4 Week Old Kittens, Weaning And Litterbox Issues, And Is Mom Pregnant Again?

[Azalea]

Hi!
I recently started fostering a family of five kittens and their mom. I've never had pets, so I'm still trying to figure it out!

Basically I got them when the kittens were about two weeks (ish). Mom's between 1 and 3 years old, and it's not her first litter. She's a great mom! She's never lived with people, her own mom was a stray, but she's very sweet. The little ones are all pretty healthy, all between 410 and 480 grams (there's a runt but she's catching up! )

I have a bunch of questions, both about the kittens and the mom.
First, when should I start weaning them? The 4 weeks old thing is just an estimate, they might be a bit older or younger. They've been showing interest in mom's food and have started drinking her water too. They've had baby teeth for almost a week now. And recently mom has started being a little more rough with them (they've been biting her and playing on her, and when they do that she grabs them and puts their neck in her mouth. This morning I saw her kicking one with her back legs, several times. She's been a very patient, gentle and attentive mom so far, should I be worried or is this normal?) But it's hot and I don't want to leave wet food out in case it spoils, unless they're ready and will eat it. I don't have KMR and the only goat's milk I can find is low fat.

Secondly, how do I get them to use a litterbox? Last week one of them got into mom's food and had diahrrea. Now they've started peeing and pooping on the floor (mom still helps them most of the time though). I've left them a shallow box but they don't use it. I live in a studio, and can't really confine them to a small part of it, and I'm getting tired of searching under the couch for poop and stepping in little puddles at night! Mom uses her litterbox, but they don't seem to have caught on.

And then about mom... She hasn't been out since her kittens were two weeks, but she's eating a ton. Over 110g dry kitten food plus several meals of wet food (anywhere between 85g and 270g) a day. Plus a few treats (chicken broth, lactose free milk, chicken liver, egg yolk... ) She hasn't gained any fat on her shoulders, hips, or back, but her belly is growing, it feels round and firm. She doesn't like getting on high surfaces, and makes an "oof" sound when she lands from jumping off the couch. She's really affectionate and trusting. She was de-wormed two weeks ago. The bite marks on her neck where the male cat grabbed her still hadn't healed when she arrived... Could she be pregnant again? I really hope she's not, because the rescue will get her spayed if she is...

I've spent hours reading articles, and these forums, but... Mom's very vocal and the little ones too, and they wake me up, and mom's a messy eater and scared of the vacuum cleaner, and my studio's a mess, and there's the litterbox issues, and the rolling-round-in-diahrrea-and-smearing-it-everywhere incident, and I'm always scared of stepping on someone or tripping over someone at night, and the kittens have started jumping and running and biting and scratching and tumbling around these last few days, and they're always changing sleeping places... So it's just chaos, and any help or advice would be really appreciated

 

[Sarthur2]

Mom sounds pregnant to me, but she may just enjoy food. Can you feel kittens in her belly?

Yes, begin offering the kittens wet food and kitten chow. It's time for them to begin eating solids anytime now.

You'll need a kitten-sized litter pan with non-clumping litter. Start putting the kittens in before and after meals throughout the day. Take a paw and show them how to dig. Kittens usually catch on quickly.

If the diarrhea continues, you'll need to get meds for them from the rescue, as they may have worms or parasites.

 

[Azalea]

At first I did think she was just into food, she was only fed once it twice a week before I got her. Plus her five kittens have doubled their weight and become very active in two weeks! But her shoulders, back, and hips still feel skinny/bone-y. The pictures don't show it well, but she still has a pretty marked dip at her waist in front of her hips, before her tummy flairs out. It just looks disproportionate. Is there any other way of telling? I can't feel any kittens, but her current kittens are 4 weeks ish, so she can't be more than 4 weeks along. Her nipples do seem pinker but that coincided exactly with her kittens growing teeth so it might not mean anything.
Could it be worms that survived the deworming? Or a blocage or something, even if she's using the litter box every day? I really really don't want to have to abort any kittens her current one are adorable and have already attracted interest from potential families, and l'm sure any potential new ones would too (we suspect she has Siamese genes as well). But the rescue has other kittens (black, less friendly, older...) that are also looking for families... And I also don't want her to have to go through another pregnancy, she's young and tiny, and might have already have had 3 litters...

Thanks for the advice on the kittens! It's hard to keep track of when they eat actually, they're not all on the same schedule, and often hidden away here or there, but I'd definitely try. Maybe if I start simulating them and then letting them finish in the litter box, that might work?

The diarrhea was a one time thing, luckily. I think the poor kitten just wasn't old enough to handle the food she sneaked from mom's bowl yet!

 

[Sarthur2]

With kittens just 4 weeks old, let's hope she is not pregnant. She may just finally be putting weight on and it's in her belly for now. You'll know more in time.

