Another new breed: Caracats

[goldenkitty45]

Here's a description of the Caracal cat. IMO its not a "small" cat - they are quite a bit larger then even a large domestic cat like a Maine Coon or a Ragdoll which can get 18 lbs. This cat is at least twice that size. And you are breeding it to an 8 lb little Aby????? Which means a small Caracal is almost 4 times the size of the Aby!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal

 

[moonandstarkatz]

What breeding experience does she have to begin with and your right, type and temperament before the paint. Breeders of Siberians were working with farm cats for many yeas before adventuring into Siberians. Many early breeders were also researching feline genetics in depth and took classes on these things. Many breeders of the Siberians still take courses offered by their club. My boy Zennys breeder is the head of the club in her city and she has studied lots of classes.
Daisy

 

[magnoliachat]

I am trying to be as objective as I can with this. I think we dismiss new breeds too easily sometimes. The cat is absolutely beautiful. There is no denying that. I do worry about the size difference, though.

If I were her, I would look for a female that is of larger size and in a breed with a little longer gestation period. I would want to know this person's experience, as well. TICA needs to be careful with this. I have been breeding my new breed for 3 years and have not applied to TICA yet. I want to wait until there is more genetic diversity and more breeders to help. This is going to be a much slower process than she thinks.

Anyway, if she would forget about the pattern for now and concentrate on health and safety of the female, she can get the coat pattern she wants with her F3's.

Just my opinion.....

 

[goldenkitty45]

Its not the coat pattern that is the problem (as both have a ticked tabby coat) - its the tufted big ears she wants. Claims that is lost after the generations (F3 and more). She wants what the F2's have and I don't think any cat registry is willing to accept F2's. Especially since it involves wild cats. Even the Bengals have to be F4 or above to be shown.

 

[forensic]

Maybe introducing a breed with, oh say, um... tufted ears would help?

*sigh* Or maybe size, to maintain the size...


She can't have everything right away! Creating a breed takes decades! Sheesh.

 

[sol]

Once again I'm so happy I live in Sweden. Here it's illegal to breed wild animals with domesticated species, no matter what species we're talking about (so no, FI Bengals aren't legal to keep as pets here).

Personally I'm against all kind of hybridization between wild and domesticated species but it's just pure insanity when you breed species with completely different gestation periods! More or less counting on many premature births and therefor many unnecessary deaths.

There's enough of variation within the domestic cat gene pool for us to be able to create spectacular, healthy and beautyful cats.

 

[epona]

Originally Posted by Sol

Once again I'm so happy I live in Sweden. Here it's illegal to breed wild animals with domesticated species, no matter what species we're talking about (so no, FI Bengals aren't legal to keep as pets here).

The laws regarding domestic cat hybrids have only been relaxed here since last year - even a later generation Bengal was theoretically an animal requiring a licence up until then but in reality it was never enforced for that particular hybrid. Licences issued by local councils are required to keep other wild cats and hybrids thereof (as designated in the 1976 Act and more recent schedules - which includes the entire felidae genus with the exception of the domestic cat)

Originally Posted by Defra

Local authorities are responsible for licensing and enforcement under the Act. Many exercise their discretion in respect of Bengal cats (for example if the animals are many generations removed from the wild ancestor and are essentially indistinguishable from domestic animals) and regard them as domestic cats and therefore not in requirement of a licence under the Act. The revised Schedule now makes it much clearer as to what exceptions can now be made in respect of such hybrids.

I don't honestly see the need for large domestic cat hybrids - certainly in the UK it does not make it possible to own a 'large cat' - if you need a licence for one of the founding species then you need a licence for a hybrid, so if you want something truly spectacular you may as well apply for a licence for the wild species rather than a hybrid. I believe that breeding 2 species of vastly different sizes is cruel and unnecessary (although maybe profitable in the long term if it works out). So shoot me.

 

[artgecko]

OK, I'm of two minds on this one...

The "positives"
The F1s on her site look cool, and theoretically, I think a cat (domestic) with the coloring and physical features of a caracal (tufts, puma type dark facial markings, short tail) would be neat looking...

