7 month Tonkinese with constant runny tum - seems to be dietary?

[pawpawkuma]

I wouldnt say I have been changing his food a lot? He has been on plain boiled chicken for 3-4 weeks now and in the last 2 weeks I gradually introduced the Catz Finefood (literally by an extra teaspoon every 2 days) which is quite slow..

I went by the vets recommendation of adding rice or potato but that upset him too (if he actually ate the stuff) and honestly I dont think they realise how complicated this is and how delicate his tum seems to be, I mean for a start they initially recommended switching to a dry-food only diet and that was the worst advice ever!

Im glad you were able to pursuade your vet! the stool samples I provided mine before were sent to an outside lab but they didnt tell me what they tested for so I am going to ask, and will definitely mention giardia and tf, but I feel like they don't like it when people look online and 'self diagnose' so to speak because theyre the professionals and obviously know better than us ! :/

I wondered if it may help if I printed something out to show them? I cant help feeling like that would seem almost patronizing, me telling them what I think it is when it should be the other way around! Argh!

I also read online that if it is TF then im going to be spending £700-900 for diagnosis and treatment. Thats a very sobering thought as my insurance will not cover any intestinal illness since hes been like this from the start

 

[lisahe]

Oh, Bailey, I'm sorry to hear Leo's gotten worse again! I would definitely push the vet on tests and diet possibilities... though can only agree with you that dry-only, rice, and potato weren't exactly brilliant options. Unfortunately, vets here, too, can be horribly clueless about diet and digestive problems: I diagnosed our previous cat's probable IBD long before her vet did.

You already tried pumpkin, didn't you? What about slippery bark elm? I've heard/read great things about that from some Cat Site members. Here's a page from a vet site that I really like: slippery bark elm.

As for your question about if there's something in every cat food that could bother Leo... well, often there is. Carrageenan is a very common ingredient in cat foods and it's known to cause problems in some cats, then there are all sorts of gums (guar, xanthan, etc.) that some people prefer not to feed, as well as potato and grains that bother some cats and really aren't that good for them to begin with. Our vet -- not the previous cat's vet, this one's pretty good on diet -- told me when we adopted our cats that since they're Siamese mixes and prone to digestive problems we should be especially careful with their diets: no grains, low-carb, high-protein. I kind of consider them "pre-IBD" so went beyond the vet's recommendations and cut out carrageenan, too, as well as potato (a known irritant for one cat) and peas. I don't feed them as many gums now, either. They get a combination of commercial raw and canned foods and seem to do well on it.

I hope you're able to get some sort of good help from the vet this evening!

 

[pawpawkuma]

Thanks Lisa..I really appreciate your support and the fact you are still following the thread. I really am disappointed as I thought he was getting better 

Maybe I shouldn't have tried introducing cat food again.. I'm just so desperate to give him something other than plain boiled meat. It's been about a month now and surely he is not getting all the vits, mins, taurine etc he needs. Very worrying given he's still just a kitten.

I had read about slippery bark elm here too, which is something I am willing to try (if I can source it) however I really want to know what is causing his issues before I treat with anything, obviously SBE isnt a medicine its just a suppliment that could relieve symptoms but I still have no idea if he has a food intolerance, ibd, giardia, tf or something else?! I'd rather get to the bottom of the cause rather than masking the symptoms if that makes sense.

Interesting info about those ingredients.. trouble is Ive never seen any of those listed as ingredients on cat food, its as if theyre hidden ingredients or just come under the term 'preservatives' so how would I know which foods don't contain those things? 

What canned foods do you feed your kitties ?

There seem to be some good, popular commercial raw foods available in the US but over here in the UK I dont think it's as common.. what Ive found online so far is extornionate and beyond my affordability (I'm certainly not poor but not rich either!) I can't say I like the idea of preparing it myself and that would probably be just as costly.

I've requested to see the head vet who is apparently the 'cat expert' so fingers crossed he'll consider my suggestions.

I also have another question if anyone knows because Ive never actually seen it explained when reading up about testing - what IS a PCR test ? And what is the likelyhood of my vet knowing, because if he doesnt then I'll have no hope at explaining lol!

 

[lisahe]

Bailey, I can't even imagine how disappointed you must be! It's so hard to have a sick cat and, yes, especially worrying that he's a kitten and not getting all his nourishment. And then all the cleanup. I remember how sad and frustrating that was with our elderly cat. A different situation but still. In any case, I'm glad you requested the cat expert -- I hope he's able to help more! I hear you about not wanting to mask the problem. And hope you're able to figure things out.

