Anything Better Than K/d Diet For Crf Cat Allergic To Poutry?

[teeveecat]

My geriatric cat who started to drink and urinate more a few years ago recently had another blood workup. I was informed that she's now just entered the CRF stage and should switch to a k/d diet.

She's been eating Nature's Variety Instinct canned rabbit for about 15 years as her sole diet. About 15 years ago, I discovered she was allergic to poultry and would develop granulomas. She would als lick her hind leg bald if fed any cat food with poultry.

My vet suggested the Hills K/D canned tuna formula. I informed him that formula has chicken, chicken fat and chicken liver in the ingredients A few days later his assistant emailed a link which appears to be he only low protein and low phosphorous prescription food for allergic cats. Its called "Feline Multifunction Renal Support + Hydrolyzed Protein dry cat food" from Royal Canin. The problem is that it also contains chicken liver and is kibble, which I can't feed my cat because of her lack of teeth (she just has her front incisors).

After I informed the vet, he indicated I should give the k/d canned diet a try and see if the allergy is still active. He said it's been over 10 years and sometimes these allergies have a way of alleviating themselves and are no longer active.

My worry, of course is that if there still is an allergy, it might take a week or two to disappear iafter I stop the food, and with her current kidney issues, I don't want her back on the prednisone or prednisolone she took over 15 years ago until I found NV Instinct canned rabbit.

Any suggestions? This is Lisa Pierson's canned food chart as of 2017 and if you sort on the phosphorous column, there's no real options other than the kd/ prescription diets. There's a Royal Canin g/d food that has turkey, but has a slightly higher phosphorous level. Once again it's still poultry, but the ingredients look better than Royal Canin's other produts and a few of the Hills offerings that contain that synthetic form of vitamin K.

Cat Food Database

 

[LTS3]

Have you tried this list of kidney-friendly foods? Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Canned Food Data USA You will still need to read the labels for the presence of chicken.

Are novel protein and LID foods low in phosphorus?

 

[2BSH]

I believe the merrick lid salmon is. I think whole earth farms beef and salmon pate is also low in phosphorus. Those are both poultry free.

 

[teeveecat]

Have you tried this list of kidney-friendly foods? Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease- Canned Food Data USA You will still need to read the labels for the presence of chicken. Are novel protein and LID foods low in phosphorus?

Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen that listing a bunch of times but your link gave me the chance to bookmark it. It's similar to the Lisa Pierson link I included in my post above, and I prefer her phosphorous column because it's in mg. The listing from Tanya's site is helpful, also and provides calories which the other list doesn't have.

If you check the Lisa Pierson list and sort it on the phosphorous column, you won't find much that's low in phosphorous other than the K/D diets and one g/d food. I've asked Nature's Variety why they don't issue some of their novel proteins in low protein and phosphorous formulas. There's little available for allergic cats.

I believe the merrick lid salmon is. I think whole earth farms beef and salmon pate is also low in phosphorus. Those are both poultry free.

Merrick LID salmon has about double the the mg of phosphorous that the k/d cans have. The lowest is Merrick LID duck with 146 mg of salmon, while the Royal Canin k/d cans have about 80 to 100 mg and Hills k/d has about 100 to 117 mg of phosphorous. In comparison, her current NV Instinct Rabbit has 313 mg of phosphorous!

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!

The problem is that it also contains chicken liver and is kibble, which I can't feed my cat because of her lack of teeth (she just has her front incisors).

If you did decide to try this, could you add water or beef broth to the kibble to moisten it for her? --You probably know this but for information's sake, don't leave moistened kibble out for very long due to fast bacteria growth.
Some cats don't seem to have troubles with no teeth/dry kibble but I don't know the size of the kibble in these cases.

 

[molly92]

I actually just emailed Rad Cat the other day, and their lamb recipe is only at .54% phosphorus. It's raw so it's different than what she (and you!) are used to, but it might be worth looking into.

If anyone's interested here's the whole chart the sent me and info on the appropriateness of their food for kidney cats:

 

[lisahe]

One food that's very low in phosphorus for a commercial food is Weruva's Steak Frites, which is beef with bits of potato and (if I remember correctly) pumpkin. It's .57% dry matter phosphorus, which is great. When we had an elderly cat with mild kidney disease (as well as food allergies/sensitivities that led to IBD and most likely lymphoma) and she loved it.

I generally kept Brooksie's phosphorus under 1% dry matter and found a lot of Weruva foods that fit that she also loved. She also loved the Lamb Burger-ini, which is from the Cats in the Kitchen line; that one's also poultry-free and its phosphorus is 1.05% dry matter so also on the lower end.

Good luck!

