Against not going to the vet

[catsallaround]

Have you had pets or this is your first that you are in charge of medically?  I think I can safely say EVERYONE hates to have to euthanize but there comes a time in MANY cats lives if they are inside 24/7 or allowed into an enclosed area that you have to make a that choice.  In my experience I knew for most of them that it was time(or within my means).

Getting back on topic, Some things work some don't.  Some people come up with things that "work" that are either toxic or work less then a conventional way  Issue is someone may see this and think ok no vet is required and then the cat dies when a simple shot or 2 times a day antibiotics would have cured the cat.

Sometimes something else helps the pet get better.  Stress brings out alot.  When a pet gets sick you spend alot more time with it.  You find a better food to feed if possible.  Switch to wet or maybe even raw.  Nothing wrong with natural treatments but at the same time a vet should be involved to get base blood work done.

Do you know what your cats PH was?  or if there was any elevations at that time in bloodwork.  Down the road that may be important info to have.
 

 

[minka]

Gosh, must I repeat myself? This is not a post saying that you should wait it out and try home care while your pet needs medical care. It is a post questioning why people are against home care that works.

I was going to say a thing earlier, but decided not to, but I think I'll say it now.

On the spectrum of things, this site is really open to 'unorthodox' things. We are the forum that will tell you to ignore your vet's nutritional advice, to question what they say, to get a second opinion and to try various medicinal herbs.
However... the distinction I think is that the methods you used and the advice given to you, were iffy at best. They were wive's tale kind of remedies, that while they MAY work, they also may NOT have. And when it comes to that kind of situation, it's much better to err on the side of caution and let a professional take a long rather than have caused Fluffy's untimely death.



Also, I'm too lazy to go back and quote it, but on your comments about euthanasia I've noticed there are two distinct groups. Groups like myself that are not hesitant to euthanize, and groups that are. If I see an animal suffering, and medical care is limited and/or the animal is aged with not much chance of recovery, I would MUCH rather see the animal's misery be put to an end than to keep trying what-ifs. What-ifs don't haunt me. 'Did I let Fluffy suffer to long?' does.

 

[ldg]

Spooky has an issue with FLUTD and struvite crystals. In April, when she was in and out of the box, I took her to the vet. There were no crystals in her pee. We did have the culture done, and there was no infection, even though there was some blood. We had an ultrasound done: there were three stones in her bladder, which was inflamed from the irritation (thus the blood). Because there were no crystals in her pee, we didn't know if the stones were calcium oxalate or struvite. Struvite can be dissolved by lowering urine pH (hers was 8.5, quite high). Calcium oxalate stones cannot be dissolved. The vet normally recommends surgery for something like that.

We discussed options with the vet. And we decided to give her pain meds and put her on an anti-inflammatory to address the pain and inflammation. We put her on methionine to lower her urine pH. If the stones were struvite, they would dissolved, and no surgery would be needed. I kept track of her urine pH. I kept her on the pred and methionine (an acidifying amino acid) for a month, and gave her sub-q fluids every other day for 10 days.

After several months, her urine pH started to creep back up. So before there were any signs of a problem (other than the urine pH), I took her back to the vet for another ultrasound to see whether or not the stones had been dissolved. And they had! But there was still a little "sludge" left in her bladder. So we put her back on methionine (a urine acidifier), and did another two rounds of sub-q fluids at home. I don't know if it's all cleared up or not, but her pH is stable so far. :cross:

Here's an example of home treatment - yet working with the vet. We used the vet for the diagnosis, but didn't take the traditional course of treatment: antibiotics and surgery. She didn't have an infection, so didn't need antibiotics. And the stones turned out to be something that COULD be dissolved, and didn't need surgery. Because I was giving her an acidifier, I kept track of her pH so I wouldn't accidentally take her pH too far the other direction and risk calcium oxalate crystals/stones. And because I know she has a problem with stress-induced FLUTD, and I don't necessarily know what stresses her, I keep track of her urine pH all the time now, so I know when a problem is starting before it even progresses to a point where she would be in pain or passing blood from an inflamed bladder wall.

In the raw forum, we help people resolve kitty's problems with mysterious vomiting or diarrhea all the time - when it turns out it's been IBD. Most people by the time they're even willing to consider raw have been seeing vets for months (or longer) to no resolve of the problem. But if there's a possibility it could be from parasites or cancer, I/we obviously recommend that those are eliminated as possibilities.

