A New "Raw"some Beginning... (yup - another one LOL)

[Willowy]

Iams canned or Iams dry? It can be super difficult to get a kibble addict to recognize raw meat as food. If the cat eats a lot of canned the transition may be easier (although Carolina's Lucky went straight from kibble to raw because she didn't like canned!). There are a lot of tips in these threads on how to convince a kitty to eat raw, so just look around. If your wife is reluctant she may not be willing to put in the effort, though.

No matter what you do, remember that you CANNOT starve a cat into eating her food. If a cat goes too long without eating it can make her go into liver failure. So tricks are necessary for when they don't want to eat!

 

[arlo haarsma]

thank you for the advice about starving a cat into eating.  I never knew that before.  Good to know.  Apparently cats do not ahve the same glycogen stores we do.  Cher is on dry kibble btw.  We decided not to feed her wet food when we got her as she was used to dry kibble.

 

[Willowy]

Wet food is much healthier for kitties. Kibble is very dehydrating. Even if you can't get her to eat raw, try to get her to eat some wet food if you can.

It's not so much about the glycogen stores. . .they don't die of low blood sugar. It's because their livers attempt to metabolize stored fat for energy and the fat gums up the liver (scientific, I know ). It's called hepatic lipidosis if you want to look it up. The fatter a cat is, the less time they can go without eating without getting liver damage.

 

[arlo haarsma]

i am familiar with haptic lipidosis.  It is a rapidly growing field of study in humans now secondary to the explosion of obesity.  In humans it is studied in patients with NAFLD.  Funny how people and cats have interesting unique things in common and then other things we are vastly different on.  So you are a "Sciency" person?  That would be awesome because I know I am.  I love the concept of research and want to eventually research human hormones.

 

[ldg]

Arlo, what's her issue with raw food for the kitties? Just the idea of it? Fear of pathogens?

What kind of information for your argument will help? Getting her comfortable with what it means that cats are carnivores? Appealing to the long term health of kitty - because cats are obligate carnivores? Stuff that appeals to her intellect, or stuff that appeals to her sense of caring of what's best for Cher's long term health? Or would completely scaring her with what you're actually feeding a cat when you feed commercial pet food work better? (Make sure YOU want to know! I used to argue against raw feeding, because feral cats are not out there hunting chickens, turkeys, pigs, and cows! BUT when I started researching what goes into cat food, I started feeling an OVERWHELMING sense of guilt about what I was feeding my cats, and made the switch to raw. And the difference truly is amazing. And I was feeding them a high quality wet food diet).

This article uses citations when discussing the physiology of a cat's digestive system (which is designed to digest raw meat): http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and...ding-your-house-cat-whats-all-the-fuss-about/

Here's more info on what it means that cats are obligate carnivores:

http://rawfedcats.org/carnivores.htm
http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/your-cats-nutritional-needs-the-basics

This article addresses the fear of pathogens: http://catcentric.org/care-and-health/salmonella-e-coli-and-listeria-oh-my/

The bottom line is that cats simply aren't designed to eat anything other than meat, bones and organs. They lack amylase, the enzyme that begins the breakdown of carbohydrates in the saliva in our mouths.

As Dr. Pierson (http://www.catinfo.org) says,

Cats Need Animal-Based Protein

Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores and are very different from dogs in their nutritional needs. What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’? It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins.

It is very important to remember that not all proteins are created equal.

Proteins derived from animal tissues have a complete amino acid profile. (Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Think of them as pieces of a puzzle.) Plant-based proteins do not contain the full complement (puzzle pieces) of the critical amino acids required by an obligate carnivore. The quality and composition of a protein (are all of the puzzle pieces present?) is also referred to as its biological value.

Humans and dogs can take the pieces of the puzzle in the plant protein and, from those, make the missing pieces. Cats cannot do this. This is why humans and dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but cats cannot. (Note that I do not recommend vegetarian diets for dogs.)