The "negatives"

-I'm not sure that breeding two vastly different sized cats is a good idea, much less two with such different gestation periods. This could lead to low survival rate (kittens and possibly the mother) as well as mother injury.

- The fact that she wants to only create F1s / F2s shows that she hasn't really thought this through.... A breed should develope....and I don't see much room for development if she's only going to go 2 generations from the wild cross... If she wants this to be an actual "breed" I think she needs to work on developing the traits she wants in later generations instead of taking the "easy way out" so to speak, by only going to F2.

- Declawing all of them? If she wants a large domestic/wild hybrid cat, she should accept (and all those wanting one) the risks involved. This is why they outlawed defanging of lions, etc. (can't remember if they outlawed declawing as well or not). It just isn't right to make the cat suffer because you want the look of a wild cat, but not the risks.


So, IMO, I'd be a LOT more impressed if she was talking about later generations, how she planned to develope the breed, and didn't declaw her cats. Also, it would be a lot better if she was going for a smaller version in the end (i.e. 15 - 25lbs). I'd be REALLY interested if someone was using all domestic blood to try and create a caracal-looking cat. I may be waay off base here, but don't tufts usually only go along with med/long coat? I've never seen any (nice ones) on a SH domestic before.

Art

 

[magnoliachat]

Originally Posted by artgecko

OK, I'm of two minds on this one...

The "positives"
The F1s on her site look cool, and theoretically, I think a cat (domestic) with the coloring and physical features of a caracal (tufts, puma type dark facial markings, short tail) would be neat looking...

The "negatives"

-I'm not sure that breeding two vastly different sized cats is a good idea, much less two with such different gestation periods. This could lead to low survival rate (kittens and possibly the mother) as well as mother injury.

- The fact that she wants to only create F1s / F2s shows that she hasn't really thought this through.... A breed should develope....and I don't see much room for development if she's only going to go 2 generations from the wild cross... If she wants this to be an actual "breed" I think she needs to work on developing the traits she wants in later generations instead of taking the "easy way out" so to speak, by only going to F2.

- Declawing all of them? If she wants a large domestic/wild hybrid cat, she should accept (and all those wanting one) the risks involved. This is why they outlawed defanging of lions, etc. (can't remember if they outlawed declawing as well or not). It just isn't right to make the cat suffer because you want the look of a wild cat, but not the risks.


So, IMO, I'd be a LOT more impressed if she was talking about later generations, how she planned to develope the breed, and didn't declaw her cats. Also, it would be a lot better if she was going for a smaller version in the end (i.e. 15 - 25lbs). I'd be REALLY interested if someone was using all domestic blood to try and create a caracal-looking cat. I may be waay off base here, but don't tufts usually only go along with med/long coat? I've never seen any (nice ones) on a SH domestic before.

Art

Great post. I agree with everything you stated.

 

[sol]

Originally Posted by artgecko

I may be waay off base here, but don't tufts usually only go along with med/long coat? I've never seen any (nice ones) on a SH domestic before.

Tufts come in shorthaired cats to. One example is the Devon Rex, they sometimes come with ear tufts. Of course it's easier to get larger tufts in longhaired cats since they have... long hair.

But I'm sure good tufts would be possible to create in shorthaired cats if someone really put some energy into it.

 

[abbycats]

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

My wife, Teri thinks this Caracats thing is wrong too. So she sides with most of you, who have commented.

Just goes to show that we all have different opinions, even in a marriage.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, as the breed I love and work with is also from a wildcat/domestic cross.

I think it would be hypocritcal of me to dismiss it as rubbish without giving it a chance. I of course don't condone or approve of any Aby's being hurt in the process.

My husband was really interested in this new breed when I asked him for his opinion. He is the one who was intrigued with Bengals and had me look into them further before getting Zoey. I am glad he did that because now my household will never be without one

 

[artgecko]

Sol- Thanks, I had seen really skimpy tufts on one of my cats (sh) as a child, but haven't seen anything even near the caracal tuft on a SH cat.

