Bombay or Burmese?

[toojustbe]

Of course I know there's not really purebred cats in shelters and etc ... but I think my cat is majority British Bombay. He fits it to the tea! I picked him up at a Pet Smart event in North Carolina in the US.. where I still am. The information left with him said that his former owners were in the military and moved but couldn't take him overseas with them. He adopted me! Reached out of the cage and hugged me. I'd just like to know other opinions on him even though I think I've got it pretty right. Here are a million pictures (out of a trillion more) to look at! Let me know what you think. He's a bit overweight, on a diet, and not to happy about the new diet food. We're getting there. He's not even close to how tubby he used to be at least.

0zzy_n.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

ozzy10_n.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

ozzyyyyyu.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

ozzzyyyy54_n.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

ozzzzzz_n.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

zzzyo.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

oz.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

ozz.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

ozzy.jpg

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

DSC_3430.JPG

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

DSC_3431.JPG

• toojustbe
• Sep 19, 2013

 

[maewkaew]

You've adopted a beautiful cat!   ( and will be even more gorgeous when he slims down to a slender panther-like look)   He seems like a sweetheart and  in some of those photos he has an intelligent expression.

  The odds are astronomically against him having black self Asian (Bombay) ancestors from the UK.     I doubt there even ARE any in NC.  . . There seem to be a lot of  people in the USA who think their black cat is a "British Bombay" or   has a parent of that breed,  since most black 'moggies' look more like the UK type of Bombay than the U.S. type with their shorter faces, so I guess it is easier to see them as possibly being the British kind.   ( and many people don't know what a tiny percent of cats are any breed.)

What they don't realize is,  those cats are not seen much on this side of the Atlantic.  Well, that is an understatement.     I do not know of any real British Bombays in the U.S.     That doesn't mean there definitely are zero.  Some people may have immigrated from there and brought along a pet Bombay cat.   but if so,  it's probably very few and they're likely altered and  not running around mating and creating British Bombay mixes.   

  Some  European Burmese have been imported to the U.S. but not a lot, and  seems  to be mostly the different colors like red. .   I have not heard of anyone in North America breeding  Bombays from Euro Burmese.  

So,  it's hard to say what your cat's ancestry is but it's almost certainly not black self Asian.  If he has any Bombay it would be more likely the U.S. ones.   But it may be more  like the Western ancestors of the U.S. Bombays - the black DSHs or American Shorthairs ( which is the pedigree version of the DSHs from the U.S.)  that were bred to Burmese to create the Bombay. 

He could have some southeast Asian ancestry.  but if so it would be more likely some Siamese. 

He has some amazing colored eyes .   Very different color from Bombay eyes which are ideally copper.  that's like the opposite of these sort of cool blueish green eyes.    You may find refernce to British Bombays sometimes having green eyes  but  1.  remember there are virtually none of them in the U.S.  and 2. even if there were,   if the eyes are sometimes greenish, it's more of a greenish gold.   it's coming  from Burmese which have gold eyes or sometimes greenish gold. 

http://www.catinfo.org   Here is a link to a really good site from a vet with a lot of information about cat nutrition including helping cats safely get to a healthy weight.   

 

[toojustbe]

Thanks!
I've ALWAYS seen Siamese in him... He has the siamese personality and some of the features in the face I see. He is so clingy and just meows on and on. He actually lays on his back with his belly up (he loves belly rubs) looking like road kill. He closes his eyes and if you don't respond to him quickly he will open one eye and peek around to see if you noticed him yet. He has to go to the bathroom with me every time... We have conversations all day long. Stuff like that.
Yes the eyes are the one thing that always throw me off. They're reptilian lol!
I could see him being Siamese mixed with something but am not sure how he would've ended up with a black coat and paw pads.
He does have a couple of tiny sections in his fur in random spots where there are a few white hairs in a specific area... But not like a spot or patch.. Or design. Just some white hairs close to each other spread out mixed in with the black in a random area.... but it is highly unnoticeable unless you get very close to him.

Could he have a Siamese mix parent(s)?
Or? What would the guess be for what his parents could've been?

