PCV with the iron supplement, we have to guess the problem is regenerative, or it likely wouldn't be helping.

That was the problem with Tuxedo - they never figured out the disease that was causing his anemia - he had nonregenerative anemia (we did a bone marrow aspiration), but his bone marrow was still capable of producing red blood cells. In the end what saved his life was treating him with the blood transfusion and Epogen (and he needed Nupogen for a while too - that was to boost his white blood cell count) - that basically "kick-started" his bone marrow again - and THEN treating it like they would Feline Hemolytic Anemia (an autoimmune disorder, but a type of regenerative anemia where the red blood cells die too soon). Thank goodness we had a fabulous vet.

But yeah - if he's producing red blood cells, just more slowly than he should, I'd think a lot of blood draws would contribute to the problem. On the other hand - Tuxie did have weekly hematocrits for a while, and I don't know how often they were pulling blood from your Boo. But yes, to do a PCV, they need to pull a tube of blood.

Whatever it is that's doing it - it's thrilling!

Just do know that if he starts wanting to be off on his own again, I'd take that as a sign that his PCV is falling.

How often does this vet want to test his PCV?

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Ok, completely off subject, but what is your weebly blog? I've seen you mention it a couple of times now, but don't know what you are referring to!

Also, am finding your discussion with LDG fascinating! It's amazing what I'm learning just be reading stuff on this site!!!!!

 

[snickerdoodle]

I'm sorry! http://graysonsedge.weebly.com/ That is his website or here is an actual link http://graysonsedge.weebly.com/

The vet was wanting to take his blood weekly on the Epogen, but I will have to call her tomorrow to see how often she would like to take it since he is not on the Epogen yet. I am guessing every 2 weeks unless his behavior changes.

My old vet was completely against me feeding him any C/D. He really wanted him on K/D and I kept telling him, Look, he won't eat it. The vet was even more against Cat Chow (But I agreed seeing as how he would not RX -any- phos binders, said they were more toxic and caused more problems than helped, and he wasn't having problems eating at the time) so I went here and then Thank God found Tanya's CRF Site and the Hi Tor Neo ... and he loves it. His BUN dropped to 77 and I liked to have fainted.

The old vet had never heard of it, and my new vet hadn't either but was very interested in keeping the info I brought about it to research it so she could tell other CRF kitty owners about it! I think she likes to research and is very proactive, so I am thinking of telling her about Tanya's CRF site so she can look around. I'm sure she knows all of it, but can't hurt right?

We will ask the vet about the orange waxy stuff on him. I know he still has stud tail. At least, I think it is, that was so low on the priority when I saw the new vet I didn't ask about the orange dirt or the stud tail. He has the stud tail looking stuff on the back of his rear legs as well. They look like little black heads all over. His tail is oily. I am going to wipe it down with a warm rinsed baby wipe later this evening.

The C/D was prescribed for his struvite crystals, and it worked wonders. I was concerned the old vet told me it could cause it to go the other way too far and cause stones, which he know has, but we have no real clue if that's why he has stones. When he was diagnosed, we let him continue to eat it, but then tried to get him and the other cat in the house off of it because she was getting super fat. I tried weighing her (Both of us together) today, and it claimed she was at most 7 pounds and some ounces. Bald face lie! She HAS to be more like 10-12 pounds!!!

But I am letting him eat the C/D again because the phos at a min is .08 and max is .8 so I was staring at it one day at the vet whilst waiting to pay for it and thinking "Why did I take Boo off of this?? It seems decent enough, if he wants it and is eating primarily Hi Tor?"

one of those doh moments

I am wondering if it is possible that two different vets can get two different numbers. Such a rise was just so curious to me, I wondered... has it been 19%, maybe the old vet's tests were off? Were we taking too much blood? Maybe the pet tinic DID help? Within 2 weeks, maybe... I was thinking a lot of questions. The new vet is happy about it, and I loved her graph reading she did for the PCV. The ISTAT Machien I don't trust so much anymore. Her graph machine and stick test looked much more... I don't know, concise somehow.

Anyway. Gotta try to get some more sleep! Boo woke me up for some water and C/D!

<3 <3

 

[mews2much]

The values can be different at each vet.
What numbers do you want me to post from Stripe?
I have the numbers from when she went in a coma also.
I also have Meeko and Cocos numbers when they had severe anemia.

