A 2015 study on dry food vs wet food on dental health

[MissClouseau]

Obviously oral health is only one part of health and for overall health the debate is on. And dry food has some bad effects for dental health as mentioned in the same study. Not to encourage or discourage any diet but...

I finally made Hima eat mostly wet food. She eats wet throughout the day and only eats dry at night. Recently I noticed she had wet food bits on her gum line, closer to the outside of her mouth. At least one hour AFTER she was done with breakfast. I'm not sure if it's because she fails to clean it and it's more of a problem with her than generally about cats but it supports the idea it's not that dry food cleans the teeth necessarily but wet food is riskier/more effort consuming for dental care by staying right on the teeth and gum for a longer time, and presumably by going higher up to the gums. And maybe with their acidity level.

Then I read some more recent studies and found this 2015 one: The Choice of Diet Affects the Oral Health of the Domestic Cat

Conclusions:

Cheek teeth (molars and premolars) are more susceptible to poor oral health than other teeth, independent of the age of the cat. It is important to prevent oral health deterioration from an early age with special attention paid to the cheek teeth. The diet of a cat needs to be considered holistically, paying particular attention to its nutritional value, but the texture of the food is shown to play an important role in oral health, with wet canned food providing the least benefit to oral health.

I thought you guys would like to see too if you haven't already. (A side note I will not change Hima's diet. She's awful at drinking water and kidney damage is worse than dental issues. But I will probably go back to giving her dental treats or a few kibbles after wet food if she doesn't play with her dental toys.)

 

[Antonio65]

But I will probably go back to giving her dental treats or a few kibbles after wet food if she doesn't play with her dental toys.)

I'm curious to know what is a dental toy for a cat. I know them for dogs, never heard of toys for cats' teeth.

How can you have a cat chew on a toy?

 

[MissClouseau]

I'm curious to know what is a dental toy for a cat. I know them for dogs, never heard of toys for cats' teeth.

How can you have a cat chew on a toy?

They do the same dog dental toys too. It provides a bit flossing effect with their material and design. I have most of them from this brand PetStages


I usually get Hima bite while playing cat version of fetch. I throw it, she catches and bites. We do it several times in a row at least so it's like biting. Sometimes I also put her liver-flavored tooth gel on it.

The best one though is actually my fabric bra bag. Hima likes to wrestle with it sometimes and doesn't bite anything as much as she bites that. I think it gets her attention because it's around her own size, it's soft so are the things inside (bras), and they move. It feels more like a prey I think. 10/10 I would recommend. Not the one I have but it's similar...

 

[Antonio65]

They do the same dog dental toys too. It provides a bit flossing effect with their material and design. I have most of them from this brand PetStages

I had a look on the web and found several chewable toys (fish-like things, sticks, balls, etc) but most of the reviews were negative, their cats didn't find them attractive at all.

 

[lisahe]

Our cats have some of the Petstages dental toys... they're nice toys and the cats like chasing them and playing with them but they never chew them!

 

[Azazel]

This was one of the main reasons I switched my cats to homemade raw way back. I had been considering it but one of my cats had really bad gingivitis and I felt that the gums in the wet food were contributing to it, so it pushed me to make the plunge to homemade since I for sure didn’t want to go back to kibble.

 

[MissClouseau]

This was one of the main reasons I switched my cats to homemade raw way back. I had been considering it but one of my cats had really bad gingivitis and I felt that the gums in the wet food were contributing to it, so it pushed me to make the plunge to homemade since I for sure didn’t want to go back to kibble.

Could you take a look at their chart in the link? Homemade food also scored lower than dry, as homemade is also wet food.

There is no data that I found on dental health in the wild cats but I feel like unlike homemade raw or wet food diet of any kind, I think they "brush" their own teeth while eating their prey both with the bones and the fur of the prey.

Also I recently read in another article, some cats are prone to get gingivitis and to produce bad bacteria and even full mouth teeth extraction doesn't always fix the gum problems. It sucks. And it happens to humans too, I know from myself

 

[Azazel]

Could you take a look at their chart in the link? Homemade food also scored lower than dry, as homemade is also wet food.

There is no data that I found on dental health in the wild cats but I feel like unlike homemade raw or wet food diet of any kind, I think they "brush" their own teeth while eating their prey both with the bones and the fur of the prey.

Also I recently read in another article, some cats are prone to get gingivitis and to produce bad bacteria and even full mouth teeth extraction doesn't always fix the gum problems. It sucks. And it happens to humans too, I know from myself

A few problems I see with this study...