 

[maewkaew]

   The Siamese pointed  (aka colorpoint) coat pattern is caused by the cat inheriting 2 copies of the recessive pointed allele "c^s"  -- one  from each parent.   That means that if a pointed cat such as a Siamese  mates with a non-pointed cat  that is not carrying the c^s    allele,  none of the kittens would be pointed.  All of them would  get one copy of  c^s    from the pointed parent ,  but it takes 2 copies for the pattern to show. 

A seal point cat is basically a black cat that has   c^s/c^s   

 If a seal point Siamese mated with a black cat that did not have cs ,  all the kittens  would be black .     If the black cat was carrying c^s,  some of the kittens would probably be pointed and some wouldn't.  

This also means that the c^s  can be carried and passed down hidden for many generations ,  until 2 cats carrying it happen to meet up and mate,  and if both give the cs to a kitten ,    the kitten will turn out pointed.  (and many people will think it's a "Siamese" ,  or think " the mom must have mated with a Siamese",  but really it might be the most recent Siamese ancestor was decades ago.  

So anyway,  yes he could have Siamese  ancestry,  even potentially a Siamese parent. though it's not as common as it used to be years ago when fewer people got their cat neutered,  and more people let even pedigreed cats roam around and mate with the moggies down the road.  

But  Siamese is one of the breeds where there do seem to be quite a few mixes that probably have a pretty recent ancestor of the breed   just due to them being popular,  and having been popular for so long  

Sounds like he TOTALLY acts like one anyway! 

 

[toojustbe]

Yes! That makes so much more sense now... I was just comparing him to a seal pointed Siamese cat right before I read this. Thanks

What kind of black cat would you suspect to be the parent if the other parent was a seal pointed Siamese?

 

[toojustbe]

Actually yes he does act like a Siamese.
This morning I hit snooze and slept in. He decided to wake me up my lightly slapping my face, just once, just enough to make me open my eyes and look at him. Ever time I fell back asleep he slapped me the same exact way! Haha

 

[maewkaew]

Yes! That makes so much more sense now... I was just comparing him to a seal pointed Siamese cat right before I read this. Thanks

Yes, it's all a matter of the genetics and what genes they get. There are non-pointed cats that have a lot more Siamese in them than some pointed cats  Look at Himalayans -- their few Siamese ancestors are from something like   70 years ago. then they were bred to Persians for many generations,   so they are really considered a category of Persians.   An Oriental Shorthair in one of their 300+ non-pointed colors / patterns,  has a lot bigger percent of Siamese ancestry than a Himalayan Perisian even though the Himi is pointed.     Orientals are mostly Siamese. 

Well,  something similar is true for  non-pedigreed cats but their ancestry isn't recorded.  With the non- pointed cats ,    you can't tell for sure from the coat pattern that they had any Siamese ancestors.     . With the pointed cats you can tell they had some  Siamese ancestors, you just can't tell from the color pattern how far back the Siamese were.  

When looking at moggies , you  can try to guess from things like body type,  head shape,  voice ,  and to some extent temperament.    (but  moggies can vary in temperament a lot so I wouldn't go by that alone. 

 It's still basically a guess.   

What kind of black cat would you suspect to be the parent if the other parent was a seal pointed Siamese?

  IF a seal point Siamese were one parent (which is a pretty major "If" and there is no way to know ) ,  and the other parent is a black cat,  the most likely kind of black cat would be a black domestic shorthair  -- a "moggy" --  meaning no particular breed.  . 

Cats aren't like dogs that are usually a breed or a mix of different breeds.    97% of "owned" cats are no particular breed -- usually meaning their ancestry is many many generations of random-breeding cats from their part of the world.     

Actually yes he does act like a Siamese.
This morning I hit snooze and slept in. He decided to wake me up my lightly slapping my face, just once, just enough to make me open my eyes and look at him. Ever time I fell back asleep he slapped me the same exact way! Haha

 

[toojustbe]

Ahh, yes. That's exactly what my cat did. For the past two days now. It's new.

But! If it makes any difference.... His fur looks much more chocolate brown when he lays in the light ...or light from the sun.

 

[toojustbe]

How specifically can you tell by the voice?

 

[maewkaew]

The Voice.   Siamese very often have a voice that is more nasal and lower pitched than most cats from other parts of the world.   and  often with a vibrato or scratchy quality.   Siamese cat voices are often compared to a human baby's cry. 

Burmese also tend to have sort of scratchy voices. 