Ring worm? Try topical colloidal silver.

Acne? Again, use colloidal silver, and switch to glass dishes for your kitty.

There are many things that can be addressed at home. But I think its irresponsible to tackle anything of question without proper diagnosis. What if that "IBD" is cancer? What if that diarrhea is T. Foetus? What if that partial blockage is calcium oxalate crystals, not struvite? What if that allergy is skin mites, not a food problem?

Of course we can do many things to treat our kitties at home. But IMO, it's best to make those decisions based on a vet's diagnosis, if possible, and to work with your vet on treatment options, whether conventional or not.

 

[Willowy]

I don't think anybody here is against home remedies that work. But will they work? :dk: When a cat has a life-threatening problem is not the time to experiment.

 

[arlyn]

Here in the US it is actually illegal in most states to deny your animals proper medical care, thus a risk that you will forfeit ownership.

I'm all for home remedies, AFTER consulting a vet.

Some situations you simply cannot treat as there are underlying causes and you'd only be treating symptoms you see, but not the cause.

 

[jenl]

I think if it is a minor problem, then that is one thing, but if a cat is terribly ill, has been severely injured, or shot, they need medical treatment. And the problem is, cats *hide* pain. At least many do. So if a cat is visibly showing pain, it's probably in more pain than you think. 

There is a time for home remedies (safe of course) and a time for medical treatment.

 

[ritz]

I think JenL kind of hit the nail on the head.  It the problem could--however remote--result in death, then Ritz goes to the vet NOW.  If it is a minor inconvenience (oh, she threw up again?) then at the least I'll wait, research, post inquiries on these sites and use my gut feeling about Ritz.

Recently Ritz was throwing up, three times in 36 hours though her appetite was up/down.  She lives to eat (and get her belly rubbed).  Now Ritz throws up sometimes, she just does, especially if she eats cat grass.  That is kind of 'normal' for her--but not three times in 36 hours with no cat grass around.  Also I'd observed, albeit late, that she was chewing on a blanket.  So I did some research on these forums and started a thread and sought advice.

Conclusions:  minor problem:  a simple upset stomach, will pass, no vet needed.  Major problem:  eating a string and it getting twisted around her intestine, emergency surgery or death.

So I took her to the vet.  Turned out it was a minor problem, since resolved.

I hate taking Ritz to the vets because it's traumatic for her (as in nails torn trying to get out of the cat carrier) and for me (emotionally--I have pet insurance).  If I were more confident in my abilities as a cat owner, I might self-treat more.  But I know enough to know I don't know.

 

[ldg]

I don't think anybody here is against home remedies that work. But will they work? :dk: When a cat has a life-threatening problem is not the time to experiment.

For instance, the vinegar for a male urinary problem. You got lucky. Either it was an infection that cleared up without antibiotics, or it was struvite crystals, and the vinegar helped. But it could have been oxalate crystals, and the vinegar would have done nothing.

So recommending someone else use vinegar is just dangerous, unless they also understand the risk (that a complete blockage can be the result of lack of proper treatment - and once completely blocked, the treatment will cost much more, likely result in a hospital stay of two or more days, catheterization at a minimum, and potentially surgery, and if a vet isn't seen within 24 hours of a complete or almost complete blockage, can result in a very painful death).

 

[carolina]

For instance, the vinegar for a male urinary problem. You got lucky. Either it was an infection that cleared up without antibiotics, or it was struvite crystals, and the vinegar helped. But it could have been oxalate crystals, and the vinegar would have done nothing.
So recommending someone else use vinegar is just dangerous, unless they also understand the risk (that a complete blockage can be the result of lack of proper treatment - and once completely blocked, the treatment will cost much more, likely result in a hospital stay of two or more days, catheterization at a minimum, and potentially surgery, and if a vet isn't seen within 24 hours of a complete or almost complete blockage, can result in a very painful death).

Oh yeah - the vinegar would done something if it was oxalate - It would make matters much worst
You do not want to acidify the kitty's urine when the kitty has oxalate - which is why vets will be the first to tell you NO vinegar, no Cranberries, no acidifiers for a kitty who has oxalate.
Treating a kitty with a blockage at home is plain and simple a Russian Roulette, and IMHO should not be advised anywhere in this forum.
The OP IMHO was extremelly lucky - but there is a point where lucky runs out..... Hopefully the OP will manage a way to put some $$$ aside for vet care in the future, since this urinary issue happened not once, but twice.... Who knows what is going to happen on the third time.