The sample size is 41, which is already tiny enough, but I don't' see anywhere where they report how many cats were actually on a 'homemade' diet, nor do they define what 'homemade' means. Homemade can mean cooked - they do not specify raw, or how the food was made or served. It can vary drastically. To that same point - they make no specifications about the type of wet foods being fed or what the ingredients were. Surely the texture and ingredients would matter.

It is quite fishy to me that they don't mention how many 'homemade' cats were in the small sample of 41, especially since no parameter was estimated for the homemade group in Table 1 - and the lack of standard error indicates that they couldn't estimate a parameter, likely because the 'homemade' group was too small.

They are also quite vague about the cats all being "healthy animals" - given that we have no information about their history of oral disease, the 'health' information they present regarding spaying, de-worming, etc. is not very helpful. A cat could already have had oral problems and showed no signs of distress before being switched to wet food. They also make a general statement that all cats had 'home oral care' without specifying what is meant by that and whether there were differences in the home oral care regimens.

They also only had one vet surgeon examine the teeth - no establishment of inter-rater reliability or mention of whether the vet examining the teeth was aware of the cat's diet.

And probably the biggest glaring problem - they are using causal language such as 'choice of diet affects oral health' when they have not justified any causal claims with their analyses.

I would be quite surprised if raw meat contributed to dental disease more than kibble. Raw meat contains the same natural enzymes that they put into cat toothpaste to clean teeth. Cats also tear raw meat and flesh to clean teeth in the wild. I have also observed cleaner teeth in my cats who are fed a raw diet.

 

[MissClouseau]

The sample size is 41, which is already tiny enough, but I don't' see anywhere where they report how many cats were actually on a 'homemade' diet, nor do they define what 'homemade' means. Homemade can mean cooked - they do not specify raw, or how the food was made or served. It can vary drastically. To that same point - they make no specifications about the type of wet foods being fed or what the ingredients were. Surely the texture and ingredients would matter.

You are right 41 is a small number but you know not like studies on cats' health have large participants. This is usually what we get. You are also right there has to be some difference between any wet food (homemade or not) with its ingredients if with nothing else with the acidity level. But I think the point stands that wet food gets messier in the mouth and this study is more about gum/cheek health on oral care than teeth themselves. It makes sense to me anything more liquid would be more damaging because it goes to more places in the mouth.

Cats also tear raw meat and flesh to clean teeth in the wild. I have also observed cleaner teeth in my cats who are fed a raw diet.

That might also be true with the raw diet you serve, maybe different for some others with how they do raw I wouldn't know... but more importantly, this study is more about gum/cheek health of oral health than teeth themselves. My Hima has pretty clean teeth when you look but she still has gingivitis. It might be genes and not the food of course.

Btw I found this Reddit post I have saved about older studies on dental health

 

[Azazel]

You are right 41 is a small number but you know not like studies on cats' health have large participants. This is usually what we get. You are also right there has to be some difference between any wet food (homemade or not) with its ingredients if with nothing else with the acidity level. But I think the point stands that wet food gets messier in the mouth and this study is more about gum/cheek health on oral care than teeth themselves. It makes sense to me anything more liquid would be more damaging because it goes to more places in the mouth.

I honestly don't think any of these claims can be warranted from this study. Just because other studies also have small sample sizes doesn't make the issue of a small sample go away. This coupled with all of the other issues I listed above makes me take this with a large grain of salt. I don't think that canned food is particularly good for oral health, but the claim about 'homemade' food - whatever that refers to - is completely unjustified and irresponsible in this paper when they didn't even estimate a parameter for it. Not to mention the irresponsible causal claims being made based on correlational analyses. These types of irresponsible claims I have found to be prevalent in many many studies on feline nutrition.

Part of the problem here is that the general public doesn't know how to read a research paper and so they find a bunch of links to papers, read the abstract or the conclusion and interpret it at face value. I have not read all of the papers you linked to above and don't have time to do that right now, but I always read something in its entirety before I draw any conclusions from it. You'd be amazed by the amount of bad science out here.

To be quite honest - even if we knew for a fact that kibble would keep teeth shiny and clean, I still wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. The poor ingredients and lack of moisture are enough for me to believe that it should be banned from a cat's diet.

 

[Willow's Mom]

That's why I give my new kitten raw, meaty bones. When she was too little for bones, I would give her a chicken gizzard to chew on. They aren't very expensive. You could just give your kitties a gizzard or a neck once or twice a week for their teeth and wet (or ground raw) food the rest of the time.

