At home euthanasia vs. vet's office

[red top rescue]

I am SO glad you found a vet who looked further for the cause of Roni's high white count.  Sometimes having a fresh outlook makes all the difference.  With a high white count, one should ALWAYS suspect bacterial infection so checking the urine was a natural thing to do.  True, a high white count can also be leukemia of some types, but that's not where you should START.   We are all hoping this does the trick.  BTW did you happen to read about the tortie that was brought to a shelter at age 21, and someone took her home to give her a peaceful old age.......and four years later, she brought the cat back to the shelter just to VISIT and celebrate her 25th birthday!  So one should never make assumptions about age.....

 

[wasabipea]

I am SO glad you found a vet who looked further for the cause of Roni's high white count.  Sometimes having a fresh outlook makes all the difference.  With a high white count, one should ALWAYS suspect bacterial infection so checking the urine was a natural thing to do.  True, a high white count can also be leukemia of some types, but that's not where you should START.   We are all hoping this does the trick.  BTW did you happen to read about the tortie that was brought to a shelter at age 21, and someone took her home to give her a peaceful old age.......and four years later, she brought the cat back to the shelter just to VISIT and celebrate her 25th birthday!  So one should never make assumptions about age.....

Aw! That's amazing and so heartwarming. How could someone dump a 21 year old cat at a shelter? Even if it was an emergency of some type, IMHO they should have found him a home. Kudos to the kind soul that too her in. She gets my purraise!

I'm happy with the new vet, he didn't dismiss her because of her age and thoroughly answered my questions with zero annoyance - he even types up his notes of the session and emails them for my records. I've never heard of that!

Well I am getting nonstop lap / purr time this am, so I'm going to take advantage of it. :rub:

 

[wasabipea]

How great it is to hear that you've found a vet with a more optimistic approach, and the will to work with you and Roni!

I recently started following a blog that was unbeknownst to me a mobile vet clinic, and ironically one that operates locally to me. They posted this a few weeks back and I immediately thought of your earlier frustrations with the at-home vs in-clinic decisions: http://atwork.avma.org/2014/08/02/veterinary-mobility-act-becomes-law/

Thank you for asking. She was tired and I think a little overwhelmed with the extensive testing, but it was more of a tired thing then a depressed thing. Cats have a sense that most of us don't here I believe they can pick up on a lot of our internal feelings - I thinks she was sensing negative from the other place, while this new guy didn't exudation that at all. I gave her her first AB last night (6 weeks worth, I hope her tummy will be OK), she looked really tired and beat up but this mornin was all happy, hungry cat.

So... she didn't get in a funk this time. I think she) was getting to the point of "I'm trying, why did you stop caring?" at the other place. I could be humanizing her feelings inaccurately... but I know my little girl pretty well.

Hopeful we found a good new vet.

 

[wasabipea]

How great it is to hear that you've found a vet with a more optimistic approach, and the will to work with you and Roni!

I recently started following a blog that was unbeknownst to me a mobile vet clinic, and ironically one that operates locally to me. They posted this a few weeks back and I immediately thought of your earlier frustrations with the at-home vs in-clinic decisions: http://atwork.avma.org/2014/08/02/veterinary-mobility-act-becomes-law/

That is great news. It sounds like even though it is now legal, the vet still has the option of whether to offer the services. This is probably an unfair/ignorant statement for me to make, not being a vet - but I really think most if not all vets should at least offer the option of at home euthanasia. As long as the owners are made aware of the risks - and the vet can charge an arm and a leg if they really want to deter clients - but when I was faced with that decision, since my previous vet refused, I would have had to make the difficult procedure of euthanasia using someone I'd never met before. That added to the stress of the decision, for sure.

Thank you for the link, tho

 

[feralvr]

And THAT, my friends :lol3:, is really the main reason we always suggest getting another opinion. :bigthumb: It is amazing what else can be overlooked from the first vet and be found by another. Not to say the first is negligent, absolutely not, but it does help to have other professional's look at your cat when the owner is feeling that not enough is being done OR that you have the feeling that something is not right and missing. I certainly would think that an infection of eColi would cause the WBC to go through the roof. Soon... :cross: Your dear, sweet little girl, Roni, will begin to feel even better. :rub:

 

[wasabipea]

And THAT, my friends

, is really the main reason we always suggest getting another opinion.