Taurine is one of the most important amino acids that is present in meat but is missing from plants. Taurine deficiency will cause blindness and heart problems in cats.

That link provides a LONG discussion of diet and health issues.

Here is another diet-is-related-to-health article, written by a vet: http://feline-nutrition.org/health/a-vets-view-andrea-tasi-vmd

Cats cannot convert beta carotene into Vitamin A. Whenever you see carrots in a cat food, it is a filler. Whenever you see beta carotene in a food, it is for color.

Cats cannot utilize the plant-based omega 3 ALA (alpha-linolenic acid).

Cats cannot convert the essential fatty acid LA (linoleic acid) into the LC-polyunsaturated fatty acids (as dogs and humans can). LA must be provided in the diet in the form of meat. Cats lack the digestive enzyme necessary to synthesize AA (arachidonic acid) - it must be provided in the form of meat.

DHA is critical for cats, but they cannot synthesize it from LNA (the way people and dogs do) for the same reasons they cannot convert LA to LC-PUFAs.

(For discussion with references, scroll down to the section "PUFA for Pussy Cats." http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml).



And if you want to learn about what's in the food you feed your cat if you buy commercial canned or kibble food, here's a thread discussing it: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food

If I had to pick one resource from that thread discussing what's in the food we feed, it would be this one: http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html "Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade: Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes."

 

[feralvr]

It is affordable and great for them - oh, and for dogs too! Lauren has had wonderful success with her boy who was on bad shape before raw and is doing so much better now
Check it out!

YES YES YES!!!!!!!! IT IS TWUU!!!!! :heart3: The raw diet has saved my dogs life, I am certain of it. Along with some homeopathic rememdies from his Holistic Vet - My :heart3: dog, Wilbur, has had a complete turnaround since last Fall. I NEVER thought he would be alive and well into the year 1012. It truly is a miracle.

For my cats - well - the benefits just go on and on.

 

[feralvr]

This is the first I ahve heard regarding raw food...wow...so it not only works but is beneficial?  I need to research some more I guess.

HELLO Arlo!!! Another Welcome to TCS!!! So glad you found us and all of us are really enjoying your humorous way with words. Happy to have you on the Forums. I see you have already been receiving great, great advice from other's. Can't say enough great things about raw feeding. I was VERY skittish at first too, it just takes some getting used to the idea at first and you just have to know how to sanitize - it is very, very simple. And since you only have one kitty, Cher, I think it will be a walk in the park for you to transition her. It gets much more complicated the more cats you have. It can be done though. Many of us here are doing it with multiple cats. It just gets easier with time and practice, once you get a routine down.

OH we like to have fun here and joke around. :rofl: SO hope you hang around and bring on some laughs for us :wait: :lol3:

 

[feralvr]

i am familiar with haptic lipidosis.  It is a rapidly growing field of study in humans now secondary to the explosion of obesity.  In humans it is studied in patients with NAFLD.  Funny how people and cats have interesting unique things in common and then other things we are vastly different on.  So you are a "Sciency" person?  That would be awesome because I know I am.  I love the concept of research and want to eventually research human hormones.

OH BOY!!!! YES - Laurie is our on the site (don't want to embarrass you, Laurie :sun: ) but it is TWUU!!!!! You two will get along quite famously then

 

[feralvr]

SOOOOOOO The HT chicken is not a favorite of the Pipster :dk: I have tried twice with him. He does lick at it and take a few nibbles but then walks away asking for something else. Another option, PLEASE, he says Meaning, another chicken or turkey option, please, momma :lovegrin: ....... I am surprised because he likes the HT quail. :dk: Will try again in the morning with the HT chicken and have the RC turkey as my back up. His favorite all time is the RC turkey or chicken. Gosh, I just might have to break down and buy some of that Fegnion Rabbit afterall. Pipsqueak wants to run the bank :dollars: dry....... :slant: I really want to have more options to feed the Pipster other than RC, NV, NM chicken/turkey.