I am the first one to use natural/home care. I do a lot. I do not use antibiotics lightly, do not use medications just for nothing, and don't go to the vet just for anything. Actually, antibiotics for me are used in worst case scenario - I learned my lesson. BUT - every herb, every natural supplement, every natural treatment I have EVER given to my pets have been discussed, researched by and approved by my vet. I do not give them ANYTHING he doesn't know or approve of. I do not replace natural care for vet care - one goes with the other.
My vet understands my position, and works with me - he is open to it, and when he doesn't know a supplement, he researches it. In no way shape or form, home/natural care means no vet care IMHO.
In my house, vet care is a priority, like food is. When they are ill, there are no ifs or buts. I have been in a situation where my three cats were sick and I was unemployed, in a BAD financial situation - it took me selling pretty much all my valuables and begging for money - but they had the care they needed to get well. I made a commitment to them the day I adopted them, and the way I see, throughout their lives my life will be full of ups and downs...... My commitment will be the same - they will always be taken care of, no matter what. It is not their fault.

 

[ldg]

Good point Carolina. Yes, if oxalate, vinegar would make things worse. :nod: It's definitely NOT correct to say the use of vinegar would do nothing.

 

[catbehaviors]

Thanks for giving some explanations to why you may seem anti- any home remedy. I'm definitely glad to see that ya'll are open to more natural type care. I suppose I just didn't see it before.

I do agree, it is not a good idea to try treating your pet without knowing what they have. However, sometimes it is the only possible thing that can be done. I would only recommend a risky home treatment to someone that had no other choice.

I would like to thank you Carolina for informing me on calcium oxalate stones- I hadn't heard of them before. My cat actually eats vinegar in his food every day. I didn't know that I could potentially be harming him by feeding him that way.

 

[ldg]

What you can do is buy pH test strips. They cost like $2.00 for a pack of 80 or something. If you are able to put the strip in his pee stream, you can keep track of his pH at home. It should be 6.25 - 6.5. 6.0 isn't horrible, but not good long term, and 7.0 isn't horrible, but not good long term. High pH means the risk of struvite crystals; low pH is the risk of oxalate crystals. Oxalate crystals cannot be dissolved by diet, and if they turn into stones, or kitty has concentrated urine, the only way to manage them is via catheterization or surgery.

Urine pH will change throughout the day in relation to when food was eaten. If he free feeds, don't worry about it. But it's best measured 4 hours after a meal.

 

[minka]

Yea, I wouldn't give him any more vinegar in his food; doesn't sound like a good idea.

 

[just mike]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I would like an answer to this question. Why is everyone so against self treating pets?? If it is something that works, how is it so different from going to the vet and paying them thousands of dollars to do the same thing? I can see that ya'll may be worried that the treatment might not work and the cat would be in pain and possibly die- but why not accept that we don't always have to run to the vet when our cats are ill? (I'm mainly talking about when Wessie couldn't urinate and I used to apple cider vinegar to treat it. Many other people have found that it worked for them and it sure worked for me. Twice.)
Oh- and I might add that Wessie also didn't go to the vet when he was shot. I think he got very lucky there, as it was in his leg, not near his vital organs.

I have many thoughts and opinions on this but I'll try to be brief. I have had enough experience with animals, dogs cats and horses that is, to realize my ability to home treat my animals. That said; I believe that cats are different in that they do not always exhibit symptoms of an underlying issue which I can NOT treat. My animals are not taken to the vet for everything but in the case say as the blockage you described, I'd immediately have them at the vet's office. A blockage is nothing for me to try and second guess with any of my animals. I simply do not trust my own ability to diagnose. Granted, the vet is not always right but I've found that with a vet's help, most of the time we are able to identify and correct the issue.