It is amazing what else can be overlooked from the first vet and be found by another. Not to say the first is negligent, absolutely not, but it does help to have other professional's look at your cat when the owner is feeling that not enough is being done OR that you have the feeling that something is not right and missing. I certainly would think that an infection of eColi would cause the WBC to go through the roof. Soon...

Your dear, sweet little girl, Roni, will begin to feel even better.

I really hope so. I also think my previous vet was just tired of all the infections, etc of the urine based organs and her urine in general. The last time she did an aspiration, when Roni was acting sick, it came back with no bacteria. So she probably just assumed the same thing this time. I just think she is over that cat (and me, too). SO... knowing myself - IF this works and her WBC goes back to normal, it's going to be so hard not tossing it back in her face and saying "euthanize this" (I can have a slightly vindictive streak

 - just slightly), but I can't sever my relationship with the office.

I've never heard of eColi in cats, but I guess it's a fairly common infection - and

 so far she is tolertaing the ABs well. I do think she needed a fresh pair of eyes and a different perspective, as well as not being discriminated against because of her age - which I really felt was happening. So anyway, thank you for the vibes

 and hopefully she will be feeling better soon. I'm trying to go grain free, or as close as possible, and she is adopting her new diet with vigor. Funny, because I tried a few years ago - and she wanted no part of it.

I'm afraid to get my hopes up, but maybe just a little

.

 

[peaches08]

How wonderful that you found some answers!  The UTI, a new vet...I'm so happy for you! 

 

[feralvr]

And THAT, my friends :lol3: , is really the main reason we always suggest getting another opinion. :bigthumb: It is amazing what else can be overlooked from the first vet and be found by another. Not to say the first is negligent, absolutely not, but it does help to have other professional's look at your cat when the owner is feeling that not enough is being done OR that you have the feeling that something is not right and missing. I certainly would think that an infection of eColi would cause the WBC to go through the roof. Soon... :cross: Your dear, sweet little girl, Roni, will begin to feel even better. :rub:

I really hope so. I also think my previous vet was just tired of all the infections, etc of the urine based organs and her urine in general. The last time she did an aspiration, when Roni was acting sick, it came back with no bacteria. So she probably just assumed the same thing this time. I just think she is over that cat (and me, too). SO... knowing myself - IF this works and her WBC goes back to normal, it's going to be so hard not tossing it back in her face and saying "euthanize this" (I can have a slightly vindictive streak

 - just slightly), but I can't sever my relationship with the office.

I've never heard of eColi in cats, but I guess it's a fairly common infection - and

 so far she is tolertaing the ABs well. I do think she needed a fresh pair of eyes and a different perspective, as well as not being discriminated against because of her age - which I really felt was happening. So anyway, thank you for the vibes :heart4:  and hopefully she will be feeling better soon. I'm trying to go grain free, or as close as possible, and she is adopting her new diet with vigor. Funny, because I tried a few years ago - and she wanted no part of it.

I'm afraid to get my hopes up, but maybe just a little .

I honestly did not like the sound of your other vet anyway but completely understand that you never want to burn a bridge. Ultimately, YOU are in control of Roni's health and WHO will be doing the treatments and care. I, too, definitely have that vindictive, retaliatory and spiteful side to me especially when it comes to standing up for the right's of animals - mine AND other's. :lol3: But, in all honesty, I probably (if it were me) would not go back to that vet given they way they made you feel. That is just crappy on so many levels. Although, if you do not have many choices of vet's in your area, then of course, you need to keep that door open. I would probably let the vet know, down the road after Roni is doing obviously much better - kindly and respectfully - about what was found, diagnosed and hopefully with a positive outcome for Roni. :cross: :cross: :cross: :cross: I routinely left the door open for other opinions with my vet's when I lived in Illinois and one of then always appreciated other vet's opinions or looksee's - his pride was never on the table and he had a great concern for the animal and would welcome other views.