Perkins, Presley, Walden and Wendall liked the chicken. Perla not so much. She flicked her tongue AGAIN and splattered it all over the walls OH SO dramatic, that one.

Next up in a day or so will be the HT turkey. BUT BOY OH BOY - Duck Hearts OMG they ALL love them, even Pipsqueak accidentally ate a very, tiny, minuscule piece mixed in with some canned last night. I plan on picking up some more Organic chicken breast today. I have run out and need to keep that in the rotation. OH reminds me, I need to get Wysong's Call of the Wild supplement. I am going to try to add in some more fresh raw meats I am pretty excited about it. I know for sure that Walden, Wendall and Perkins are ready for boneless FP and it will be a nice addition to the weekly menus. It does take me more time with my cats, the meals, only because everyone seems to be eating something different. Sure wish I could have that simplified somehow. My crew just won't oblige my requests. :nothappy:

 

[ldg]

Oh Perla! I'm sorry, Lauren, but the image conjured up with rincess: Perla flicking food on the wall just cracks me up! :anon:

INTERESTING on Pip not liking the HT chicken. They're so fresh, I wonder what the issue is. :scratch: Actually, one thing just popped to mind. The HT meats are ground whole animals. :nod: Maybe it's the mix of organs in there? :dk:

Well, I really hope he at least likes the turkey! :cross:

 

[arlo haarsma]

I am still deciphering you post LDG...lots of questions there.  I think our biggest hurdle for my wife to overcome is that she almost lost our Shih-tzu to bladder crystals, and the operating doctor told her in order to maintain the health of the animal it hust adhere to an expensive script diet.  She transfers that info over to the cat and thinks in her head the script food is best but too costly, regular pet food is second best.  But under no circumstances is people food ever appripriate - in any shape or form.  The operation on Sashi cast nearly 3k I do believe so I am sure she is interested in avoiding that again.  If not that then I think she does what so many people do with their pets....think the pet is actually another human.  People fail to set boundaries with their dog because they are concerned they will hurt puppy's feelings and things of that nature, they put crazy sweaters on pets because they assume the pet is cold or warm when pets actually have supremely complex systems for maintaining body temp.   Well along those lines raw meat is dangerous...because it is dangerous for humans.  "Cats need a sweater in the snow like me and they need to be protected from salmonella as well just like me".  Because she knows the veterinarian as a doctor and not as a friend I think she see the vet as an infallible pillar of medical prowess whereas it is cute that I have studied medicine for nearly 8 years now but nothing else...just cute.  If I were to approach her with medical facts she would be hesitant to believe me because the vet says something different.  I will try to formulate an argument based on emotion and parallel facts such as big cats being obligate carnivores.  Thank you sooooo much for the articles and links.  I have started a new folder.

 

[ldg]

Ah, yes, crystals. :nod: Then you will definitely want to read the information at http://www.catinfo.org. The best way to avoid similar problems in cats (and dogs, in fact) is by feeding them species-appropriate diets. Meat, bones, and organs when properly balanced with calcium (in bones or supplemented), and phosphorus actually create the proper pH in the bladder, which avoids the problem of crystals. Feeding moist food (raw food) provides a lot of moisture in the diet, and keeping urine dilute also helps avoid the problems created by concentrated urine. :nod:

I think your best bet is going to be information FROM vets discussing the problem with the traditional approach to diet by MOST vets. Vets actually receive very little in the way of nutritional training at school, and the information they impart to us is information usually provided BY the pet food companies - which, I'm sure your wife would understand, is biased by their interest in profit-margins, not our pets' health.


http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedaily...ish_pet_owners_understood_better#.T8ub0ZJh6LY

Your Pet May Survive, but Won’t Thrive on a Diet of Processed Foods

Why do dog and cat owners consider the most ideal food to be dry or canned pet food? Nature makes food, then humans highly process nature’s ingredients to create a "nutritionally complete and balanced" option conveniently available to pour out of a bag or can.

