A 2015 study on dry food vs wet food on dental health

[MissClouseau]

Outdated, small sample sizes, no solid evidence nor proof of other facts regarding the cats in question such as health issues, home life / environment, food brand, or owner's care for their dental hygiene [brushing] .......................eh..?

Biased comparison; you excluded dry food. IN no way is eating crunchy cereal similar to feasting on a freshly killed rabbit in any shape or form either......... Explain which prey exactly in the wild is made up of primarily dry; hard, crunchy bits and pieces with little to no water content.

And so does the meat they consume in the wild. Blood; veins, chunks bits and pieces of their prey is "messy" in the mouth. I fail to see your point. Raw or home cooked is the most similar we can get to feeding them a natural diet and crunchy kibble is the furthest, simply from a mere logical observation.

Perhaps cats aren't designed to have squeaky clean teeth to last them 24 years. Perhaps they're not even designed for anything other than hunt; catch; kill; eat, breed like the majority of animals on this planet, and aren't built to last 30 years. We ought to look at these species we speak of from a biological stance and remove the bias.

You can find tens of thousands of different studies that say wildly different things to all contradict each other, so remaining reliant on them is futile and quite imperative.
Anyone can preform a "study" and publish an article about it. I could take the users of this forum, ask them a routine of questions, and publish an article applying their answers to the entire community of animal owners as a whole; worldwide; and anyone seeking whatever conclusion that came to, would then be led to use that study as a basis of their biased opinion, just because it supports their narrative and looks pretty legit. However, I'll supply a few as well that I find pretty legit so as to avoid looking like I'm just sharing ideas.

Full raw prey is on the market as well, you can easily find whole rabbit; quail; chicken; rats, etc with full fur/wings and bones. So replicating the ..

..Process you hypothesized is actually fully possible and not some sort of "out there" idea. How exactly would kibble replicate this process, by the way? Last time I checked, kibble doesn't have flesh to tear into; bones to crunch; or hair to er.. Floss with.

Genrally healthy cats don't. Cats are desert evolved animals who take moisture from their prey, and with an adequate wet diet, they probably won't even blink at the water bowl and cats fed dry are being put through unnecessary risk and dare I say neglect, given the owner is aware of actual facts regarding feline nutrition.

"Cats must have water in their food. A mouse is about 65 to 75% moisture.²

Cats evolved getting most of their fluid intake from the foods they ate. They don't drink a lot of water and don't have the thirst drive that dogs or humans have. As creatures that evolved in the desert, they naturally concentrate their urine. A cat getting only dry foods will drink water, but will have a hard time making up for the lack of moisture in the food, leading to even more concentrated urine. This can promote feline lower urinary tract disease.³

Cats should be fed a diet with a moisture content that is close to what their natural prey diet would be: around 65 to 80 percent moisture. A raw cat food or a canned diet both are in this range. For more information on this, see "Answers: What Dry Food Does to Your Cat's Pee." [source]​

Oh, and I'll leave this here.

Big cats and domestic cats share the same body form and the same dental structure and shape. They all have big canines designed to rip and tear a carcass, and upper and lower molars and premolars that close perfectly like scissor blades, designed to shatter bones and slice flesh. When eating raw meat and bones, the act itself of chewing and gnawing serves as a polisher of the surface of the teeth, preventing the buildup of plaque and tartar. This is the equivalent of humans brushing and flossing our teeth. This happens every day with each meal, which means felines consuming raw meaty bones get a daily dental cleaning and brushing.

Unfortunately, the opposite occurs when we feed our cats commercial dry food. The shape of the Coarsely ground grain in the form of pellets, as for pet food, produced by extrusion and baking.
kibble is generally small in size which makes it difficult for a cat to chew, so they generally swallow the whole pellet as presented. This has zero polishing effect on the surface of the teeth. Moreover, when in contact with the saliva, the high content of An organic substance composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen; mainly from plant origin. The most important carbohydrates are starches, sugars, celluloses and gums. carbohydrates, or Any of a class of carbohydrates, such as starch and cellulose, consisting of a number of monosaccharides joined by glycosidic bonds. polysaccharides, in the pellet is released and adheres to the surface of the teeth, causing the first stage in the formation of tartar and periodontal disease, dental plaque.¹

Once this plaque has set in, stage two begins, the buildup of tartar, also called calculus. From here onwards, we can find different levels of periodontal disease. This gradation exceeds the aim of this article, but the important thing for owners to remember is that the calculus on the tooth carries millions of bacteria which reproduce at a high rate. The byproduct of this is stinky breath, ingestion of toxins, drooling, sore and bleeding gums, loose teeth, tooth loss and destruction of the jaw bone. The damage can reach different and vital organs such as kidneys, lungs, heart and liver as the bacteria spreads beyond the mouth. In the worst case, this can be life threatening. Your cat's oral health needs to be taken very seriously. [source]​

...Furthermore.... [1] and [2]

I linked around a dozen of published studies, you show Lisa Pierson’s website. She is one person. It makes zero sense to say something is outdated, biased and all and then show one person as evidence?