I also do a TON of research on things. An example of that would be when they thought Ramsey had the dry form of FIP when I first brought him home. I refused to believe he had it and researched, researched and more research. I finally found a woman in Florida that had a cat that was thought to have FIP but did not. I treated Ramsey, with the help of my vet, exactly the same way she did her cat. Voile' he has had no issues since and he was one sick little kitten. Luckily my vet is a good one and he is always open to discussing and researching new ideas. He is heavily into dog and cat rescue as well and is up on his nutritional information as well. So I do trust him. I don't mind or regret spending the thousands of dollars that I have on my pet. They are my family. I know that I am fortunate to be able to do this. I am grateful for it. I know some people are not as fortunate so home remedies may very well be a workable solution for their issues.

 

[dr tim]

I believe it may revolve around being able to diagnose diseases correctly and then initiating the appropriate treatment, be it conventional or non traditional. People cannot advocate self diagnosis on a forum like this, regardless if they believe in it or not as that would be medical advice without the credentials.  Agree with it or not, moderators shouldn't do that.

Cats are very tough animals but do need some professional assistance at times.

 

[howie]

Gosh, must I repeat myself? This is not a post saying that you should wait it out and try home care while your pet needs medical care. It is a post questioning why people are against home care that works.

Just had to comment on this...

I noticed my 6 month old kitten Howie had become constipated one day so I just shrugged and gave him canned pumpkin to help him move his bowels, because constipation is not so serious right? It happens to everyone now and then and I've helped my cats with it before. We had also switched him to a different food the previous week, so that would explain it. Pumpkin is a great home remedy for diarrhea and constipation and Howie was able to move little bullet-hard stools on the pumpkin and with me massaging him. He was looking a little bloated but I figured it was gas. I was hoping with the pumpkin it'd all get better after a few days. Well, a few days later Howie stopped playing, so I took him to the vet and to make a long story short, Howie died of wet FIP two weeks later. Constipation was his first symptom; the "bloating" was ascites. There was nothing that could have saved him if I had brought him to the vet earlier, but what if it had been a different disease or ailment that could have been helped by a vet? I don't leave anything to chance anymore. If anything seems off, we go to the vet. Sometimes I go to the vet for a random checkup just because I want to feel reassured. My 8 year old dog is 100% healthy, but I take her for checkups every 3 months and baseline blood-work every 6 months, because it's reassuring.

I'm an engineer and my instinct is always to fix something myself first if I can, but having gone through FIP and caring for my other animals, I've learned that I'm just not a vet. Internet research and fluke cures that "worked that one time" on my pet is nothing to 8 years of veterinary school, lifelong research, and many years of practice with thousands of different animals. Every time one of my animals has been sick I've agonized over what it might be until we could get to the vet, going through tens or a hundred different websites and articles, asking advice on forums, etc... By the time we get to the vet I feel confident from what I read that I know what my animal is suffering from... and I'm almost always wrong, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. To my uneducated eyes, Howie just looked constipated, but within minutes of bringing him to the vet, she knew his situation was probably fatal. To your eyes, your cat looked like it couldn't urinate; to a vet he might have something much more serious, or something that can't be treated with "vinegar."

I say stop playing a vet, because you're not, and the internet or your limited experience is no substitute. Sometimes home remedies will work, but that's only if our uneducated guess at a diagnosis happens to be right for the remedy that one time. And hopefully the symptom you're treating isn't just part of a much larger, systemic problem and you're not missing the forest for the trees... What it comes down to is this: unless you're a vet, you're stabbing in the dark.

 

[white shadow]

Just had to comment on this...


I don't leave anything to chance anymore...

I say stop playing a vet, because you're not, and the internet or your limited experience is no substitute.... What it comes down to is this: unless you're a vet, you're stabbing in the dark.

Welcome to the forum, howie!

Well, I don't leave anything to chance anymore, either - based on my experience, others' experiences - as recounted in forums like this - and my own research in the "new library" of the Internet.