 

[teeveecat]

One of the foods she was eating when her allergies started over 15 years ago was Paw Lickin' Chicken from Weruva. She loved it and I loved the look of the food and the hard metal of the cans (in comparison to the softer, soda can like hardness of Nature's Variety which is packed by Simmons). While Nature's Variety cans dent very easily, Weruva's are hard as a rock like Fancy Feast cans from Nestle. Weruva's cans probably have to withstand heat during shipping from Thailand and more knocking around.

There were two problems I had with Weruva Paw Lickin' Chicken 15 years ago.
1) She lost several pounds on the food because a 5.5 oz can is only 105 calories. With few teeth even back then, it took her awhile to finish one can each day.
2) Many of Weruva's offerings have a low fiber content and with the lesser calories she was eating, she would move her bowels once every 5 days! She wasn't even really constipated. It took her awhile to form anything on that diet.

One food that's very low in phosphorus for a commercial food is Weruva's Steak Frites, which is beef with bits of potato and (if I remember correctly) pumpkin. It's .57% dry matter phosphorus, which is great. Good luck!

The ingredients of Weruva are certainly better than what Hills and Royal Canin throw in their food, but the problem with the Steak Frites and Lamb Burger-ini is the higher protein content. The k/d diets are in the 25% range. Steak Frites from Weruva is 62% dry matter protein and 45% on the ME chart. Lisa Pierson seems to be using the lower ME (Metabolizable Energy) percentage while The Catinfo.org chart is using the higher dry matter protein percentage.

If you take a look at Weruva's chart here: Weruva - People Food for Pets - Cats in the Kitchen Pouches - Nutrition Information
it's kind of misleading. The amount of phosphorous is listed as per 100 kcal. From what I understand:

The "calorie" we refer to in food is actually kilocalorie. One (1) kilocalorie is thesame as one (1) Calorie (upper case C).

Unless I'm reading the definition of their chart wrong, one can of Steak Frites is 144 Calories, which mean that if there are 118 mg phosphorous per 100 kcal, that means that there are 1.18 mg phosphorous per 1 kcal (or 1 Calorie) and 170 mg of phosphorous in a 5.5 oz can (144 Calories x 1.18).

If a can of Steak Frites is only 144 calories, you would need to feed about another 25% of a can to a 9 or 10 lb. cat to maintain their weight. That would bring the phosphorous level to about 212 mg of phosphorous in a daily diet when eating Steak Frites. I'm going to write Weruva and either confirm this or update this thread depending upon their response.

I actually just emailed Rad Cat the other day, and their lamb recipe is only at .54% phosphorus. It's raw so it's different than what she (and you!) are used to, but it might be worth looking into.

Thanks for the advice but I'd be afraid to switch to raw at this point, considering her advanced age. Once again, the protein percentage is an issue in most other foods. Even so, one has to consider that they might not get enough protein if the cat doesn't like the vet prescribed diet, and what exactly are Hills and Royal Canin using for a source protein. Presumably, Nature's Variety has been very careful and has used top quality stuff, considering the high price of their food. NV has a raw food of their own, too as does a well known holistic pet food store in NYC.

Hi!

If you did decide to try this, could you add water or beef broth to the kibble to moisten it for her? --You probably know this but for information's sake, don't leave moistened kibble out for very long due to fast bacteria growth.
Some cats don't seem to have troubles with no teeth/dry kibble but I don't know the size of the kibble in these cases.

I mentioned the addition of water to the vets assistant and she thought it was a good idea, but then I read about leaving moistened kibble out and thought twice about it. It takes her awhile to eat each of her 3 daily portions of canned food. She comes back and forth in between naps a few times for each meal. I also can't see how dry kibble wouldn't irritate the gums of cats with few teeth. I have enough of a problem with Nature's Variety. Some of their batches of canned rabbit contain tiny bits of bone which haven't been ground finely enough. The last two have this problem and I'm always contacting the President and VP's of the company.

 

[lisahe]

T teeveecat , yes, Weruva foods are definitely low-calorie, which can be an issue for a lot of cats. They worked out well for our cat, who had multiple illnesses at the end of her life and didn't have much of an appetite at all: the fact that she liked and would consistently eat low-calorie Weruva foods was a huge positive since she had to eat. Of course each cat is different.

As for protein for kidney cats, we chose to follow a different school of thought, which holds that feeding quality meat-based protein (in wet food only) is the best approach. Dr. Pierson sums that up on her site here. I found that the protein question is very contentious but that opinion in general seemed (five years ago) to be moving toward thinking that protein is good for kidney cats. Again, I realize that every cat is different and every treatment is different -- fluids and binders are common elements that can have important effects -- but our cat (who was very ill so her results may have been skewed) did show improvement in her kidney numbers in her last blood tests. (The vet, who'd wanted to put Brooksie on prescription food for early-stage kidney disease, was surprised but I wasn't!) We even fed her Rad Cat (also against vet wishes) and that was another positive because she loved it. She'd never had it until her last months (she was about 17) when she took to Rad Cat chicken at first bite.