I didn’t exclude dry food. I’m not even saying any diet is better than the other in general. This is just about oral health and some studies on that. You can of course not believe a study but unless you can show more reliable studies for a counter argument, that’s also nothing but personal opinion. (I myself don’t have a super strong one yet. That’s also why I’m reading studies, listening to other cat people here, etc.)

Full raw prey is on the market as well, you can easily find whole rabbit; quail; chicken; rats, etc with full fur/wings and bones

no I can’t actually. I also can’t find vitamin supplements the raw diet makers commonly use to add to the food as they are not available in my country and many other countries. Or chicken goblets (oddly enough apparently there are a few restaurants that serve them cooked.) Just as a side note :-) A raw diet is nearly impossible or straight up impossible for many.

 

[MissClouseau]

P.S. I’m a chronic overthinker and anxious about health. Whatever diet a cat is on - raw, wet, dry, if they don’t show any symptoms of a dental problem and vet confirms that too, then it’s cool. Genes play a factor too I have a friend who often skips brushing her own teeth and she has the best teeth ever. Go figure.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I kind of avoided this thread for...so many reasons. But, here I am anyway to say this: genetics likely play the biggest role in whether or not a cat has dental issues. Of my (only) 3 cats, none have/had dental issues - with Feeby at 15+yo only just recently did the vet say she is showing some slight signs of gingivitis, and at her age he said he is not worried about it. Of these cats, they were all primarily on dry food. Feeby has only in the past 2-3 years had canned food added to her diet.

I guess what I am saying - to each his/her own. This debate will go on long after we and our cats have long been 'gone'. Whatever works for you and your cat(s) is the 'right' thing.

 

[molly92]

I love a study! I'll point out a couple things that might get overlooked:

All cats in this study had oral home care.

Meaning they were doing something besides the diet, like teeth brushing or oral treats I assume, but it doesn't say more about that so who knows who is doing what.

Also they pooled the results, averaged them, and organized by category, so there's no way of looking at what an individual cat's teeth were because they didn't provide raw data.

As a limitation in this study, we must refer that several other factors may eventually play an important role in cats’ oral hygiene. For example, Kornya et al. [17] have recently established a relationship between the deterioration of cats’ oral health and the positive testing for retroviruses (feline leukaemia virus and feline immunodeficiency virus), and cats in this study were not tested for retroviruses. In addition, homemade diet nutritional details may vary substantially (nutritional deficiencies, feeding of bones, etc.), which may impact on results.

They did say that all the cats were healthy, so presumably there was no active viral infections, but they did not check for FIV/FeLV status.

Also it's interesting that they acknowledge a lot of articles that didn't all agree, even with them, about wet food or about their other finding, that age is not related to oral health.

All this does not mean the study came to the wrong conclusion, but that, like most observational studies, we can't really say much about it.

Personally I'd LOVE a study where they controlled for the content of the food (carb/protein/fat) and just added moisture or baked it. Also there are just way too many variables to control when you're using cats already on a diet and regime picked out by individual owners.

 

[SpecterOhPossum]

I linked around a dozen of published studies, you show Lisa Pierson’s website. She is one person. It makes zero sense to say something is outdated, biased and all and then show one person as evidence?

Two, actually. I had made a statement regarding studies and articles prior that should supply enough glaring reason as to why I didn't give you fifty.
"You can find tens of thousands of different studies that say wildly different things to all contradict each other, so remaining reliant on them is futile and quite imperative.
Anyone can preform a "study" and publish an article about it. I could take the users of this forum, ask them a routine of questions, and publish an article applying their answers to the entire community of animal owners as a whole; worldwide; and anyone seeking whatever conclusion that came to, would then be led to use that study as a basis of their biased opinion, just because it supports their narrative and looks pretty legit. However, I'll supply a few as well that I find pretty legit so as to avoid looking like I'm just sharing ideas."

I didn’t exclude dry food. I’m not even saying any diet is better than the other in general. This is just about oral health and some studies on that.)