The ingredients I mentioned should be listed separately on labels, though if they're not (I'm not sure what UK regulations are on pet food labeling) I suspect the ones I mentioned would be listed as something like thickeners or stabilizers.

Good cat foods are pretty expensive here, too, and the selection of foods without any of the ingredients I mentioned is surprisingly low. I've drastically reduced the canned foods we feed our cats because of it. That's also raised the cost. They get:

-Tiki Cat's Koolina, Puka Puka, and Napili luau (the one food we feed with a lot of fish) foods as well as a bunch of Tiki's Gourmet Carnivore foods (everything but the fish and the beef/lamb). Tiki is expensive but they're the canned food our picky cat seems to like most.

-Weruva's Cats in the Kitchen foods that have chicken and no fish, including occasionally one in a pouch, Pumpkin Lickin' chicken, which I drain because the gravy is high in carbs. I use it as a treat food. Cats in the Kitchen foods are a good value.

-At night they split a can of Nutro Natural Choice: either minced chicken, sliced turkey, or chunky loaf chicken. These are a more traditional food, more mushy and blended. Tiki and Weruva are real, recognizable pieces of actual meat.

Commercial raw foods definitely don't look cheap, though they're not quite as expensive as they look because most cats need fewer ounces of food -- they get filled up faster on raw. Our cats eat Primal and Stella & Chewy's freeze-dried foods, as well as Rad Cat's frozen.

PCR is a DNA-based technology. Your vet should know the term but... Anyway, here's Wikipedia on the subject! (To be honest, I used to be a science writer and had pretty much completely forgotten what PCR is despite having seen it in use!!)

Good luck with the vet and do let us know what he says!

 

[mspurr]

I DID A LITTLE RESEARCH ON TF TESTING AND TREATMENT IN THE UK AND THEY DO PCR AND TF POUCH TESTING  AND TREATMENT IN THE UK. LANGFORD VETERINARY SERVICES AND DIAGNOSTICS IN THE UK HAD INFO ON TESTING AND TREATMENT. OH YES I WOULD DEFINITELY PRINT OUT THE INFO ON TF, I DID AND BROUGHT IT TO THE VET THE SAME DAY HE GAVE ME THE SAME INFO LOL!  IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT HIS VITAMINS BEING DEFICIENT ON HIS CURRENT DIET YOU CAN TRY VITAMIN TREATS FOR CATS OR DROPS. ALSO MY CAT PEED ALOT WHEN SHE HAD TF, THE VET SAID IT WAS BECAUSE OF A LARGER WATER INTAKE TO COMPENSATE FOR WATER LOSS FROM THE LOOSE STOOL.

 

[pawpawkuma]

Hi! It turns out I had no need to worry with my vets at all - in fact I requested to see the Head Vet who is known to be the 'cat expert' and he suggested testing for TF and Giardia before I even had a chance to show him my print-outs !!

IMG_0282.JPG

• pawpawkuma
• Mar 3, 2015

 

[lisahe]

I'm so glad the cat specialist is so up on things, Bailey! I hope @mspurr and your vet win that bet with Leo's gut! And I love the photo of Leo looking at the screen!

I think I'd be hoping for TF, too, if I were you... funny you mention it because when our cats had to have their teeth cleaned (under anesthesia) and the vet said there's a bacterium that might be causing them to have gingivitis at a young age, I was hoping for a positive test, too. It came and administering antibiotics for three weeks wasn't fun but I'm hoping it keeps their mouths clean!

(And from having to have those expensive cleanings, ouch.)

Yes, even if you can't get those foods, at least the ingredient lists might be helpful. It might also be worth looking up freeze-dried raw foods -- our cats like those more than frozen (except their beloved Rad Cat) -- and they don't need to be kept in the freezer. Also, some stores here are very willing to order frozen foods specially, if they have good freezers. Not a given on either count, of course!

I can't answer your question about the sample and timing since I've been fortunate enough not to have had to gather one.

But maybe someone else can help with that!