 

[kittyluv387]

Dental problems call for dental solutions! No need to downgrade a cat's diet. Stay away from water additives too. Water should be fresh and cats will know the difference. They don't drink enough in the first place. Stick to teeth brushing, applying gels / paste onto their teeth with fingers, mouthwash and DENTALS. Most people just do not include periodic dentals into their cat budget and that's really the issue. Yes it's expensive but most people can put away $20/month and take their cat every 2 years or whatever.

 

[MissClouseau]

Stay away from water additives too. Water should be fresh and cats will know the difference.

no need to stay away totally. The vets here always recommend having more than 1-2 water sources available. Only one of them can have an additive. I actually add to one of the waters I leave out for strays. They drink both from the water with additive and the one without.

 

[kittyluv387]

no need to stay away totally. The vets here always recommend having more than 1-2 water sources available. Only one of them can have an additive. I actually add to one of the waters I leave out for strays. They drink both from the water with additive and the one without.

I'll agree that's a good workaround! Having one fresh and one with the additive.

 

[MissClouseau]

I honestly don't think any of these claims can be warranted from this study. Just because other studies also have small sample sizes doesn't make the issue of a small sample go away. This coupled with all of the other issues I listed above makes me take this with a large grain of salt. I don't think that canned food is particularly good for oral health, but the claim about 'homemade' food - whatever that refers to - is completely unjustified and irresponsible in this paper when they didn't even estimate a parameter for it. Not to mention the irresponsible causal claims being made based on correlational analyses. These types of irresponsible claims I have found to be prevalent in many many studies on feline nutrition.

Part of the problem here is that the general public doesn't know how to read a research paper and so they find a bunch of links to papers, read the abstract or the conclusion and interpret it at face value. I have not read all of the papers you linked to above and don't have time to do that right now, but I always read something in its entirety before I draw any conclusions from it. You'd be amazed by the amount of bad science out here.

To be quite honest - even if we knew for a fact that kibble would keep teeth shiny and clean, I still wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. The poor ingredients and lack of moisture are enough for me to believe that it should be banned from a cat's diet.

I don’t think any of these prompts completely changing a cat’s diet to something else. I myself won’t with Hima as I said earlier, the girl doesn’t drink enough water even for a dry-mostly diet. But I will also say a raw diet is never the same as hunting and eating a prey. Who knows maybe they “brush” their teeth and gum with the fur of the prey which is obviously they can’t do with raw diet. Or maybe acidity level and bacteria are different when the meat is super fresh. So I also wouldn’t be totally confident about raw diet-oral health.

 

[Azazel]

I don’t think any of these prompts completely changing a cat’s diet to something else. I myself won’t with Hima as I said earlier, the girl doesn’t drink enough water even for a dry-mostly diet. But I will also say a raw diet is never the same as hunting and eating a prey. Who knows maybe they “brush” their teeth and gum with the fur of the prey which is obviously they can’t do with raw diet. Or maybe acidity level and bacteria are different when the meat is super fresh. So I also wouldn’t be totally confident about raw diet-oral health.

It's well known among animal biologists that wild carnivores keep their teeth clean by tearing into prey and chewing raw bones. This isn't only true of domestic cats. People have studied other carnivorous species in the wild.

 

[MissClouseau]

It's well known among animal biologists that wild carnivores keep their teeth clean by tearing into prey and chewing raw bones. This isn't only true of domestic cats. People have studied other carnivorous species in the wild.

I understand and it makes sense about bones. I meant the difference between eating a fresh prey vs homemade raw — on oral health about the acidity level, bacteria, the temperature of the food for example. There has to be some differences between them for the better or worse but we don’t have a study as far as I know. That’s what I meant :-)

 

[kittenmittens84]

This thread is making me wonder if my cat’s love of chomping through pieces of cardboard is affecting his dental health!

 

[lisahe]

This thread is making me wonder if my cat’s love of chomping through pieces of cardboard is affecting his dental health!

Yes, we have a cat who chomps cardboard, too! (And also sticks, kindling wood!)

 

[SpecterOhPossum]

Outdated, small sample sizes, no solid evidence nor proof of other facts regarding the cats in question such as health issues, home life / environment, food brand, or owner's care for their dental hygiene [brushing] .......................eh..?

but I feel like unlike homemade raw or wet food diet of any kind,

Biased comparison; you excluded dry food. IN no way is eating crunchy cereal similar to feasting on a freshly killed rabbit in any shape or form either......... Explain which prey exactly in the wild is made up of primarily dry; hard, crunchy bits and pieces with little to no water content.

But I think the point stands that wet food gets messier in the mouth and this study is more about gum/cheek health on oral care than teeth themselves. It makes sense to me anything more liquid would be more damaging because it goes to more places in the mouth.