We have to have HOPE, hun. Hard on the heart/emotions, but allow yourself to be happy and relieved right now that you are both on a new path with her medical care. MANY finger's crossed and prayers that this will be the answer.

 

[wasabipea]

It's strange, I used to really like this vet (there are two vets at the practice - and older woman and a younger one). I still like the older vet better than the younger vet, but even the elder has the attitude that "it not just old age, there is always a cause for what some call "old age", but it's how far you are willing to go to find the answers". I guess it's that they never pushed to find answers... and I'm not a vet, so I don't know what calls to make.

I've been going to that practice for about 5 yrs, and not sure if I mentioned this earlier - but I've seen a real change in the younger vet there. I think she is on the path to burn out, and if I had to guess - I wouldn't give her another 10 years tops in that profession. I was talking to her not too terribly long ago about chaging professions (It's no secret I hate my current job) and mentioned dog training - for some reason, dogs really respond to me - they always have. She mentioned something about "keep in mind it's not just the dogs you are working with, it's the owners just as much". So maybe that's part of her problem - professionally, you put all this effort into helping an animal and then the owners don't follow through. I guess that can be frustrating, and I hadn't considered that.

But anyway, I digress. I'm going to call the old place and see if they carry Norm-R and whether I need a script for it and how much it is (the office is also on my way home from work, so it's convenient and I have to return their x-rays anyway). I'll mention the eColi diagnosis, because I'm sure questions will be asked. Nothing malicious - and yes, I do need to mantain a rapport with the office since they have weekend hours, while the new place doesn't - plus there aren't many vets to choose from in this area. They may get bent, but... hey. If they had taken the initiative and not blown off her treatment, it would be a different story.

So... off to make the call. They aren't going to be pleased.

Hopefully this treatment for the eColi works, a couple of months ago she did receive two back to back injections of Convenia (that two week AB) and it didn't really make much of a dent in her WBC. I'm hoping this pill I have her on now is more effective for that specific strain she has, rather than Convenia - which I believe is more broad spectrum.

 Can eColi get so bad that you can't get rid of it? I guess that is a question for the vet...

 

[catsallaround]

I have to say I understand where she is coming from with the owners.  My current vet practice is GREAT but there is always a long wait and I end up talking to people.  Some of them just really make you wonder how they got as far as they did in life. But it is so true the owners can be the issue.  

 

[wasabipea]

 
I have to say I understand where she is coming from with the owners.  My current vet practice is GREAT but there is always a long wait and I end up talking to people.  Some of them just really make you wonder how they got as far as they did in life. But it is so true the owners can be the issue.

It must be especially frustrating when owners come in and want to have their pet put down for no other reason than they are finding it too much responsibility, or the dog sheds, or something to that effect. I will say that I talked with one of the techs at my old place, and he said when they get a case with owners wanting to put down healthy animals for a completely invalid reason such as above, they will ask the owners to sign over ownership rights to that animal to the hospital and they will find it a home or do something other than destroy it.

That train of thought baffles me. Being a vet, I truly hope that you don't have to see a lot of that.

 

[feralvr]

. She mentioned something about "keep in mind it's not just the dogs you are working with, it's the owners just as much". So maybe that's part of her problem - professionally, you put all this effort into helping an animal and then the owners don't follow through. I guess that can be frustrating, and I hadn't considered that.



So... off to make the call. They aren't going to be pleased.

Hopefully this treatment for the eColi works, a couple of months ago she did receive two back to back injections of Convenia (that two week AB) and it didn't really make much of a dent in her WBC. I'm hoping this pill I have her on now is more effective for that specific strain she has, rather than Convenia - which I believe is more broad spectrum.

