About a Siamese that isn’t a Siamese

[denice]

I am certainly no expert, not even a breeder or someone who shows cats, but I think the titles are before the advent of the modern Siamese. Some of the historic photos are of show cats of that time and the titles would still be part of a cats pedigree even though they are no longer eligible for showing.

 

[siameseohio]

Originally Posted by Denice

I am certainly no expert, not even a breeder or someone who shows cats, but I think the titles are before the advent of the modern Siamese. Some of the historic photos are of show cats of that time and the titles would still be part of a cats pedigree even though they are no longer eligible for showing.

Thank you Denice.

If that is the case then wouldn't they be 'show cats' still? If they were able to be showed and get titles, doesn't that make them show cats of that era?

I understand that people don't differentiate sometimes between what is called Show Siamese or Modern Siamese. But isn't a 'show cat' a cat that is able to be shown at a cat show such as a CFA or TICA show? Thank you for any insight that can be given.

Oh yea, I just considered. The standards for Siamese aren't the only breed that the standard has changed. Are the old style cats of other breeds that had received a title in the past no longer considered 'show cats'? Aren't they still show cats, although from a historical stand point? Or does this just apply to Siamese? Thanks again for assisting in my education.

 

[abymummy]

If I'm reading your question right Siamesohio, then here's my answer:

They were show cats of their time and are still (if still alive) are still Champions and Grands.

A large number of accepted cat breeds are updated regularly. Just go to the CFA website in the breed standards section and see how many standards have been revised or updated in the past few years.

Just look at how the Persian Standards have changed over the last 10 years!

The siamese cats, traditional and modern are just a prime example of how attitudes and really desires have changed in the look of the cat.

But the Siamese cats are altogether very very special...simply because of one thing. The Siamese Breeders in Thailand AND the special select group of Siamese breeders around the world REFUSE to let the traditionals die out. And for that, I salute them!

 

[goldenkitty45]

While some of them may have been show cats, from the pictures it looks like a lot are pets. I didn't read it all, so I'm probably wrong for some of them. My apologies

 

[black&tan]

Golden kitty I am sorry but you are poorly informed. These are indeed show cats. I did say HISTORIC, please pay attention to the years they were shown. If need be there is also a page that has the show standards of those times too.

The cats you are seeing in those photos are from the leading SHOW catteries of the years listed. They are the breeders that created the Siamese cat fancy in the USA. The founders of The Siamese Cat Society.

Titles listed are from published reports of the shows. I have many of the early stud books and club reports including early versions of CFA yearbooks and CFF registers.

 

[siameseohio]

Thank you Abymummy.

I suppose I did understand what I read initially on Black and Tan's site, and that my initial statement was correct about them being titled with the CFA. Again, that is nice to see, because you'd never know it, if you didn't know it.

And yes I've noticed how standards have changed with several other breeds. I've read several threads about it on this site in the past. I'm not at all versed in the world of showing but I think it is a good thing to appreciate the history of any breed (in the world of showing/whether the standard has changed or not). Especially if that initial look was revered in their very show ring in the past. I hope that makes sense.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Ok so I went back into the website - the pics I was looking at were the stars ones - not the pedigree ones. So I stand corrected - the stars ones ARE pets - not show.

A suggestion to your website page - try to find some of the Singa cats from the 40-70's - she had some from the 50's/60's there were very modern and sleek and excellant point color!

Singa cats (50's) I know were sleek and refined. I saw the pics and read the history of her cattery (Jean Singer) in one of the old CFA yearbooks. You want to see some breathtaking seal points (10 yrs old and pure white bodies) - those are out of Singa cats.

 

[denice]

I found two pictures of Grand Champions that she had bred on the internet. I guess I would consider them somewhere between the traditional and the very extreme cats that I have seen pictures of today. Even though they were black and white photos and didn't show a lot of their bodies I didn't see the darkening that seems to be so prevalent in seal points now. The article that I found said that at that time the emphasis was more color, now it is more on type. A cat with color flaws but good type would win now whereas at that time a cat with good color but type flaws would do better.