And so does the meat they consume in the wild. Blood; veins, chunks bits and pieces of their prey is "messy" in the mouth. I fail to see your point. Raw or home cooked is the most similar we can get to feeding them a natural diet and crunchy kibble is the furthest, simply from a mere logical observation.

Perhaps cats aren't designed to have squeaky clean teeth to last them 24 years. Perhaps they're not even designed for anything other than hunt; catch; kill; eat, breed like the majority of animals on this planet, and aren't built to last 30 years. We ought to look at these species we speak of from a biological stance and remove the bias.

You can find tens of thousands of different studies that say wildly different things to all contradict each other, so remaining reliant on them is futile and quite imperative.
Anyone can preform a "study" and publish an article about it. I could take the users of this forum, ask them a routine of questions, and publish an article applying their answers to the entire community of animal owners as a whole; worldwide; and anyone seeking whatever conclusion that came to, would then be led to use that study as a basis of their biased opinion, just because it supports their narrative and looks pretty legit. However, I'll supply a few as well that I find pretty legit so as to avoid looking like I'm just sharing ideas.

Full raw prey is on the market as well, you can easily find whole rabbit; quail; chicken; rats, etc with full fur/wings and bones. So replicating the ..

I think they "brush" their own teeth while eating their prey both with the bones and the fur of the prey.

..Process you hypothesized is actually fully possible and not some sort of "out there" idea. How exactly would kibble replicate this process, by the way? Last time I checked, kibble doesn't have flesh to tear into; bones to crunch; or hair to er.. Floss with.

the girl doesn’t drink enough water even for a dry-mostly diet.

Genrally healthy cats don't. Cats are desert evolved animals who take moisture from their prey, and with an adequate wet diet, they probably won't even blink at the water bowl and cats fed dry are being put through unnecessary risk and dare I say neglect, given the owner is aware of actual facts regarding feline nutrition.

"Cats must have water in their food. A mouse is about 65 to 75% moisture.²

Cats evolved getting most of their fluid intake from the foods they ate. They don't drink a lot of water and don't have the thirst drive that dogs or humans have. As creatures that evolved in the desert, they naturally concentrate their urine. A cat getting only dry foods will drink water, but will have a hard time making up for the lack of moisture in the food, leading to even more concentrated urine. This can promote feline lower urinary tract disease.³

Cats should be fed a diet with a moisture content that is close to what their natural prey diet would be: around 65 to 80 percent moisture. A raw cat food or a canned diet both are in this range. For more information on this, see "Answers: What Dry Food Does to Your Cat's Pee." [source]​

Oh, and I'll leave this here.

Big cats and domestic cats share the same body form and the same dental structure and shape. They all have big canines designed to rip and tear a carcass, and upper and lower molars and premolars that close perfectly like scissor blades, designed to shatter bones and slice flesh. When eating raw meat and bones, the act itself of chewing and gnawing serves as a polisher of the surface of the teeth, preventing the buildup of plaque and tartar. This is the equivalent of humans brushing and flossing our teeth. This happens every day with each meal, which means felines consuming raw meaty bones get a daily dental cleaning and brushing.

Unfortunately, the opposite occurs when we feed our cats commercial dry food. The shape of the Coarsely ground grain in the form of pellets, as for pet food, produced by extrusion and baking.
kibble is generally small in size which makes it difficult for a cat to chew, so they generally swallow the whole pellet as presented. This has zero polishing effect on the surface of the teeth. Moreover, when in contact with the saliva, the high content of An organic substance composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen; mainly from plant origin. The most important carbohydrates are starches, sugars, celluloses and gums. carbohydrates, or Any of a class of carbohydrates, such as starch and cellulose, consisting of a number of monosaccharides joined by glycosidic bonds. polysaccharides, in the pellet is released and adheres to the surface of the teeth, causing the first stage in the formation of tartar and periodontal disease, dental plaque.¹

Once this plaque has set in, stage two begins, the buildup of tartar, also called calculus. From here onwards, we can find different levels of periodontal disease. This gradation exceeds the aim of this article, but the important thing for owners to remember is that the calculus on the tooth carries millions of bacteria which reproduce at a high rate. The byproduct of this is stinky breath, ingestion of toxins, drooling, sore and bleeding gums, loose teeth, tooth loss and destruction of the jaw bone. The damage can reach different and vital organs such as kidneys, lungs, heart and liver as the bacteria spreads beyond the mouth. In the worst case, this can be life threatening. Your cat's oral health needs to be taken very seriously. [source]​

...Furthermore.... [1] and [2]