Aggression Between Sibling Cats

jensmar

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Two of our three cats have been sporadically and seemingly inexplicably fighting with one another. One or both often ends up with scratches on their faces, clumps of fur missing, and we've found pieces of chipped-off claws. The cats are male and female, calico and tabby, 8 years old, and they are from the same litter. They have been together all their lives. They didn’t fight at all for the first 3-4 years I had them, but in approximately 2008 the aggressive behavior started. In the past, I was able to get things under control for a long period of time (a year or two) before they had another episode.

Starting when we were on vacation in mid September 2013, the fights keep re-occurring even though we thought we established peace and re-introduced them properly. In consultation with our vet, we put the cat we believed to be the aggressor on Fluoxetine, an anti-anxiety medication. She became calmer almost immediately and we thought we could re-introduce them. In October, they had a series of fights and we ultimately put both cats on Fluoxetine. In late November/early December, the non-aggressor cat was weaned off the medicine. On 12/17 they had another fight while we were at work. They fought again on 12/20 and again today.

Here’s what we’ve tried:

Feliway. I can’t tell if this pheromone made a difference but I used it for an extended period of time without any noticeable change from 2008-2010. It’s possible their fights may have been worse/more frequent without the Feliway but I have no way of judging. At the time, I lived in a small one bedroom apartment and could use diffusers in every room. I now live in a large loft with 19’ ceilings and a wide open floor plan. I don’t believe Feliway would effectively work in this home because of the amount of open space.

Separation. This is the best solution but is only temporary. The only room that can be blocked off is a small bathroom. It’s impossible to sleep with one cat in the bathroom because each cries incessantly when separated. This approach gives us peace of mind while we’re at work but it’s not a permanent solution.

Fluoxetine/anti-anxiety medication. Medication has worked wonders in the past. However, the cat we believe is the aggressor is on Fluoxetine now but obviously got into three fights in the past two weeks. Should both cats be on the medicine? For how long?

Play time. My girlfriend and I tried to engage the cats in regular playtime to help them exert energy and engage their hunting instincts. We also have a box of toys from which they can (and do) remove toys to play with themselves. Admittedly, we have not been hugely consistent in this effort due to work schedules but it’s something we do often. I can’t say if this approach changed anything.

Rewards/Punishments. We tried using a spray bottle to punish bad behavior and pre-fight behavior. One cat runs away immediately but the other is completely unaffected by the spray. She becomes hyper-focused on the aggressive behavior and no amount of redirection will stop her. She has to be separated. Moreover, we would prefer to reward their good behavior with treats but the calico is already overweight and shouldn’t have additional food. (What other methods can be used to reward good behavior?)

Nature’s Miracle cleaner. At the suggestion of our vet, following a fight, we thoroughly clean the area with an enzymatic cleanser that removes all smells/stains. The cats seem to have “trouble spots” in certain areas, to include the base of the steps, near our bookshelf, and near one of the water dishes. I have noticed less smelling of the area after a fight once it was cleaned so I believe this product removes smells but I don’t know if it’s effective in changing the bad behavior. Perhaps it’s one “ingredient” in restoring order.

We have three litter pans. They are cleaned regularly.

The cats get fed reasonable portions of wet food in the morning, evening, and before bed. Plus there is dry food available to the tabby on a high perch that is inaccessible to the calico. These perches are also “safe zones” for the non-aggressive cat.

My girlfriend and I are in our 30s, we do not have children, and we lead, stable, possibly boring lives. We each have our routines and try to stick to them but sometimes it’s not possible.

What else can we/should we consider? We’ve been working with a great vet but it feels like we’re running out of options. Our vet suggested we have a telephonic appointment with a cat behaviorist (no certified behaviorists are in the Pittsburgh area apparently) to discuss our concerns and attempt to develop alternative solutions. We’re open to a behaviorist but hope to avoid the expense, especially if it’s not likely to be effective. Has anyone else used a behaviorist? Was it in-person or telephonic? Should we consider an appointment? If so, what information should we be prepared to share with the behaviorist? Is there anything I haven’t considered here that you (or a behaviorist) might need to understand to diagnose/treat this situation?

Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thank you!!
 

mikell

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Hey Jensmar,we have been going through sibling fighting as well,our cats (sisters) are 16 months old,they got along great for 8 months and then had periodic fights, actually our one cat Jenny is 14# and Kayla is 8# and it was Jenny attacking hissing they would run around so fast Jenny would tackle Kayla and poor Kayla was so afraid she was peeing and pooing, we didn't see any signs of blood but the odd small clump of fur.We separated them for 3 days and it seemed to work for a month or so the she attacked again,separated a day/attack, separated 4 days/attack,we were getting kitchen renos done and we figured Jenny was stressed,after renos were finished,we got a collar for Jenny (feliway) and it seemed to calm her a little,we had them together for4 hrs a day for 3 days then we got our carpets cleaned,moved furniture around and downstairs,I guess this stressed her again because she tried to attack that day,anyway we separated them for almost 3 weeks over the holidays (had people staying over people coming and going)waited till things were calmed down,alternating who was locked up slowly introduced them gave wet food and treats for 4 days with the door slightly open so they see each other got a harness and leash for Jenny so she couldn't attack and brought them together playing with toy mice tied on string,did this 3hrs one day, 5 hrsnext day,8hrs 2 days in a row letting her walk around with the leash dragging, then took leash off and just left the harness,this is working now the harness seems to calm her down,we are going to get another harness for Kayla because she is hyper still quite a kitten..we also try natural calming liquid put it in their wet food they don't always eat it or soak treats in it,there is spray(feliway) you could try too. We are feeling better we were getting stressed and didn't want to put poor Kayla through it anymore, we almost gave Jenny away twice but just couldn't, had to keep trying, she is a wonderful affectionate cat..I know you can't separate them very easily but maybe try collar,harness,leash,there are also snug " shirts" you can get to calm them,we may try these as well, and hope we don't have to resolve to kitty prozac.Anyway Good luck. Have you moved lately or anything that may cause stress? Mike
 

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Something must have happened in 2008. Did you guys move? Had a new significant other? Roommates? Change in job or schedule?

So this episode happened after you went on vacation. Something may have triggered then. Cats are very sensitive to changes and they can deal with stress in many ways. Inappropriate urination is a fairly common example, but perhaps one of your cats had redirect his/her stress to the others. Also, not to say that you didn't re-introduce them properly, but how long did you take to re-introduce them? Did you take it super slow? Sometimes it can take months, if not years for the introduction to be "complete". Here's a link to properly introduce two cats just in case: http://www.thecatsite.com/a/introducing-cats-to-cats

Feliway sometimes works. For some, it doesn't. And for others it works if they plug it in for a couple weeks, leave it off, and plug it in again for another two weeks. It really depends on the cat. With the amount of open space, all I could suggest if you do try Feliway again is that you put it in every room. I mean, every room. You can also look into Jackson Galaxy's Spirit Essences: http://store.jacksongalaxy.com/category-s/1849.htm  and also Rescue Remedy (this is for internal) http://www.bachflower.com/rescue-remedy-information/. There are also calming treats that you may be able to use: .

Regarding the separation. I understand where you are coming from. It's quite frustrating.

The medication I am not too sure what to say. I don't have any experience giving psychiatric medication. However, I can say these types of medication take a while to actually see effect. I would know because of my own disability - you'll want to give it at least a month, ideally longer to see if it's working or not..

Have you tried having a routine with play? This is really important. One day you can play with the female cat while your girlfriend plays with the male cat, vice versa. Everyday. Until they start to pant. They really need to be exhausted daily, couple times a day. If needed, keep them separated in their own domain until you see improvement. This is also part of the reintroduction routine. What sorts of toys are in the box of toys? Toys that are for independent play should be routinely switched around to keep interest, but also, not leave any interactive toys out. 

Rewards/Punishments. We tried using a spray bottle to punish bad behavior and pre-fight behavior. One cat runs away immediately but the other is completely unaffected by the spray. She becomes hyper-focused on the aggressive behavior and no amount of redirection will stop her. She has to be separated. Moreover, we would prefer to reward their good behavior with treats but the calico is already overweight and shouldn’t have additional food. (What other methods can be used to reward good behavior?)

No spray bottle. A better idea would be to use a can filled with pennies. You can shake it, and it'll make a loud noise to distract/scare off the fight. The spray bottle will make the cats fear you - they don't understand punishment. Sometimes, if they are figuring things out - fights will happen, and you need to let them sort things, unfortunately. Rewarding their good behavior is good - there are lower calorie treats out there such are Pure Bites http://www.purebites.com/products/en/dog/chicken/, You can also use play as a reward, or just showing affection.