 

[mspurr]

I would hold off on changing Leo's diet until after you find out if he has TF and needs to be treated. after my cat was treated my vet recommended Royal Canin Special Diet 33 , this food has fiber and probiotics/flora to promote intestinal balance and healthy stools. but I have a link you can look at to get info on the PCR test and how to get and handle a sample http://www.vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/assays/tritrichomonas, also during treatment for TF you should use clumping litter and keep the box very clean to prevent reinfection. if you need to treat for TF and have any questions just send me message and i'll give you my private email. I'M SO GLAD YOU FOUND A GOOD VET YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH!!

 

[microvi]

Hi,

I hope you had been able to solve your problem. Anyway, my cat is allergic to grain, and is under grain free diet since when he was three months old.

I adopted him from a shelter and they gave me a big box of the food was grown up with. 

Since day one with me he had diarrhea with blood in, he was vomiting (but not often), eating little and sleeping a lot, biting and scratching his skin and paws. Another sign that can be associated with the food allergy is the color of the eyes, my cat eyes were dark orange, are yellowish now.

The veterinary took a lot of tests included on the feces, and told me that probably was a liver issue, and to check him back in six months. They found also a lot of blood in the anal gland.

One of the assistant told me about the fact that cats can be really sensitive to grain, and someone else told me that allergy results in orange eyes. So I tried to change diet and in a month was a new cat. I always fed him with both dry and wet food. I think is better a bit of both, the first one for the teeth and the second one for the hydration.

I was in the US at that time where there are a lot of grain free brands, but now I'm back to Italy where are only a few. I use for the dry food N&D Farmina (Italian one) and Applaws that I think is also available in the UK http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/dry_cat_food/applaws/400652.

Also the Canagan has grain free dry food, but we don't have it here - https://www.canagan.co.uk

For the wet I use Schesir, but only some kinds are no grain  http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/schesir

Probably are a bit expensive respect other brands but they are mainly meat, proteins, and he will need less amount than a full of grain one, and overall he will be really in great shape.

A last personal consideration, when you try to change between different brands and diet, give him some time, at first can have some stomach issues because of the change, that is common, but then he will settle.

Good luck!

 

[pawpawkuma]

Hey guys..

So... the results are back, and I am shocked!!

He has tested positive for BOTH TF and Giardia..

 and he also showed as having a high amount of a certain bacteria that is usually present in the gut in small amounts but it is unusually high, the vet says it is probably due to imbalance of gut flora and should resolve itself, he will be on metronizadole, ronizadole and fortiflora.. 

However on top of this, he also has feline coronavirus.

 This worries me a great deal and he mentioned it can lead to FIP which obviously is fatal.. He said try not to worry as it's actually a rather common virus and should get over it but given his state at the mo I can't help being devastated and scared.

Part of me is relieved that I now have a diagnosis and hopefully treatment will sort him out. But can't say I was expecting him to have an array of issues like this, poor poor boy.I feel like a bad owner even though he had these problems before I even adopted him!

Thank you SO much to all of you who have helped - if not for your suggestions and encouragement I may have never thought to get him checked out for these things. I have learned an awful lot here.

Keeping my fingers & toes crossed he recovers.. I will let you know! 

 

[denice]

Your kitty has an array of issues hopefully all of which will be resolved.  I think it's a domino effect, the immune system get's weakened by one which allows the others to also flourish.  Try not to worry about the corona virus.  The vast majority of the time kitties with the coronavirus do not develop FIP.  It isn't really completely understood how the virus mutates in a small percentage of kitties.  The vast majority of kitties with the coronavirus do not develop FIP.  So many kitties have had the virus that is why a kitty having antibodies against the virus is not a diagnostic tool for FIP, not having the antibodies can only rule out FIP.

 

[stephenq]

 
Hey guys..

So... the results are back, and I am shocked!!

He has tested positive for BOTH TF and Giardia..

 and he also showed as having a high amount of a certain bacteria that is usually present in the gut in small amounts but it is unusually high, the vet says it is probably due to imbalance of gut flora and should resolve itself, he will be on metronizadole, ronizadole and fortiflora.. 

However on top of this, he also has feline coronavirus.

 This worries me a great deal and he mentioned it can lead to FIP which obviously is fatal.. He said try not to worry as it's actually a rather common virus and should get over it but given his state at the mo I can't help being devastated and scared.

Part of me is relieved that I now have a diagnosis and hopefully treatment will sort him out. But can't say I was expecting him to have an array of issues like this, poor poor boy.I feel like a bad owner even though he had these problems before I even adopted him!

Thank you SO much to all of you who have helped - if not for your suggestions and encouragement I may have never thought to get him checked out for these things. I have learned an awful lot here.