Three different points to make! One - I totally understand the frustration in trying to help an animal by having to go through and help the owner first and foremost - to get them to understand and DO. It is not always easy, it doesn't always work and the animal suffers. It would be very easy to burn out having to deal with that.

two - GOOD LUCK with the call. :cross: I had the same issue in Illinois. The one vet I did not care for so much was open ALL weekend long so I rarely ever needed an Evet appt. The head vet - the one I liked - was a workaholic and had great compassion for feral cats too and the office hours were LONG 7 days a week. Still, I had to handle things cautiously and gracefully and the one vet was always great BUT the other two seemed to always get offended that I had a "primary" vet.

three - :cross: for the new medication to help. The Cerenia certainly did not work for me either in some cases with my cats - especially Presley's UTI infection. We had to go with Baytril shortly after. Covenia did not do it. So hopefully this will work for Roni. THINKING POSITIVELY !!!!!!!!!!!!! :bigthumb:

 

[catsallaround]

Not a vet just a crazy cat lady who spends quite a bit of time waiting for this cat or that cats appointment  I JUST read an article of a dog surrendered to be euthanized as owner thought it was terminal.  It was SOOO matted it could barely walk.  They shaved it to find it was adoptable and no major issues!  

 

[wasabipea]

Will this new antibiotics she is on is called cefpdoxime, which she has never taken before. The vet cultured her strain of e.coli to determine the most effective antibiotic... and of course things are falling apart already and she just started the pills on maybe Friday?

She doesn't tolerate antibiotics well at all, has always had a sensitive tummy... and a, lready she's not eating, yesterday was a digestive nightmare. No messes today, but she also won't eat. She won't even lick nutri-cal off my finger, and she always eats that.

I can't get the tiny tiny dose of pepcid that she gets down her throat alone so I have to mix it in with the rest of her meds in a gel cap. Has anyone ever used any form of liquid I'd like to give her the antacid about a half an hour before I feed her, alone and with nothing else - but the pill s too small. Hiding it in treats is no longer an option either since she got hip to that.

I am so discouraged.

My tablet is acting up and I just can't deal with it so I'm signing off for now. .

Feeling like garbage and helpless, Wasabipea

 

[catsallaround]

In a case of truly knowing what is best I have taken nutrical and smeared it on the roof of the mouth.  Go slow as to much will just get spit out.  Worked wonders for my cat when he was pretty bad off and could not get up.  Can mix in some crushed pill depending on how bitter it is.

 

[Loving Mickey]

Hi Wasabipea
Just read your complete thread.I had read some of it before but didn't realize it was you until now.My heart truly goes out to you.You had to put Len down and now dealing with Roni being ill.You have so much to worry about concerning your own precious cat babies and yet you still respond to my posts about losing Mickey.You really have a huge caring heart caring about others like me when you have troubles of your own.I understand your feelings concerning vets.I wasn't too happy with mine either.I just hope your second vet will be more helpful and Roni will feel better soon.My thoughts will be with you and Roni as well.Take Care and hang in there.I do know how tough things can get.Always know I am here for you.I will pray for Roni's good health.

 

[wasabipea]

 
In a case of truly knowing what is best I have taken nutrical and smeared it on the roof of the mouth.  Go slow as to much will just get spit out.  Worked wonders for my cat when he was pretty bad off and could not get up.  Can mix in some crushed pill depending on how bitter it is.

Well I have a call into the vet about a plan B, either the ABs are going to kill her or the eColi is. I can't give her an appetite stimulant becuase it interacts with the amiltryptiline, she seems like she wants to eat but sniffs it and doesn't. Between last night and this AM, I got one jar of baby food into her (she threw up during the night - and the runs in the box this AM were pure liquid, sorry for the gross). She was meowing at the door to go out this AM, I suspect to eat grass and throw up because she felt sick.

Well the vet just called me back and said take her off the ABs that she is on and we're going to try something in the Baytril family. The eColi culture was sensitive to that, and I know she can take that with little tummy problems, she has had that in the past. So we are going to clear out her system the ones that were making her sick. Ironic that she was acting so well until we starting treating the infection.