 

[ldg]

The numbers can definitely be different at each vet. Every time our vet took blood for a hematocrit, he'd always take enough to send it out to the lab. They're very good at our vet, but he explained all the things that could cause a wrong reading - and there are a number of them. (It has nothing to do with the amount of blood taken, but the way the test is run). We always officially went with the number from the lab, which was sometimes 1 or 2 different from the reading at the vet. But when you're down at 11 or 12, a reading of 9 or 14 is very different!

I'd go with a confirmatory hematocrit within another week or two, especially if his behavior stays more normal. And I expect you're right - especially if his hematocrit is on the rise, she'll probably only want to do it every couple of weeks.

As to the c/d - the formulation has changed within the past... couple of years. It was originally for cats with struvite crystals. x/d was for calcium oxalate crystals. What causes them is a genetic disposition combined with stress and diet - combinations of basically magnesium and other minerals in the diet. Because they had the problem you mentioned (c/d could fix the struvite, but may swing a cat to having oxalate), they got rid of x/d altogether, and rather than trying to "move" the pH of the urine one way or the other through diet, they changed the formulation of c/d to be pH neutral.

The biggest help, actually, in preventing crystals is keeping urine dilute - so the more water the better. (That's why some people and vets maintain that the worst wet food is better than the best dry food for the overall health of a cat... different forum for that discussion LOL). We continued to free feed our cats dry food, but added one wet meal a day. Then we went to two wet meals a day. We have a fat kitty, so we've stopped free feeding altogether, and we're feeding 2-3 meals of wet a day (amount for 24 hours divided into however many portions we're going to feed that day), and a little bit of pre-measured dry (individual for each cat). The amount of pee I'm scooping has gone up dramatically, so clearly we're keeping their pee a lot more dilute!

 

[snickerdoodle]

Stripe's anemia #'s would be great to see and also her BUN if you don't mind. Thank you <3

And Thanks LDG I didn't know about the C/D changing the formula. I am kind of glad to hear that. I am going to somehow force my mother to allow me to let Chickster eat up high so Boo cannot get to her Purina One. C/D Does NOT agree with her and it's causing her constipation, and apparently she was having a fight with her tooshie earlier because she had something that would not come out, and finally did. Upon examination I found it was primarily fur with poo wrapped around it. Poor thing!! It was very firm so I gave her a bit of miralax. I brush her with a slicker and a softer baby type brush but don't get much off of her! It was her fur, too.
So I really need to get her back fully on the Purina One (Mixed in a bowl right now because Boo is sneaking treats of his own) It's just gone nutso again so I'll have to straighten it out.

Thanks guys <3

 

[snickerdoodle]

Ugh... what a morning and it's only 8:31. I've been home for approximately one hour and already feels like a whole day!

Boo stayed in the tub FOREVER and wouldn't drink the stream of water until I went and got him a glass with ice in it. He drank that fine. Then he just sat there. I finally dried him off and got him his fluids. THOSE went very badly. I stuck him 4 times, 2 of which didn't even break the skin, 1 which something happened and I heard a very muffled hissing and Boo started growling, so I took it out and it bled a tiny drop, but now it's all crinkly. Air? I switched sides and ignored his ticked off mew and got it the last time, though too far to the front, more than I like, and some has gone down into his front leg.

Poor baby

I feel so so horrible when I do that to him. Then he ate his little treat of Purina, then a nice bit of Hi Tor, and wanted to go outside. WELL:

I got my cup of coffee and we went and sat on the front porch. Everything was swell. Chickster got in the open window and I said well, .. you know it's pretty safe here right now, and she's real skitterish, so I'll just see if she wants to come out, so I raised the screen on my window. It took her about 10 minutes to finally jump out, and every single sound made her jump sky high. Then she meandered over towards Boo.

Don't know if Boo didn't realize it was her or did realize it was her and was pissed off that she was taking "his time" outside, but he went all out and tried to attack the pure t woman out of her. I grabbed him before he got a real good smack in but I think he caught her once or twice on the neck with his claws. When she stops being mad at ME and I can touch her I will check it out. She flew back in the window and Boo was growling and madder than spit. So, I said that's enough, let's go inside. He yowled at the door for awhile but he had a good few minutes out there, we may go out later this evening if it cools off or rains.

I didn't yell at him or anything, but I did put my hand over the back of his neck to hold him in place while Chickster got away. Boo is not happy with me right now and has his back turned while he sits in a cardboard box that just happened to have a pillow thrown in it. He's got it tilted now and ... ugh, I'm afraid if I try to adjust it he'll just give up sleeping there.