 Siamese cat voices


 ( the meezer emerges from under the sheets and meows at about 1:22 ) 


   ( this one is a cat I know very well! ) 


Re  the coat color,  many black cats do look rather brownish  in the sun.  and in fact sometimes their coats can even turn  reddish brown from being in the sun a lot!   

 

[toojustbe]

He meows just like the first cat, even with the purr... but a bit higher pitched.
I swear, my cat can reach SO many different octaves though. He's like a mezzo-soprano or something

The second video... oh boy. YES! Just not that deep. He does have the crackle in the voice when he wants to....

.....usually if food is involved or he's begging for attention with a certain desperate look in his eye.

As for the third video, he does that LONG dragged out meow every day! I love it! He does it differently for wanting certain things. Its like southern drawl.
A version of this long meow I call "droning meow" because it reminds me of a drone or a robot or something android-like haha. He does it when he's looking for me, like he's saying "mommm???!!" in cat language.

He's like a baby and I know what each individual cry means except its various meows.

 

[belfegora]

this is my little cute kitten <3

we've found him few months ago and are literally in love with him.. he was so tiny and scared.. i think someone dumped him, because he couldn't manage in nature at all. On the other hand, he got used to us (people) very quickly..

Anyway, I thought that he's quite extraordinary cat: he's always playful (although he still didn't learn not to play rough), he needs to see everything, know everything.. he can't be let alone for a minute, he's ''crying'' and begging us to come back. he needs to be occupied all the time.

he's always looking for a warm place to sleep.

I don't think he's a pure breed of any kind, but all of these characteristics suggest that he might have something to do with burmese, or even british bombay. even if not, because of all of the similarities (and I don't mean looks only) I think it's a good place to start seeking advices about how to make our life together as happy and delightful as possible...

anyway, what do you think?

20130928_145047.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

20130928_204551.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

20131008_112523.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

20131026_120205.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

20131026_120225.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

IMG-20131114-WA0002.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

IMG-20131114-WA0006.jpg

• belfegora
• Nov 16, 2013

 

[maewkaew]

 Well he sure is CUTE!   in fact he is very handsome!   and sounds like a very sweet kitten.

Looking at his body, legs and the length of the head especially as seen in that profile view of him standing up,   I would believe he could possibly have some ancestry from their  cousins the Siamese before  I would think of Burmese / Bombay. 

That's especially if you happen to be in North America where Burmese are bred to be  cobby with smaller ears, more rounded faces,  much shorter muzzles.   He definitely doesn't look like the American Burms  & Bombays .   and I don't even know if there ARE any British  Bombays over here.  Oh,  there may be a few pets that people who immigrated brought over.  but they would be extremely rare and probably neutered.  

Also makes a difference where you are in another way -- since in some parts of the world it is normal for cats to be a bit longer and more slender bodied and refined than the average in some other countries.   so those things wouldn't mean anything as far as breed.      But the way he looks right now , I could believe in some possible oriental type ancestry,  if you are from a place where that body type and more elongated head is NOT typical for the local cats.    ( but kittens can go through various stages of shapes as they grow up.  so it's not certain yet how he will turn out as an adult).

And  cats do vary in their individual personalities.  so definitely some cats with no pedigree ancestry are stil attention-needy,  smart, active etc.like cats from Siamese or Burmese ancestors ( Actually  those things are common to many kittens   no matter what their ancestry.)   

  but if you   want to read  about such breeds of Southeast Asia  ( both Siamese and Burmese were old breeds from Thailand)  it might be helpful  since he sounds similar in needing human attention,  wanting to be involved in everything and very full of energy.   Tips about Siamese / Orientals might certainly apply to this handsome young fellow.       

and there are other things about cats and kittens in general that may be helpful,  like the articles section on this site. 

 and  you mentioned about him needing to learn not to play rough.    Here is a link to some articles about kittens.   I like the articles about "Play Therapy"   . http://http://www.catsinternational.org/articles/all_about_kittens/index.html

Thanks for taking this beautiful kitten in to your home!  he is a lucky little guy that he has landed with someone to love him.

 

[belfegora]

Oh, I thought I've mentioned - I live at Mediterranean (southeastern Europe), so european burmese is not impossible option.. So if I understood correctly, ''our'' domestic types usually have less rounded and a bit longer face, they are more oriental. I've seen siamese types from this area and he differs from them - by hair, eyes and he's more muscular and smaller (for his age). His hair is black completely, with only a bit brownish (but still black) shade. his eyes are mostly light golden... Have I forgotten to mention anything else important?