I hope that your discouragement of "playing a Vet" would not include the above

What a coincidence that this thread has just now appeared:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/242664/...ight-every-day-to-keep-her-alive#post_3289338

 

[howie]

Hi White Shadow, thanks for the welcome. :] Not sure how to interpret your post, but sorry if I came off too opinionated, as I tend to do. I think we agree that the internet and reading about others' experiences can be very useful, but usually only along with the concurrence and diagnosis from a trusted vet. Sometimes your case may not be what it appears to you to be, so it's good to have a vet's input. Obviously there are also gradations of experience that can be used to one's advantage. Someone who has been fostering kittens or raising cats for many years will probably prefer to keep a cat with a URI and no discharge at home and treat with L-Lysine rather than bring it to the vet and stress it out more. I'm not one of those people, so I go to my vet... who sends me home empty-handed and tells me to wait it out with L-Lysine. >_>

It's unfortunate what happened to the user you posted, but I think stresses the point that it's important to shop around for at least one vet you can trust, if your area allows you to. If you don't like your vet, research vets online, ask the people in your town who they go to, screen a candidate vet on your next checkup. Even ask the techs at the front desk what they think of the vet and you'll be surprised by how honest they are. I've had techs steer me away from the vet they work for. The qualities I look for in a vet:

* Takes copious notes on your pet during the exam 

* Always asks after its emotional state

* Always asks about your relationship with the pet, if you still enjoy each others' company and how

* Always asks about your other pets and how everyone gets along

* Will get on the phone personally with you when you have a question

* Networks with other vets and specialists (ask about it)

* Never tries to sell you anything

* Only uses medication or runs expensive tests as a last resort, not even if you ask for the test out of paranoia

And just to point out the dangers of trusting the internet for medical advice, I knew a human woman a few months ago who was having chest pains. She said it was really bad and would have assumed heart attack, but had read on the internet that women don't normally have chest pain during a heart attack; instead they have back pain and/or nausea. She didn't want to go the ER in case it was something like indigestion and she'd "look stupid". So she ignored it, and it turned out to be a heart attack... 

 

[smitten4kittens]

Thanks for giving some explanations to why you may seem anti- any home remedy. I'm definitely glad to see that ya'll are open to more natural type care. I suppose I just didn't see it before.

I do agree, it is not a good idea to try treating your pet without knowing what they have. However, sometimes it is the only possible thing that can be done. I would only recommend a risky home treatment to someone that had no other choice.
I would like to thank you Carolina for informing me on calcium oxalate stones- I hadn't heard of them before. My cat actually eats vinegar in his food every day. I didn't know that I could potentially be harming him by feeding him that way.

I think you answered your own question with your last 2 sentences : My cat actually eats vinegar in his food everyday. I DIDN'T KNOW that I could potentially be harming him by feeding him that way.

That is exactly why I recommend going to the vet.

 

[runekeeper]

I don't think there's anything wrong with using home remedies for health issues in general, whether for humans or animals. But I think sometimes it can be difficult to determine what the cause of certain symptoms is, especially when you cannot do blood/urine tests or any sort of internal imaging. But that applies to people too, not just kitties. If there is a minor issue, I don't see why it can't be treated at home. The question, though, is how can you tell for certain that it's a minor issue without going to the vet first? If you get a definite diagnosis from a vet that the kitty is ill with something that can be treated with natural remedies, I don't think it's a bad thing. It may just be a matter of finding a vet who is accepting of natural cures - someone who may be able to suggest additional home remedies should you not want to give your cat pills or shots. This can be difficult because there will always be vets who just want to push tests and medication on your pet, whether or not they're actually necessary.It's still a good thing to understand that, when going a natural route, sometimes you will need to still seek medical attention. Kind of like the women who want to have a natural home birth with no painkillers and all that - okay, that's their choice, but it is both wise and responsible to get to the doctor in the event home remedies don't work or complications arise. And I know some cat owners aren't too nuts about taking Kitty to the vet because of the costs, much like how many people don't see doctors because it costs too much. I've known more than one person who would take their cat and abandon it somewhere because it was acting in a way they did not approve of (like peeing on the floor or going into heat) and they felt the cat was not worth getting checked out. Or some people might even want to take their pet to the vet, but cannot afford it or don't have access to a clinic.I think I understand what you mean, and like I said, I don't think natural remedies are something to completely rule out for either humans or pets, so long as the remedies don't have side effects that rival the condition being treated. I just think the most ideal way to do things is to get a vet's blessing to ensure that the issue is something that can be treated at home by natural means and you aren't just treating a single symptom of a much larger problem. Also, I don't see a problem with using natural remedies alongside medical ones. Such as if your cat is ill with something more serious that requires medicine and you'd like to use a holistic approach to ease some of the symptoms while treating the overall condition with medication/therapy/etc. It's just so difficult to be absolutely certain about what is going on with the kitty that home-treatment could be relied upon without a veterinary opinion.