Magnoliachat- Thanks, nice to know that I can write a post that makes sense after a day at work

Art

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by Sol

Once again I'm so happy I live in Sweden. Here it's illegal to breed wild animals with domesticated species, no matter what species we're talking about (so no, FI Bengals aren't legal to keep as pets here).

F5 is the earliest generation Bengal allowed over here, and I imagine there are few of those as not all breeders would be importing. I believe the Bengal is the only wild cat allowed over here.

Originally Posted by Sol

Personally I'm against all kind of hybridization between wild and domesticated species

So am I, so this is not a breed I have any interest in at all. My Ocicats are 'wild' enough for me

 

[thehouseofgods]

the biggest problem I would say that entails with breading a wild species with a domestic species, is the want for looks. As the cats become more domesticated their coat will change regardless of the background. I saw something once where someone was domesticating foxes, and he ended up with a black and white spotted fox. *shrug*

 

[goldenkitty45]

Since all cats are basically tabby (of some sort), I would suspect if you let them go an breed without interference, they would eventually all look tabby (brown, blue, reddish) and be medium in size with a medium muzzle (not extreme at all).

 

[magnoliachat]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Since all cats are basically tabby (of some sort), I would suspect if you let them go an breed without interference, they would eventually all look tabby (brown, blue, reddish) and be medium in size with a medium muzzle (not extreme at all).

We are about 200 years behind the dog in developing different type and personality. That is all changing now - too fast for some and not fast enough for others.

The fact is that all cats have wild in their genetic tree - some closer than others.

We are seeing all the differences now - size, shape, coat type, and personality. It will, most likely, continue.

I love my Bengals, Brambles, and Peterbalds. Wouldn't have any other breeds. I suspect we all feel similar about the breed (or mixed breed) that we have.

On this one cat, I have made my feelings known. I LOVE the look of the cat, but I worry about 3 things:
Size difference in mating and delivering
Gestation periods being different
and the disturbing thought of declawing all of them.

Those things coupled with this person not planning to breed generations, but keep them at F1 and 2's is disturbing. That makes this very different than the Bengal and the Savannah (and a few others).

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by Magnoliachat

Those things coupled with this person not planning to breed generations, but keep them at F1 and 2's is disturbing. That makes this very different than the Bengal and the Savannah (and a few others).

I don't think she's planning to stop at F1's and F2's. She has applied for and was granted experimental status for the Caracat with TICA. They will have some strict requirements for her if she ever hopes to have her breed accepted for championship status. One of which I'm sure will be F4 or F5 to be considered SBT.

If you're a TICA member, there is an article about her in the latest issue of the TICA Trend.

 

[magnoliachat]

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I don't think she's planning to stop at F1's and F2's. She has applied for and was granted experimental status for the Caracat with TICA. They will have some strict requirements for her if she ever hopes to have her breed accepted for championship status. One of which I'm sure will be F4 or F5 to be considered SBT.

If you're a TICA member, there is an article about her in the latest issue of the TICA Trend.

I am a TICA member, but haven't looked a the Trend lately. I will now. Seems early for her to apply for this. I have bred Brambles for 3 years, but was waiting for more breeders before applying for experimental status.

 

[hopehacker]

My thoughts on this, and I don't know if anyone else brought it up, but since she wants to keep the tufted ears, and since the Wild Cat is fairly large, why doesn't she try creating the breed with a Maine Coon? True, it will be harder to get the even toned fur, but it might work in keeping the tufted ears, maybe after F3 or so, she would have the proper sized cat to breed safely with an Aby in order to get the even toned fur, as well as the tufted ears.

 

[goldenkitty45]

She probably doesn't want a longhair cat - she sounds like she wants the shorthair aby/caracel looking cat. Mating to a MC would produce shorthairs in the first generation, but you'd be getting a heck of a lot of longhairs if sticking to the MC's.

And it might be harder to keep the ticked tabby because the MC's are Classic/Mackeral. I don't believe that ticked tabby MC's are acceptable in the breed.