For the moment, I'm trying to stay away from forcing the Nutrical on her (re: roof of mouth) since I don't want to turn it into a negative experience for her as she loves it so... but if it comes down to it, I'll have to. I wonder if Pepcid is bitter - I've been mixing the Pepcid into her "pill cocktail" which is all of them in one gelcap, but it would probabyl be better to give them to her seperately on an empty stomach.

Today:

@Loving Mickey: Thank you for your thoughts, your post struck a chord in me - feeling similar here, just with the addition of the other kitty being a differential. There are days that I feel I never got the chance to properly mourn Len, because Roni fell apart immediately - that's why it's proboably why it's still so raw for me even tho I lost him in May. Give Shadow a little pet from me.

 

[feralvr]

My heart feels for you so badly. I know first hand how difficult what you are going through IS.

I do not know of that AB but would assume that is causing the diarrhea, the nausea and for Roni to feel sick in her tummy. I have used Baytril with success and hope that Roni will tolerate it easily. Also, as for the liquid medicine; have tried liquid in the past with not great success unless it is compounded to taste like chicken or something but still, some cats can just spit it all out. I do have one cat that will take a liquid medication quite easily so it may be worth a try with Roni anyway.

I have also put meds if not bitter into NutriCal and smear on the roof of their mouth. Still, some take it much better than other's - it is a crap shoot.

AND :grphug: :grphug2:

 

[catsallaround]

Many hugs to you and Roni.  I hope you are able to find something that will work without making her so ill.  
I have Lyme and it lays dormant just fine but minute I go on AB for lung issues which I am prone to it flares so I kinda get that part.  

 

[wasabipea]

Thanks, all. @Feralvr- that liquid AB, if it is the one I am thinking of, is called metronizadole (or something like that) - and it is supposed to be good for tummy issues, the runs, etc. That's what she was taking that gave her the Death Symptoms, not long after Len passed and she was in such bad shape. My idiot vet (sorry, but I'm really mad at her now) insisted that I keep her on those ABs, saying "oh, it's not them" - then when I made an appt to euthanize her - I had about two days before the appt, and I decided to let her live out her days in peace and wasn't going to jam any more garbage down her throat... and lo and behold, when I took her off the stuff, the symptoms went away. So even the ABs that are supposed to be good for tummy issues give her tummy issues.

This vet had been wrong on so many levels, so many times with this cat, no wonder she wants me to put her down. Maybe she's tired of misdiagnosing her all the time.

Anyway, I guess eColi treatment is supposed to be six weeks. It's one thing if it's a week or 10 days, and there are flares - you can usually find a workaround for the eating, etc... but six weeks? While I have been giving her Fortiflora, a kind forum member sent me a note about a pro-biotic called s. boulardii. Maybe that can hold her symptoms at bay for the lengthy treatment time, I have to look into it - id anyone has experience with it keeping IBD-type symptoms at bay, and have any advice to share, I'm all ears. *humbly thanks you*

I don't know what to do. I don't see her surviving this - seems either the symptoms of the ABs will kill her or the infection will. If my stupid vet had found this when her white cell count was 15K instead of 30K, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But I don't know.

I don't mean to vet-bash, that's not my thing, but this woman has a lengthy streak of being consistently wrong - and I kept on trusting her professional opinion. Why didn't she culture her back in early June? It's just a needle in the bladder.

I'm very {insert any and all negative emotions here} today, including ready to give up, and I guess feeling sorry for myself and REALLY using so much of my energy to keep from verbally blasting this previous vet. She has been avoiding me since the metro / euthanasia mishap... no wonder.

Again, I'm sorry to vet bash, and it's just as much my own fault for not getting another opinion. I'm sure there are lots of wonderful vets on this site, and people like me would be lost without veterinarians... but veterinarians that actually take initiative to find out the problem are much appreciated. And the ones that don't should have a reason other than "well, she's 18 and has CKD" - she's stage 2 for pete's sake.

This message is all over the place,  but so is my brain today. Is there a flaming mad smiley?

 <--- there, that's the one I was looking for!