Keeping my fingers & toes crossed he recovers.. I will let you know! 

I wouldn't give FIP another thought.  Not one. Zero.

 

[mspurr]

 
Hey guys..

So... the results are back, and I am shocked!!

He has tested positive for BOTH TF and Giardia..

 and he also showed as having a high amount of a certain bacteria that is usually present in the gut in small amounts but it is unusually high, the vet says it is probably due to imbalance of gut flora and should resolve itself, he will be on metronizadole, ronizadole and fortiflora.. 

However on top of this, he also has feline coronavirus.

 This worries me a great deal and he mentioned it can lead to FIP which obviously is fatal.. He said try not to worry as it's actually a rather common virus and should get over it but given his state at the mo I can't help being devastated and scared.

Part of me is relieved that I now have a diagnosis and hopefully treatment will sort him out. But can't say I was expecting him to have an array of issues like this, poor poor boy.I feel like a bad owner even though he had these problems before I even adopted him!

Thank you SO much to all of you who have helped - if not for your suggestions and encouragement I may have never thought to get him checked out for these things. I have learned an awful lot here.

Keeping my fingers & toes crossed he recovers.. I will let you know! 

 Dr. Jody Gookin DVM, who first discovered and found treatment for TF says you should not give metronidazole at the same time you  are treating TF with ronidazole!  the cat should be off metronidazole for several days, this is important to avoid a serious reaction

. there is a lot of info on treating cats with TF here http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/docs/personnel/gookin_jody.html   also you need to use clumping litter and keep the boxes very clean to prevent reinfection of TF. I WOULDN'T WORRY about the FIP! kitty's can test positive for corona virus but never develop FIP. if you have any questions about treating your kitty for TF I would be happy to help if I can..unfortunately I have a lot of experience with it!

 

[denice]

 
 Dr. Jody Gookin DVM, who first discovered and found treatment for TF says you should not give metronidazole at the same time you  are treating TF with ronidazole!  the cat should be off metronidazole for several days, this is important to avoid a serious reaction

. there is a lot of info on treating cats with TF here http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/docs/personnel/gookin_jody.html   also you need to use clumping litter and keep the boxes very clean to prevent reinfection of TF. I WOULDN'T WORRY about the FIP! kitty's can test positive for corona virus but never develop FIP. if you have any questions about treating your kitty for TF I would be happy to help if I can..unfortunately I have a lot of experience with it!

Now that you mention this it does make sense.  Both medicines have possible neurological side effects so it makes sense to not give them together. 

 

[pawpawkuma]

My vet said they were fine together however I think to play it safe I will give them seperately. It will also save him some stress not having 2 meds a day!

The ronidazole needs to be ordered in so i wont have it till next week. ive started him on the metronidazole tonight so I'll wait till he's finished that till I start the other. He did not like the paste and spat some onto my leg lol so it will be a challenge.

Thanks for reassuring me about FIP..im sure he will be fine but i hate thinking of the worst!

 

[denice]

Metro is very bitter.  The vet clinic I take my kitties to now cut it up and put it in empty gel caps.  I don't know where you can get them in the U.K. but I am sure they are available there as well.

 

[catpack]

For Giardia, if Metronidazole doesn't clear it up, 2 3-day doses of Panacur given 3 weeks apart will clear it up.

Glad to hear you have gotten a diagnosis and hope your baby feels better soon!

 

[lisahe]

I'm so glad you got a real diagnosis, @pawpawkuma! And I hope the antibiotics go well for Leo. (Looking on the bright side, you must have learnt about a lot of cat foods when you were looking for something that would agree with him!) Let us know how it all goes!

 

[pawpawkuma]

Hello!

Just thought I'd say a big thanks again to you all for your help - its been a month now and Leo has finished his treatments for the tritri & giardia..

What can I say! Things have been brilliant - so far his BMs have been fine, and hes even back on his cat food he seems to be happier and has more energy too!

So far Ive found that if I feed him any more than about 30g-40g dry a day (he has RC kitten digestive health) his poops do smell a bit and are a bit wet in the centre (its weird, like a donut with gooey filling in the centre lol) but to be honest his diet is wet based and he has not been used to dry food, its more of a suppliment.

It'll probably take a while for his gut to repair and the flora to balance but at the mo everything is showing signs that he is recovering so fingers crossed he won't relapse!! It feels too good to be true hah!

- bailey