Nature's Miracle is pretty crap for me when it comes to cleaning urine. I'm not sure what you are using it for though - are they marking? In fact, do they mark at all? Also, three litter boxes is good. But you may have to put more out, or relocate a few of them. How many are in the calico's turf versus how many are in the tabby's? 

Not to hijack this thread into a wet vs dry response but I'd get rid of the dry. It may trigger territorial issues because of the fact that the calico can "smell" the food, and resource guarding can happen. Plus if you're feeding wet already so it should be fairly easy to switch to all wet. You don't want them to compete for resources: http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-multi-cat-household.

Finally, you may want to check out Jackson's Galaxy's show My Cat From Hell if you haven't yet. He's an animal behaviorist that specialises in cats who works mainly in the west coast - but he also comes to the east time to time. I do think an animal behaviorist will benefit, although I have not used one ever. Personally I'd try re-introducing them again, properly if you haven't, and take it really slow.

Hope this helps a little, if anything.
 
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shadowsrescue

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Excellent advice from Pinkman!!  Following the guidelines in the cat to cat introductions is a must.  I have used it a few times and it really does help.  You just have to remember it can take weeks or longer to complete.  Make sure you don't move to the next step too quickly. 

During the cat to cat introductions when I was ready for sight visits, I would use a large dog crate.  I would place one of the cats inside and then cover the crate on 3 sides.  This will allow the cat to safely smell each other without the fear of being attacked.  I would also play string with them while one is inside and reward with something over the top delicious such plain cooked chicken or tuna.  Also keep the interactions short.  You want each session to end on a positive note before turning negative.  Some days I would use the dog crate idea 3 or more times for 5 minute sessions. 

Jackson Galaxy has great advice and great remedies.  I have used lots of his Spirit Essences as well as Bach flower remedies too.  I also like Green Hope Farms Animal collection of flower essences.

I have also used Composure feline treats and Composure liquid Max calming formulas.  The treats need to be given 3 at a time and often take 45 minutes or longer to work.  I prefer the liquid formula that I mix in their wet food.  I would give it to the cats 2x a day and it would start to work in 20 minutes and last about 8 hours.  I dose both cats even though one is more aggressive.

I know how terribly frustrating and upsetting it is when your cats don't get along.  You so want peace and harmony.  I also tend to keep my two separated as much as possible.  When I am not home, I know they cannot be trusted so one has to be put away.  Fortunately I work from home so I am not gone all day.  Also my more aggressive cat has a room of his own where he goes at night.  It's just not worth it to worry about them all night long.

Keep us posted on the progress!
 

mikell

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Well whatever we did with Kayla and Jenny seemed to work- separating for 20 days feeding though slightly open door 4 or 5 days,harness and leash for Jenny 3days,let her walk around dragging leash for 2 days,then just harness,and got 2nd and harness for Kayla,well they are together full time now for 3 days ( both still wearing harnesses) and cuddling at times..the stress that Jenny was under seems to have gone completely:clap:
 

mikell

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Well whatever we did with Kayla and Jenny seemed to work- separating for 20 days feeding though slightly open door 4 or 5 days,harness and leash for Jenny 3days,let her walk around dragging leash for 2 days,then just harness,and got 2nd and harness for Kayla,well they are together full time now for 3 days ( both still wearing harnesses) and cuddling at times..the stress that Jenny was under seems to have gone completely
 

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It's crazy that I found this thread, as it's very close to what happened with my cats George and Ira this morning.  I have two 7 year old males who are litter mates. They have always gotten along, grooming each other, cuddling, and occasionally wrestling/play fighting.  What happened this morning was very different. 