Unfortunately for our animal companions, there are serious short- and long-term health consequences associated with eating grain and protein meals, by-products, artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, and the recognized toxins and carcinogens found in many commercially available pet foods and treats. Diseases of the gastrointestinal (stomach, small and large intestine), dermatologic (skin), and metabolic (kidneys, liver, pancreas, etc.) systems, and immune system abnormalities (including cancer), can be correlated to these unnecessary food ingredients (see Are You Poisoning Your Companion Animal by Feeding Pet Grade Foods?).

When food substances are so radically altered from nature’s original format, energetic changes occur that reduce foods’ nutritive content. Human grade, whole food based, home prepared, or commercial diets having undergone minimal refinement should replace processed dry or canned pet foods.

Most pet foods cater to owner convenience instead of promoting a pet’s best health. Dogs and cats can survive, but will not thrive by eating pet-grade foods.

By the same vet: Are you Poisoning your companion animal with Pet Grade foods? http://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedaily...nion_animal_with_pet_grade_foods#.T8ucU5Jh6LY



From one of the links above: http://feline-nutrition.org/health/a-vets-view-andrea-tasi-vmd

Why Do So Many Veterinarians Caution Against Raw Diets?

Veterinarians actually receive very little training in nutrition. In my 4 years of veterinary school, I had one class, one semester long, on nutrition. Most of this course focused on which prescription diet to recommend for which disease and why. For well pets, I was taught to recommend "Pick one dry food and stick with it." A major pet food manufacturer supplied free pet food to veterinary students, and free prescription diets to the University's veterinary hospital for use with hospitalized animals. Is it any wonder that most vets come out of school recommending that manufacturer's products? We were cautioned that it was "complicated" and "risky" for owners to make their own pet food, and that raw meat was full of harmful bacteria and parasites and would sicken animals, and possibly their owners. As I began to become interested in raw foods and spoke with veterinarians who had been recommending them for years, I was happily surprised to find that raw-food related health problems were few and far between, but that the benefits were amazing!

 

[ldg]

And ask away, that's what we're here for.

 

[feralvr]

Oh Perla! I'm sorry, Lauren, but the image conjured up with rincess: Perla flicking food on the wall just cracks me up! :anon:
INTERESTING on Pip not liking the HT chicken. They're so fresh, I wonder what the issue is. :scratch: Actually, one thing just popped to mind. The HT meats are ground whole animals. :nod: Maybe it's the mix of organs in there? :dk:
Well, I really hope he at least likes the turkey! :cross:

YOu know, I thought the same thing, BUT I think NM is also the whole ground up chicken with organs, because I can see the slimy little suckers in the NM chicken and turkey Will try again with Pip - he is refusing even canned today, so maybe he is not feeling well :dk: He did eat the NVO chicken though. That is his all-time FAV :bigthumb:

AND yeah on the rincess: She really does make me laugh and sometimes cry I love her dearly - she makes life so much fun :lovegrin:

 

[feralvr]

I am still deciphering you post LDG...lots of questions there.  I think our biggest hurdle for my wife to overcome is that she almost lost our Shih-tzu to bladder crystals, and the operating doctor told her in order to maintain the health of the animal it hust adhere to an expensive script diet.  She transfers that info over to the cat and thinks in her head the script food is best but too costly, regular pet food is second best.  But under no circumstances is people food ever appripriate - in any shape or form.  The operation on Sashi cast nearly 3k I do believe so I am sure she is interested in avoiding that again.  If not that then I think she does what so many people do with their pets....think the pet is actually another human.  People fail to set boundaries with their dog because they are concerned they will hurt puppy's feelings and things of that nature, they put crazy sweaters on pets because they assume the pet is cold or warm when pets actually have supremely complex systems for maintaining body temp.   Well along those lines raw meat is dangerous...because it is dangerous for humans.  "Cats need a sweater in the snow like me and they need to be protected from salmonella as well just like me".  Because she knows the veterinarian as a doctor and not as a friend I think she see the vet as an infallible pillar of medical prowess whereas it is cute that I have studied medicine for nearly 8 years now but nothing else...just cute.  If I were to approach her with medical facts she would be hesitant to believe me because the vet says something different.  I will try to formulate an argument based on emotion and parallel facts such as big cats being obligate carnivores.  Thank you sooooo much for the articles and links.  I have started a new folder.