Anyway, it doesn't make a difference what he is, it's just that  I'm a scientist so I always have that need to investigate even though it doesn't change a thing. But since his personality is really different than most cats around, I don't have much places where I can seek an advice for his behavior. That is very important to me, because although he is cute, he's not nice little kitten (and I love him anyway). I've read all kind of advices and nothing seems to work (in reducing rough play).. But at least now I see there's more cats like him and now I try to understand why is he like that I'm off-topic now, so I thank you for your answer!!

I'm sorry I haven't mentioned my origin before (I know how important it is, but I just forgot to write it down)...

 

[maewkaew]

Hmmm.  Well that is interesting.   because then you have another option that he could  for some reason be from some of the Mediterranean or Egyptian or Levantine cats who have a body type a bit more elongated than is typical in northern Europe.     He looks similar to some cats I've seen in the middle east.    Looks like some young native Egyptian Maus in body type.   

The rough play is typical for kittens who got separated too young from their mother and littermates and didn't learn to inhibit their bite and sheath their claws when playing.   So you will have to try to teach that by startling him,  distracting him with toys , hissing  or making a high pitched scream if he bites,  and then stopping the play for a few minutes -- put him in "time out"  in another room if needed --  only for a short time or it really doesn't help any more.

and of course never letting anyone play with him using their hands as a toy for him to grab or bite at,  which some people think is funny from a kitten but it just trains bad habits.

Also google   kittens and  play aggression ;  you will probably find some more tips for dealing with that.   

 

[belfegora]

That is also a possibility

I've seen lots of advices, and we've spent them all - ''time-outs'', spraying with water, distraction.. well distraction works, but only while we're distracting him. The moment we stop, no matter how long we try, he remembers what he was into. The problem is that we've moved to new apartment and all the furniture is new, so.. but that is another topic and I'll post to those as well.

To return to the topic - I see some similarities with Egyptian Maus, but there's not even a slightest spot on him, he's quite monochromatic. But I agree, he's more oriental and for that reason I wrote that I also think that american bombay is not an option

I wouldn't even see classification or think about breeds if I didn't know that this kind of cat is rare here and his stubborn personality <3  So even if he is or isn't anything we've mentioned, need for attention is definite so I feel encouraged to and hopeful - if someone else ran onto same problems I might even find some solutions

 

[maewkaew]

 Yes but they do  occasionally come in black.  Anyway,  this is a kitten that was found; he almost surely is  not the product of some controlled breeding program.    and if a spotted tabby carrying the non-agouti gene breeds with a black cat, ( or 2 spotted tabbies carrying non-agouti breed together)  they can have black kittens .  

  Or to take the European Burmese example,  if a sable  Burmese breeds with a solid black cat ,  they are going to very likely have solid black kittens. ( next most likely would be solid blue )    Same result would happen with a black cat breeding with a seal point  Siamese  cat  ( or mixed cat with a Siamese pattern) .

I  wouldn't  rule out some kind of Asian background.  but  you would know better than I how many real Siamese or Burmese there are in the area vs how many  random-bred cats with a similar body type.    Also , sometimes kittens go through a lanky,  big eared stage,  but then  by the time they are adults,  they have filled out and look more 'normal' .   So it's hard to tell with kittens, especially mixed kittens.

Re the behavior stuff.   Maybe you are already playing with him a lot,  but  my own experience with my Siamese kittens and cats is that they do seem to act out less in undesirable ways when they get some good play sessions with a wand toy  or playing fetch , a couple times a day.

 The other idea is ... another kitten.    Sometimes it really is easier to have two, because they work out their energy and their urge to wrestle and pounce and play-fight on each other.

That same site I mentioned has an article on saving your furniture from your cat.

 

[j3jewell]

Oh my goodness!  With the exception of the eye color (yellowish-green), this looks just like my Pickles!!!  It's amazing!  They look like they could be siblings...moreso than she and her sister do.  Even though I KNOW they're "mutts," I always thought they had a Bombay/Burmese mix to them.  Thank you for sharing your pix.  What a stunning beauty.