In any case, there are lots of ways to approach CKD, particularly when a cat has multiple illnesses, but many of us have found that continuing to feed a lot of protein works very well for kidney cats, particularly since it can keep the cat eating. No matter what approach you choose, I hope your cat continues to eat happily!

 

[teeveecat]

T teeveecat As for protein for kidney cats, we chose to follow a different school of thought, which holds that feeding quality meat-based protein (in wet food only) is the best approach. Dr. Pierson sums that up on her site here. I found that the protein question is very contentious but that opinion in general seemed (five years ago) to be moving toward thinking that protein is good for kidney cats....

In any case, there are lots of ways to approach CKD, particularly when a cat has multiple illnesses, but many of us have found that continuing to feed a lot of protein works very well for kidney cats, particularly since it can keep the cat eating. No matter what approach you choose, I hope your cat continues to eat happily!

Thanks for your input. These are the kind of suggestions I like to read. I've read the protein debate before and would love to keep giving her the NV Instinct rabbit as that's what saved her from her poultry allergy, but it's very high in phosphorous. I may try Weruva again but she was also allergic to beef years ago and would develop lesions on the neck and scabs on the tail before the complete switch to rabbit.

For the time being, I'll take a chance and see if the k/d causes allergies and if she will actually eat it. I'm trying to decide between Royal Canin and Hills. Both have their questionable ingredients. Hills throws in the synthetic vitamin K (Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex) along with powdered cellulose while Royal Canin has powdered cellulose, meat by-products, sodium silico aluminate and carrageenan.

After many years of giving her an all natural food (and hopefully I can trust NV's ingredients claims), I'm now almost forced to choose between the least of two questionable ones because there's really no novel canned protein low in phosphorous and protein at the same time, although based on the links I'm now reading, protein may not be as important.

Catinfo.org's food chart allows you to sort on various fields when using the "Extensive Filters" feature at the top of the original PDF version. Here's a link to a sort on foods that are under 140 mg per 100 kcal of phosphorous. Click on the Phosphorous column to sort it by amount from low to high.

Click here:
Cat Food Database

Note that here are some low protein ones in there that aren't prescription diets. Unfortunately, Hills now only makes the chicken and turkey flavors in their Ideal Balance line. There's also the Wellness Healthy Indulgence line and a few others but I haven't checked the ingredients listing yet for those. The Hills Ideal Balance formula appears to be their best and avoids some of the questionable stuff they throw in the prescription diets.

 

[lisahe]

T teeveecat , I see! The plot thickens here. Well, based on what you say about the Royal Canin and Hills, if I absolutely had to choose one of those, I'd opt for the Hills because there's no way I'd feed a cat with digestive/allergy/sensitivity issues carrageenan.

And yes, (again, speaking personally) I'd focus on the the phosphorous levels (and even carbohydrates) rather than the protein levels of foods, particularly given that your cat doesn't have late-stage disease.

Now, just to rehash, teeveecat, your cat has had reactions to these proteins so shouldn't eat them, right?
-any and all poultry (chicken, turkey, duck, guinea hen, etc.)
-beef

Are there any other proteins that have seemed to cause problems? And is there any protein other than rabbit that has been successful for your cat? Finally, what is your cat's name?

 

[teeveecat]

T teeveecat , I see! The plot thickens here. Well, based on what you say about the Royal Canin and Hills, if I absolutely had to choose one of those, I'd opt for the Hills because there's no way I'd feed a cat with digestive/allergy/sensitivity issues carrageenan.

And yes, (again, speaking personally) I'd focus on the the phosphorous levels (and even carbohydrates) rather than the protein levels of foods, particularly given that your cat doesn't have late-stage disease.

Now, just to rehash, teeveecat, your cat has had reactions to these proteins so shouldn't eat them, right?
-any and all poultry (chicken, turkey, duck, guinea hen, etc.)
-beef

Are there any other proteins that have seemed to cause problems? And is there any protein other than rabbit that has been successful for your cat? Finally, what is your cat's name?

My little girl's name is Lulu. She's had reactions to poultry, beef and lamb in the past. I started her on Hills K/D Tuna Pate on Monday. Tuna is the 5th ingredient after water, chicken, and. It also has chicken liver and chicken fat. So far, so good. I'll give it 2 weeks to a month of constant checking to ensure there are no granulomas (scabs on the skin and tail) or if she starts licking her hind legs bald. If I see a sign of any of that, I'll change her diet back to NV canned rabbit until I can find something else. For the next few days, she's still eating half and half (canned rabbit and Hills K/D canned) until I transition her over. I may still give her a can of NV rabbit once a week as a treat and half of a sardine with alot of water (skinless and boneless - no salt and no oil sardines).