Ira attacked George. Not the normal playful swatting or wrestling. Ira straight up lost his mind, started screaming, and chased George throughout the apartment, until they both ended up under my bed just screaming at each other. These, horrible, guttural screams. I took my robe from the bathroom and was able to throw it over Ira, capture him, and put him in the bathroom. Then I trapped George in the bedroom and let Ira out into the main part of the apartment once they had calmed down a little. After a couple of hours, I tested to see if they could be reintroduced (obviously, this was before I read about how to properly reintroduce cats). I opened the bedroom door a little. They looked at each other, George hissed and Ira started screaming again and RAN toward the door. I quickly shut it before he could get in. :-( This is so awful. I was able to switch them so that Ira is now in the bedroom and George is in the main part. I called the vet and explained what happened.  She said to keep them separated for at least 24 hours and I made vet appt for Ira Monday morning. Poor George is traumatized. They each cry incessantly when I'm with the other one (I live alone). I had to go out and buy another litter box so Ira can go to potty in the bedroom. I'm absolutely terrified and heartbroken. What if they can't be together anymore? What will I do? I'm so hoping it's something medical that can be fixed, but Ira's also lost weight. He still does eat and everything, but he definitely lost weight. I'm sitting here in my bed, crying, with Ira on my lap and George out in the main room alone. I feel so bad for George. He is clearly upset and doesn't understand what's going on. When he hears Ira in the bedroom, he hisses, and he doesn't understand why I can't be with him.  This really sucks. Nothing like this has EVER happened.
 

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Anything happen this morning to stress them out,move any furniture,did either see another cat or dog?
 

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Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. I'm hoping that it's something medical going on with Ira. I really REALLY don't want to have to do the whole reintroduce thing.  Having them in separate rooms is utterly insane because they both cry and scratch at the doors ALL NIGHT.  I have gotten about 2.5 hours of sleep.  It's not sustainable.  I wonder if it would be worth it to board one of the cats until I figure out what going on? Worried that will just traumatize more, but I need sleep.
 

mikell

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Going to boarding may make it worse because of different smells to your other cat when they return,same as taking to the vet,I read that it’s a good idea to take them both to the vet even only one is getting checked out,but it is a very good idea to get Ira checked though
 

tdonline

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If you click on my posts, you'll see I'm going through the same exact situation--since mid-November.  Due to the small apartment environment and the incessant crying was adding to the stress, my vet recommended going with fluoxentine.  I think if I had a house where I could truly separate my cats, I may have put off medication.  But since I live in a small one-bedroom apartment, I felt medication was needed as the stress on the cats and human was increasing.  Increasing their stress and anxiety while living separately seemed pointless in terms of rebuilding their relationship. The aggressor cat is on 5mg daily and the non-aggressor but very vocal cat is on 2.5mg.  

It sounds like the OP has gone through this situation for years and I admit it's worrying that her aggressor cat is still attacking even on medication.  My cats are only seeing each other behind ajar doors and carriers.  I hate to  admit it but I'm really hesitant about moving onto open interaction--each time I think about this step, I remember the horrible fights.
 

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If you click on my posts, you'll see I'm going through the same exact situation--since mid-November.  Due to the small apartment environment and the incessant crying was adding to the stress, my vet recommended going with fluoxentine.  I think if I had a house where I could truly separate my cats, I may have put off medication.  But since I live in a small one-bedroom apartment, I felt medication was needed as the stress on the cats and human was increasing.  Increasing their stress and anxiety while living separately seemed pointless in terms of rebuilding their relationship. The aggressor cat is on 5mg daily and the non-aggressor but very vocal cat is on 2.5mg.  

It sounds like the OP has gone through this situation for years and I admit it's worrying that her aggressor cat is still attacking even on medication.  My cats are only seeing each other behind ajar doors and carriers.  I hate to  admit it but I'm really hesitant about moving onto open interaction--each time I think about this step, I remember the horrible fights.
tdonline - thank you SO MUCH for this. Although it is pretty disheartening that you haven't been able to reintroduce your cats yet.  I've only been going through this for a day and a half, I cannot imagine doing this for more than a month. It sounds like the fluoxentine helps with the crying, though?  Does it quieten them down at night? I'd like to hear more about this. Do you have trouble giving it to them? Is it in pill form, etc?

My plan right now is this: take the aggressive cat to the vet tomorrow morning to see if anything medically is wrong (I'm hoping it is - maybe some kind of pain? tooth pain?). Hopefully get some kind of advice/medication from the vet to help with the incessant crying (and the aggressor cat still sometimes gutturally screams at the other cat through the door). Keep them separated until my friend comes and visits next weekend.  She has offered to take the victim cat back home with her to the mountains in SCAL (I'm in the Bay Area). This is not ideal, but I feel like it's what's needed to keep us all sane and healthy. I can continue to try to find out what's wrong with the aggressor cat, and we'll all be able to sleep at night. My friend is VERY experienced with cats and her mom had a similar situation with two of her cats. Our hope is that in a month or two (my friend is planning on moving up the bay area soon), we can work on successfully reintroducing them. And, hopefully if there's something medical going on it might be resolved by then.