 

[siameseohio]

Originally Posted by Denice

I found two pictures of Grand Champions that she had bred on the internet. I guess I would consider them somewhere between the traditional and the very extreme cats that I have seen pictures of today. Even though they were black and white photos and didn't show a lot of their bodies I didn't see the darkening that seems to be so prevalent in seal points now. The article that I found said that at that time the emphasis was more color, now it is more on type. A cat with color flaws but good type would win now whereas at that time a cat with good color but type flaws would do better.

Denice, I'd really like to see those pictures. Could you tell me where they are? Thanks.

 

[black&tan]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

A suggestion to your website page - try to find some of the Singa cats from the 40-70's - she had some from the 50's/60's there were very modern and sleek and excellant point color!

Singa cats (50's) I know were sleek and refined. I saw the pics and read the history of her cattery (Jean Singer) in one of the old CFA yearbooks. You want to see some breathtaking seal points (10 yrs old and pure white bodies) - those are out of Singa cats.

I am familiar with Jeanne Singer. She bought her first registered Siamese in 1952. Her fist breeding cat was Astra's Margie born 10/14/1952. A Seal Point female listed in CFA Volume 79. She was sired by Dbl. Ch. Morris Lindex (pictured on my "post 1940's" page under ~1951~ Astra's Margie produced Singa Lindette (mentioned further below)


Thank you for your suggestion for my website. Going into the 70's is not in line with my site. Doing historical work is very, very time consuming and expensive. Maybe in the future if I purchase more server space and have more time. Right now I have a ton of stuff I am going through that is from the earlier years.

The CFA yearbook articles about cats of that time says alot to me:

SIAMESE STANDARD - A RETROSPECTIVE By Betty White "It all began with the birth of a watershed seal point male, a truly beautiful cat who was a quantum leap in type. I mean, of course, Fan-T-Cee’s Tee Cee. Too many breeders were of the mind that if a little Tee Cee was good, then a lot of Tee Cee had to be better. The skull became elongated, the wedge exceedingly narrow, and in the case of one CFA GC (Grand Champion) male that I saw, the cat did not (or could not) close his mouth."
~
Enter the era of the "head hunters" and with a vengeance, the first of the three phenomena to threaten the Siamese."

Jeanne Singer also has a 1979 yearbook article in which she says:

Siamese Breeding - The Long View
by Jeanne Singer:
"There was also at this time a genetic metabolic problem. Some show Siamese didn't "assimilate food properly and have poor muscle-tone with a "mushy" feel."

It was so bad that any Siamese with a soft feel was eliminated from showing by the judges. More from Siamese Breeding - The Long View by Jeanne Singer

" This genetic malady, born in America, has spread because some cats from the lines carrying it also have very long heads. Had this mutation struck a family of "apple-heads", it would have quickly died out long ago. Irresponsible breeders, although aware of its existence in a bloodline, will take a chance, hoping to get that one big show-stopper. Looking for one "super winner" at the expense of the other kittens.
~
Unfortunately, instead of sticking with healthy lines, some will cross these with the problem ones, thus committing a compound felony to perpetuate the weakness, which is sometimes masked by the healthy lines; and to contaminate the previously healthy strain for the future. For even seemingly healthy offspring can mask walking time bombs. It requires only one parent as a carrier to produce kittens with this disease.
~
All the recent hoopla and emphasis in the Siamese standard and Siamese judging about good muscle tone and hard bodies and the penalizing of mushy bodies is an attempt to eliminate this problem via the show ring.

Jeanne Singer also said the way she kept those nice white bodies was to breed back to her original clear coated cats.

Siamese Breeding - The Long View
by Jeanne Singer "The present Singa cats are all line-bred descendants from various combinations of these few original cats. For example, Singa Lindette appears up to 15 times in the extended pedigrees of many winning Singa cats today."

(edited)
Ack, I realized on the way to my daughters dance class that I made a silly mistake I had the 1979 publication date of the article in my head when I should have been thinking of the length of a breeding queens career. I would have to purchase a reverse pedigree to see all the offspring of Lindette and determine when she stopped being used for breeding. That would be very expensive, so I will use an average of 5 years. The veterinary recommended length.

I meant to say: Singa Lindette was born 5/30/1954. I'm not a geneticist or mathematician so I'm not going to calculate the coefficient to show the degree in inbreeding. Even a layperson can see in a 5 year breeding career 15 is a a high number. 15 divided by 5 is 3 times a breeding year, the "doubling" of Lindette's genes.