As far as Royal Canin goes, once I saw the meat by-products in the canned formulas, I knew I couldn't buy that. The two questionable ingredients in the Hills K/D canned food are the menadione sodium bisulfite complex (a synthetic form of vitamin K) and cellulose powder (wood pulp aka sawdust).

I'm going to check the blood test again to see what stage she's in. She was borderline during her tests two years ago but because of her previous allergies, I didn't want to alter her diet at the time, which has been all wet food for over 15 years. Now I just have to determine if I have to supplement her diet with some protein to make up for the low protein of the Hills Tuna Pate.

Have all of you seen this Hills K/D Tuna Pate? I always assumed a pate meant a thicker spread but the consistency of this food is more like a pudding or baby food. Is this the way it's supposed to look? I contacted Hills and sent them the photo. They said yes. I'll probably create a new thread for this. This photo compares the "pate" to Nature's Variety Intinct canned rabbit. They both have a listed moisture content of 78%, yet the K/D looks much more watery (Lulu loves the K/D food by the way and it's very easy for her eat and lick as she only has her front incisors left):

 

[Daisy6]

The repsonses you are getting from your vet and his assistant scream, "All we are interested in is the money from buying our food." There is no other interpretation. Vets who care about the cat will do anything to make sure no poultry is in the diet and live by the motto, "If it's not broke, don't fix it," when you know the food has been working for 15 years.

 

[Daisy6]

You actually are not forced to choose between Hill's and Royal Canin. Protein only needs to be high quality, not reduced, in cats with CKD. If I had to do it again my choice would be to try phosphorus binders in regular cat food instead of Hill's k/d. Unfortunately I did not know anything about adding them externally and my kitty, who was 19 when she died, lost weight at a rate of 1 pound a month.

 

[molly92]

Pâte for cat food generally means smooth, as opposed to foods with chunks or shreds. Nature's variety has montmorillonite clay if I'm remembering correctly which probably gives it more structure.

 

[Daisy6]

I read cats wiht CRF should not eat fish on one website. It may not be too bad for Lulu if she is still in an early stage, but I would not feed her sardines on top of the Hill's tuna k/d.

Ask the vet for a copy of her current blood test results at her next appointment. It is time for Lulu to get tested again.

 

[teeveecat]

I read cats wiht CRF should not eat fish on one website. It may not be too bad for Lulu if she is still in an early stage, but I would not feed her sardines on top of the Hill's tuna k/d.

Ask the vet for a copy of her current blood test results at her next appointment. It is time for Lulu to get tested again.

I just tested her 2 weeks ago and I have a copy. I ask him to email it after each visit and I get the results the next day and discuss them with the vet.

Judging by the ingredients list, I'm guessing there's little tuna in the k/d diet, but I can confirm that with Hills. As far as sardines go, I only give her a little less than half of one every week or two.

Pâte for cat food generally means smooth, as opposed to foods with chunks or shreds. Nature's variety has montmorillonite clay if I'm remembering correctly which probably gives it more structure.

You're correct about the clay but there's also more than twice the protein. I haven't opened a can of Fancy Feast in many years, but I don't recall it having the pudding consistency of Hills K/D.

The responses you are getting from your vet and his assistant scream, "All we are interested in is the money from buying our food." There is no other interpretation. Vets who care about the cat will do anything to make sure no poultry is in the diet and live by the motto, "If it's not broke, don't fix it," when you know the food has been working for 15 years.

The vet isn't selling me the Hills K/D. He submitted the the prescription and I'm ordering it from either Chewy, or Drsfostersmith/Petco. Whether there's now a residual deal based on prescriptions submitted to sites, I don't know. The problem with the NV Instinct rabbit is that it's over 300 mg per 100kcal in phosphorus or 3 times the K/D prescriptions. I'd love to still keep feeding her the NV Instinct rabbit. I'm still transitioning her over to k/d, so for the next two days, she's getting 25% NV Instinct rabbit in her diet.

So far she hasn't shown any signs of her previous skin allergy to poultry on the k/d diet. I check her several times a day. The problem I'm having is that after opening the 5.5 oz. can, she'll eat a third of it in the morning but doesn't have the same gusto for the rest of the can (I transfer it to a sealed glass dish before refrigerating and make sure it's at room temperature for her other feedings).

 

[Daisy6]

So she does not like leftover Hill's k/d. Can you ask the vet for smaller cans?

 

[maggiedemi]

Yeah, I remember Hills Science Diet canned food being like pudding. My cats wouldn't eat it.

 

[Daisy6]

I never bought that for my cats. My vet told me to add a canned food to their diet during the melamine poisoning recalls and I knew Science Diet was one of the cat food brands involved.