The crazy thing with my situation is that my two cats are 7 year old brothers who have never shown anything but affection. This really leads me to believe something is actually wrong with Ira. Hopefully I can get it resolved.  Thank you so much, tdonline. I will look at your posts.  So glad I came across this forum and I'm not the only one going through this!
 

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I know it is worrying and stressful,we almost gave the aggresor away, we were actually going through it since August and a few times before that,and now we have ours together it is like walking on eggshells so not to stress them,it is like looking after babies,even when we took our Christmas tree and all the decorations down we locked them up separately, as I mentioned before ours are both wearing harnesses full time they seem to calm them,and they have been together full time for 4 days now,we may look into the snug shirts but they are $35 each
 

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It's really good to hear about these tricks now, since I"m so early in the process....I will think about harnesses and snug shirts.  If all goes well and my friend takes George, the victim cat, I'll have some weeks to figure out a plan, not only doing the towel scent introduction thing but also calming treats and maybe a snug shirt for Ira.  Not sure yet.  But maybe while George is away I can try some things on Ira to practice calming him.  Thank you guys!
 

tdonline

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tdonline - thank you SO MUCH for this. Although it is pretty disheartening that you haven't been able to reintroduce your cats yet.  I've only been going through this for a day and a half, I cannot imagine doing this for more than a month. It sounds like the fluoxentine helps with the crying, though?  Does it quieten them down at night? I'd like to hear more about this. Do you have trouble giving it to them? Is it in pill form, etc?
Jill,one reason the reintroduction process has been slow is because I've had two trips during the last 7 weeks.  I actually just returned today after 11 days away.  So I'll answer your questions in piecemeal as I'm dead tired after 13 hours delay in my flight plan and am readying myself for work tomorrow.

The fluoxentine has definitely helped both cats.  Dory stopped overt signs of aggression on 5mg dosage.  Prior to medication, she would try to attack her sister behind closed doors ;(.  On 2.5mg, she would still hiss and when there were accidental meetings, still attacked.  Josie did stop crying--as much.  Enough for sleep and sanity but she'll always be alpha in terms of human interaction and attention.  Ominously today, I went to nap in the bedroom and she interrupted by crying loudly at the hallway door.  I had to continue the nap by leaving the bedroom and napping with her on the sofa.  I think she's particularly needy since I was away for almost 2 weeks, hopefully we will be able to return to our sleep routine.

This has worked so far: I play with both cats at night.  I play particularly hard and long with Josie since she is the vocal one and exiled from the bedroom (Dory's domain).  They both get fed their 2nd wet meal of the day.  I get ready for bed.  When it's time, I steer Josie towards her carrier which is where she sleeps.  Sometimes she goes in, sometime she doesn't.  Either way, I speak softly to her ("Time to go to bed, Josie"), turn off the lights and close the hallway and bedroom doors.  I go to bed.  I don't do anything else because I don't want to provide any distraction for Josie.  This is why I try to get everything done before I close the doors.  So if  forget my mouthguard for example, I skip it for the night as walking out, turning on lights, etc would break the sleep time ritual.  So far, this has resulted in Josie leaving us alone throughout the night.  I don't know what she's doing out in the living room, but she's not crying or banging on the doors.  Around 7:30am she does meow softly to let me know it's time to come out.  

It saddens me that we have to do this as Josie used to sleep on my legs.  I miss that and I feel bad Josie's alone overnight.  But I can't have Josie making a racket since there is nary any sound proofing in my apartment and my neighbors would hear her crying.  This is the routine that works...hopefully we can restart it tonight.  
 

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Thank you so much, tdonline, I feel like I know what to ask about with the vet tomorrow and I may even get some of that sleep and sanity tomorrow night if they are a bit drugged! Same as you, Ira tries to attack George even with the door closed.  It would be great to at least lessen the horrible guttural screaming. :-(  I do think that Josie's crying today had more to do with you being away. I keep thinking how much easier this whole thing would be if I lived with someone. :-( Then one of us could be with each cat and we would all be a bit happier. One of us could sleep on the couch with George and the other can sleep in the bed with Ira.  Oh, well.