He is starting to yowl if I leave the room for too long. Like if I go downstairs to fix his food or water, or warm his fluids, he'll start yowling. Not a real painful "OMG something happened I fell and can't get up" yowl, but a "Maaaaaaaaaama... maaaaaamaaaa..." And as soon as I come around the corner he starts purring. So.

As far as energy I know good dern well he has some after that attack! I am going to try to get some rest because I think that upset me more than it did either of them. Being an "only child" for nearly 11 or so years really does a number on Chickster I guess? She wants to cuddle and be nice with him, but he just ... won't have it.

Anyway. Things are good for now. Hoping the Hi Tor is delivered today. UPS always delivers it RIGHT before I start freaking out LOL

Thanks guys

 

[ldg]

I bet you are more upset than either of them! Glad it all worked out and everyone wound up back inside though!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I guess Boo's just not used to seeing Chickster outside, so didn't think it was her, poor girl. Once they got inside, was he still trying to attack her?

By the way, have you tried a Zoom Groom on her? They work really well to get lots of fur off. I thought I was getting lots of fur off of my babies by brushing and brushing, then followed up with a Zoom Groom, and couldn't believe how much more came off. They sell them at Petco, etc. on the internet, wherever, and they also massage while they brush. You can check them out on YouTube. They're amazing! (I don't think they would work on Boo though...short to medium hair only, I'm thinking)

 

[snickerdoodle]

Chickster kind of has long fluffy hair. "Medium" is a better term but it's not short. Boo was fine with her once he came in, I guess he was just surprised to see her out there. Last time he saw her outsdie was when she was less than a year old.
Zoom Groom sounds interesting. The slicker doesn't get much off of her. Thankfully not having too much trouble with her long butt hair yet.
Getting a little worried about Boo's hollering when I go out of a room. He was on my desk, then I went to get his pet tinic downstairs, and he starts really loudly yowling, and I go back up (Only barely a minute gone) and he's sitting on the side of the tub. He's just had water (Out of a glass, on the tub) I .. am not sure what to think about this. Will have to tell the vet.

 

[ldg]

I would mention it. Our Spooky gets vocal whenever her teeth hurt (we finally figured out). Of the bunch, she has the worst teeth. She's 8 this year, and has already had 4 teeth pulled - and that's with annual dentals from year 2.

Of course - he could just be going through a clingy phase as he's starting to feel better.

Continued !!!

 

[snickerdoodle]

Well, I picked up some C/D canned today for Boo because his Hi Tor hasn't been delivered yet. My fault, really, I should've just got it sooner, but I miscalculated. In any case, he's already eaten a HALF OF A CAN of this wet food. I cannot believe that! Either it tastes really good or he was just really wanting some wet. I'm glad to see him eating like that. I guess maybe the Hi Tor got a little boring.

He's doing well. No problem with his lungs that's for sure, with his yowling for water. he;s doing well and is now blocking the monitor... so I must go. :T <3 <3

 

[snickerdoodle]

I just checked Boo's mouth to brush his teeth (Supposed to brush once a day with this C.E.T. Tartar Control Enzymatic Toothpaste for Dog's and Cats. I am calling the vet and will ask about this, but .. I looked in his mouth and it just does not look good. His extraction site is still a little red, and it has a gray scabby looking thing over it. There is also gray looking spots on his back teeth and now is opposite upper canine has a black line at the gumline. His breath is WICKED BAD. Smells like a dead animal. I was so hoping not to have to consider having all his teeth taken out, and may not yet, but I will certainly have to get this looked at. I know if I leave this too long it could get into his blood system and be fatal. Nothing is bleeding, but I bet LDG is right, he is yowling because of his teeth (And anytime he's howled it's because something wasn't really right)

Poor baby. Please send vibes that whenever I next visit that things go ok.

 

[otto]

Thanks for the update!

My vet told me yesterday that Hills is selling the c/d in three oz. cans now. that is very good news for me, as I would really like for Mazy to be on canned food. She likes the c/d multicare canned foods, but does not like it after it has been opened and refrigerated, even warmed up.

 

[snickerdoodle]

Wow thanks for that information. If I can get some of those smaller cans I could stock up on a few for "treats" and what not and not have to worry about the fridge. Yeah, Boo hates refrigerated stuff, and it's not an exact science about the microwaved bits, sometimes he likes em, sometimes he could leave 'em. I am going to try to buy another hi Tor case this week so I have PLENTY and then can keep the food train supply going without any delays this time. Hate it when I miscalculate!