That was a direct response to the quote I replied to, not your entire post. Hence quoting this part before that quote specifically:

but I feel like unlike homemade raw or wet food diet of any kind,

Or else I would have quoted your entire thread.

but unless you can show more reliable studies for a counter argument, that’s also nothing but personal opinion..)

Or logical solution constructed by observing animals in their natural habitats, untamed and unkept; and seeing them for anything other than their status as pets.
Multiple studies saying the same thing aren't going to prove anything. Quantity =/= reliability. Again, I can pull you up fifty articles and studies on something untrue - like "veganism is bad for you!" because anyone can post these things online; and there is an abundance of them to support any biased (obviously not saying you're biased.) narrative anyone wants to support. Saying that baked bits of crunchy kibble is better on teeth or more natural than raw meat they're designed to feast on is opinion. Observe felines in the wild, how often do you observe wild cats eating something of that nature? How do they go about eating? That's more reliable than any of these posts. Observe the animal's habits for yourself, in it's natural state. No bias, no opinions. No ideas on how they do it, look at it for yourself.
The issue is that these studies aren't taking a biological or evolutionary approach, it's common knowledge by now that felines evolved to hunt catch and kill prey; and take in their water from this act. If this means sacrificing their ability to "naturally" clean their teeth with hard crunchy; baked, tiny pieces of low quality; low water content kibble, I'm alright with that. Daily brushing & C.E.T exists.

Moreover, how many wild cats do you see with perfect pearly teeth? How many dogs do you see with pearly teeth? How many humans in tribes do you see with pearly teeth? Nature isn't designed to output perfect; stellar; shiny; and pretty specimens - easily observable from the wild caught animals trade; and again, observing animals in the wild. Alternatively, there are quite an abundance of documentaries showing how these animals exist in the wild as well. Granted most wild cats - given young age - do have nice teeth and good looks; this isn't exactly of upmost importance to this animal or solely what they're designed for.
The point of animals is to survive, repopulate and die. Not to be pretty, not to be in tip top condition and to live to 23. Nature is cruel. Hence why indoor animals typically are in an unnatural tip-top condition, with pearly teeth provided by dentals and brushing; no scars; etc. Kept in nice clean houses with meals daily, water daily, none of this is natural and nature does not provide such delicate care..
Hence animals existing within it; display these imperfections.

In saying this, providing this unnatural care to your cats teeth will usually generate good results. Healthy teeth, regardless of what they're eating. I've known people to feed crappy low quality purina who's cat's teeth were perfectly fine, because they had routine dental care by professionals or at home and the money to support that lifestyle. And people who couldn't afford it, feeding the same food, with cats who had bad teeth, and some lucky ones who had good teeth. Whole prey is the most natural food you can feed your cat - especially say, if you hunted it yourself, kibble is the furthest. Regardless, there is more to dental health than diet. Age plays a part, you play a part, the vet can play a part, genes can play a part.. It's dependent on the animal, and considering everyone and everything has a different narrative on cats; It's best - in my opinion - to care for the teeth yourself and provide professional dentals if you can afford them, and feed an as-close-to natural diet as possible; paired with forming your opinions based on felines in the wild and how they actually survive naturally - not referring to street cats.

 

[MissClouseau]

forming your opinions based on felines in the wild and how they actually survive naturally - not referring to street cats.

Observe felines in the wild, how often do you observe wild cats eating something of that nature? How do they go about eating? That's more reliable than any of these posts.

Which feline? There are some important differences between different felines, some of which are biological. And also that felines in the wild or humans for that matter don't do everything the best way but they use whatever resource is available to them within their knowledge and intelligence capability. Forming an opinion solely based on what an animal does in the wild can get dangerously misleading. More so if it's a relative species and not the one we have at home.

I can pull you up fifty articles and studies on something untrue - like "veganism is bad for you!" because anyone can post these things online; and there is an abundance of them to support any biased (obviously not saying you're biased.)

Anyone can't post on medical journals which is what the studies I shared are from. Of course I acknowledge just because there is a scientific study doesn't mean its conclusion became a theory. It's still a hypothesis and makes sense to stay skeptical. But I consider that more being biased to shut down them especially considering there is nuance about health. (Right on that, veganism really is bad for some humans. But the best for some other humans.)

I love reading studies and talking about them but in this particular case, my Hima has dental issues that will get worse over time but operation is too risky. That's really mostly why I'm reading these studies and I share when I find something interesting.

Thank you all for sharing your opinion.