I just tried playing hard with each cat tonight. It was difficult. I don't think I played with them hard enough, but they get uninterested in playing kind of quickly. I may need to upgrade my toys and get something with a feather.  As with you, I played longer with George who is more vocal and exiled from the bedroom. I played pretty consistently with him for about a half hour. Probably not enough? And not hard enough. Do you have any tips to getting the kitties to play hard? Any toys or techniques you use?

Also, the tough thing is that the whole time I'm playing with George in the living room, Ira is crying in the bedroom.  They react to each other's crying, especially when it gets guttural and particularly loud. This is why I think to have a true separation, I need my friend to take George for a while. It makes me cry to think about it because he's my mushy man, but I think it's the only way for all of us to be happy and healthy.

I can't use carriers for my boys because they HATE them. Even though they are out in my main room all the time, every time I put the cats in the carriers, they start screaming (like they are going to the vet).

Right now I'm in the bedroom with Ira on my lap and George intermittently screaming in the living room. :-( Can't wait to get some calming meds from the vet tomorrow. I got a spray thing from the pet store but it doesn't seem to have any effect whatsoever. I did just order the composure treats. It's been really helpful reading about your journey. I totally feel you about the neighbors. Our walls are also very thin, but luckily I have a corner apartment so the only apartment that shares a wall with me is on the other side of the bedroom. But then it's really important to make sure Ira doesn't scream again, especially in the morning.

Good luck and keep us updated!

Here's a pic of George and Ira in happier times. Ira is black and George is a tabby. Like you, I'm afraid I won't ever see this again. :-(

 

tdonline

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A quick reply before playing with Josie.  My Dory looks like George.  Josie is all dak grey with an almost white undercoat.

All you described is exactly what I was/am going through.  Dory couldn't play either because she was so fixated on Josie and it was worse when the latter would cry.  Again, fluoxetine has helped immensely in this regard.  I would definitely talk to your vet about this option. Explain why your living situation may warrant skipping to meds now and not later.  It's not a perfect remedy, there are side effects which I have to diligently manage.

Ultimately I want my sibling cats to be friends again or at the very least, live together.  So for me, giving one away, even on a temporary basis isn't really an option.  I just feel like that's the nuclear bomb option and I will do every thing else before removal from home.  That's why I was quick to turn to medication though I know it's not ideal.
 

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I wish you all the luck,that picture is so cute,take the process slowly,our separation/reintroduction took 20 days,and we only got them together so long3/4hrs,5hrs,8hrs etc,we didn't want to push it so all together it was I think 26 days till they were together full time
 

tdonline

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 It sounds like the fluoxentine helps with the crying, though?  Does it quieten them down at night? I'd like to hear more about this. Do you have trouble giving it to them? Is it in pill form, etc?
I went through a few ways to deliver the medication and am now using a method that has worked for 3 weeks.  I have fluoxetine in 10mg tablet form and giving it to the cats in tab was a pain.  Even when I hid it in their food or treats, they would wise up quickly because they would taste the pill.  I stumbled on dividing and crushing the pills into gel caps (I use size 4) and making them an offer they can't refuse: a teaspoon of liver or friskies pate with half a sachet of fortiflora (it has animal digest which is what flavors dry food) and a few kibbles.  It's basically the ice cream sundae for kitties.  I place the capsule in the mixture and in the process of lapping up their treat, they inhale the capsule.  I also add a bit of water and generic miralax to combat the constipation due to the medication.  The capsule neutralizes the taste of the pill and the cats don't seem to be bothered by it.

When I re-up the prescription, I'm going to ask for the capsule so I can just open it up and redistribute to the empty gel capsules.

I'm relieved to report the sleep time routine worked last night.
 
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bonniewood

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I am having the same problem with a 8-year old Siamese and a 10-year old Maine Coon. They have been together since the Siamese was 9 weeks old. The Main coon has bitten the Siamese on the butt twice one year apart. Both times the bite required vet visit for the Siamese. The Siamese is a male and the aggressor. Right now I am using the spray bottle which works pretty well. Haven't tried meds yet. Does anyone know what happens to cats to cause this??
 
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