I do understand your wife's fears over Sasha. I can tell you that my SIL has three Havanese and one of then had chronic crystal issues with her bladder. Unfortunately, most vets know absolutely nothing about pet nutrition. They are also in the money-making business with Hill's and will back their product all in the name of lining their pockets. Anyway, my SIL finally realized this and went to a Holistic vet for a nutritional overhaul to save her dog. He put all of her dogs on a raw diet - she uses commercially made raw - and her dog with the bladder problems is completely cured. She lives in Indianapolis and I will be seeing her this next weekend. Will get some info. from her. She LOVES to talk about dog nutrition. We have a lot in common on that front. :nod:

GREAT POSTS, Laurie :sun: as usual So very helpful

 

[ldg]

YOu know, I thought the same thing, BUT I think NM is also the whole ground up chicken with organs, because I can see the slimy little suckers in the NM chicken and turkey Will try again with Pip - he is refusing even canned today, so maybe he is not feeling well :dk: He did eat the NVO chicken though. That is his all-time FAV :bigthumb:
AND yeah on the rincess: She really does make me laugh and sometimes cry I love her dearly - she makes life so much fun :lovegrin:

I had to go look it up, because I couldn't remember. :lol3: NM isn't whole ground animals. It does include liver and heart - and the non-organic one has gizzards. So maybe he doesn't like the rest of the chicken. :dk:

 

[feralvr]

I had to go look it up, because I couldn't remember. :lol3: NM isn't whole ground animals. It does include liver and heart - and the non-organic one has gizzards. So maybe he doesn't like the rest of the chicken. :dk:

Thanks and :lol3: I looked it up too. I thought for sure it was whole ground chicken. So I tried again this morning with the HT chicken..... no go for Pip. Tomorrow morning is the HT Turkey trial Pipsqueak, like Flowerbelle, :lol3: gets on the counter in the morning while I prepare meat and that has made it so easy to feed Pip his raw meal with all of his supplements. Now he demands his breakfast this way each morning Hey, whatever it takes to get the raw in them I will do. These cat's have turned me into a Raw Trickster and/or a Raw Temptress. They each have their own way of making deals with me. It is actually pretty hilarious over here, but a win-win for me and my six little stinkers. I do the tricks and they pay the piper :rofl: It works :scratch: but I am doing most of the work and all they have to do......... IS EAT!!!!!! . :eyebrows:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I think I've finally learned the trick over here to get Callie to eat.  I need to feed her last.  I swear...she is as slow as molasses when she eats.  The boys had gone thru at least 2 oz each, and I squished their food to the bottom of their dishes to try to slow them down, and she was still licking at just .4 oz when they went zooming past her and caused her to stop eating, so I though "enough of this nonsense", and just decided I would wait until they were all settled down THEN try to feed her.  It worked (last night and this morning anyway ...AND with the help of some Fortiflora).  And I managed to get about 1 full oz in her!! 

Obviously it's even more time consuming now than before, but that's ok as long as she'll eat

. 

The things we do for our furkids

 

[ldg]

The art of kitty negotiations! Truly, an art of feline psychology!

 

[feralvr]

The art of kitty negotiations! Truly, an art of feline psychology!

Yeah, and I think I have the A+ Gifted students at my house. THEY all took the course "The Art of Manipulating your Momma"