We breed companion animals. I choose my Old Style Siamese for how little "Show Siamese" is in their lines and I look for the least amount of inbreeding/line breeding possible. I breed outcrosses. The goal of my cattery is to do no harm and preserve these Old Style lines. Health, personality and then appearance. A flashy cat without the first two makes for a sad companion.

Sorry for the long post but Siamese are my passion.

Oh and this is one of the kittens I produced. She has a lovely white coat too. http://www.blackandtansiamese.com/im...s/progeny1.jpg
I have a "past kittens" and a "where are they now" page on my main site.

***Hiding soapbox in back of closet***

 

[goldenkitty45]

Very nice light seal point coat - one of the better ones. I wish the breeders would go back to getting better coat contrast, especially the seals - its so striking when you get seal color and an almost white coat.

I remember seeing some seals in the 80's (8-10 months old) with almost tonkinese color on the bodies - way too dark for that age!

 

[black&tan]

Thank you GoldenKitty. I know the dark coated cats you speak of. We have them in Old Style too. With so few old lines are out there one hates to pass on using an otherwise healthy line just because of the "look". The hope is to get a nice coated kitten from them to keep for breeding. My darkest coated seal boy is the one with a "to die for" personality. Siamese curious busy bee, talker (but not too much) and he can never get enough loving (lap boy). If you dare to walk past him without petting him he will fall at your feet to stop you. LOL

In the SIAMESE BREED COUNCIL LETTER July 9, 2002 there is a quote that says

The summer before she died, Jeanne Singer called me to continue a discussion that we had been having on the development of our written standard, and during the conversation she stated that she had always regretted the way the points were distributed between color and structure in the standard. She had realized within a couple of years of the implementation of the standard that she wrote in 1966, that she had erred in not placing additional points on color.

Type was the "IT" and color suffered.

 

[goldenkitty45]

That's a shame too. Perhaps enough breeders will swing the tide and slowly get back to color.

In fact, I was quite surprised at how much they've changed from 1980's till now! Kinda shocking.

I do still prefer the slendar look - just that its too slendar now.

 

[tiffanyjbt]

Great thread! LOVE all the beautiful pics of meezers!!! I love siamese cats. So classically beautiful, graceful, and of course quirky! LOL!

Heres a few pics of my 10 mos old baby Sir Duke. I got him from a BYB before I knew any better, so of course he's technically a moggie. He looks more of the old-style type though, definitely. I love this boy to pieces!!!

Oh, he's a seal point.

 

[yosemite]

He's gorgeous. I love meezers too of course.

 

[siamese4me]

Hi All. I just wanted to say that I was reading the posts about traditional siamese and modern siamese and how the breed standard in CFA has changed through the years. As a breeder of modern siamese, I try to breed according to the show standard as I enjoy the show scene and want to offer my kitten buyers a cat that they can take to the shows. However, I have much admiration for the traditional siamese. As far as kitten buyers go, I think it's a matter of preference, not necessarily that one style is better than the other. Pretty soon, (or so it seems) we'll see traditional siamese shown in their own division in TICA. We'll all get to see both modern and traditionals in the show rings.

 

[gayef]

Originally Posted by siamese4me

Pretty soon, (or so it seems) we'll see traditional siamese shown in their own division in TICA. We'll all get to see both modern and traditionals in the show rings.

Actually, if you do a little research on how they are going about doing this, I think you will be as appalled as I am about it. Let me know if you would like to discuss this further.

 

[tiffanyjbt]

Originally Posted by gayef

Actually, if you do a little research on how they are going about doing this, I think you will be as appalled as I am about it. Let me know if you would like to discuss this further.

I heard they wanted to call them Thai Cats instead of siamese. Is that true?

 

[siamese4me]

I also heard that they were going to call them Thai cats. But this is just what I've heard from other people, not directly from TICA.

 

[siameseohio]

Originally Posted by gayef

Actually, if you do a little research on how they are going about doing this, I think you will be as appalled as I am about it. Let me know if you would like to discuss this further.

Please share what you know. I'm courious. Thanks.