You can apply coconut oil to her nipples as they sound irritated from the kittens' teeth.

The kittens should not need stimulating anymore, but if it helps them learn, you can try it over the litter box.

 

[StefanZ]

Mommas behavior with them teaching harsh lessons if need be (neck grabbing, using back paws), sounds pretty normal. Her sweetness to you is not only HER being a nice cat. Its also her being a good mom - she know you are the best practical chance for hers children. So she does her outmost to be pleasant.

If kittens has much diarrhea, be sure you give them extra salts. Even a little common kitchen salt is OK for a beginning. Some clear flavorless pedialyte is probably best.

Goats milk is OK as a supplement food, for momma and for kittens, and better than low lactose cow milk which you give.

Of course, kittens grows and take more and more of her milk, so until they begin to weant, she wont not add anymore.


As you say, she may need a second deworming - its common enough. But its fully possible she is preg again. It would be roughly her third week. Really too early to show on her, but its fully possible.
You dont want to spay her IF?

 

[Azalea]

Thanks for the tips! I'll try coconut oil tomorrow, although she seems a little touchier about me touching her belly right now. So far no luck with the litterbox, but I'm still trying. I've tried feeding them mashed up wet food. Three of them aren't interested at all, the little male licked it a bit, and the runt (who's now 450g, all the others are between 500g and 520g)) ate a large tablespoon full and probably could have eaten more if I weren't afraid of overdoing it. I'm pretty happy about her eating!

I know mom's niceness is pretty self serving she gets nice warmed wet food that I put through the blender if it's chunky, because she doesn't like chewing, and she gets about a quarter of all my floor space covered in cardboard boxes and blanket forts for her babies, and all sorts of things that reinforce her niceness because I can't resist

I can't find full fat goats milk (or Pedialyte, for the matter -I'm not in the US) although I've looked in several supermarkets already! Almond, soy, coconut, rice, even low fat sheep milk... But not what I was looking for. I just figured low lactose cow's milk would at least be more nutritious (at least for the calcium) than water?

I totally believe in and support spaying and neutering! And there's no need to worry, regardless of what I say the rescue will do it anyways, even if she's pregnant. It's just that, while I understand pragmatically why it would be best to abort any babies she might have, for overpopulation issues and for her own health, it would still be heartbreaking to do so. That's why I really hope she's not pregnant.

About mom - the rescue gave her a second dewormer this morning (the kind that they put on the back of the neck? they didn't tell me the name). I'm not sure how fast it's supposed to work, and how fast I can figure out if the issue is worms. I'm worried about her, though she's not acting any differently. She has a bite mark on her neck that's just not healing as well as I thought it would, and her belly is still bigger and her back and ribs still feel skinny. If she is prenant, and if she is not supposed to show yet, why the (still growing) appetite and the growing belly? Here she is today (sorry for the mess, the little ones play in their litter box and mom's afraid of the vacuum and I don't want to stress her out right now)

 

[Sarthur2]

She may need antibiotics for her bite wound. It may be infected.

Can you post a picture of the wound please?

 

[Azalea]

The bottom two were there when she arrived, I was told it was where the tom cat bit her. They were better a few days ago, scabbing over and hair growing back, but she might have been licking them out something, and now they're looking more like the way they did when she arrived, like she's getting the scabs off. And the top one is fresh, and I can't figure out how it happened! One minute she's fine, then the doorbell rings, she hides under the couch, the people from the rescue come, coax her out, apply the dewormer, leave, and then by the time she comes out from under the couch again it's there, and bleeding, and I can't find anything sharp under the couch.

 

[Sarthur2]

Oh my! Can you ask for antibiotics for her?

I wouldn't think she'd be able to reach there to pull the scabs off, but maybe she can.

Poor mama!

 

[Azalea]

I've sent that picture to the people at the rescue and they said they'll see if they can visit this week to check on her and determine if she should see a vet. I think they might be busy, it's a small rescue, just five people, their own homes and a Facebook page, and they lost a 3 week old recently, and of course it's kitten season.
I know she can lick it, if she twists her neck just right and tucks her chin in. I try to distract her when I see her do it, but I don't often see her do it. I'm not entirely sure what I can do to help her right now, other than keep her environment super calm and feed her all she wants and build her blanket forts to sleep in!

 

[Sarthur2]

That's good. And hopefully it will begin healing soon.

 

[talkingpeanut]

How and when do they plan to determine if she is pregnant again?

 

[Azalea]

I really don't know! They said they'd drop by some time this week, but I know they have more urgent things going on, sick orphan kittens and so on, so they'll probably prioritize that. As for how, I don't know either, but I do know the person who's supposed to come is much more experienced than me with cats, so, I guess that's something.

 

[Sarthur2]

Even if she is pregnant, she should not be spayed right now while she is still nursing 4-week-old kittens.

In another 4 weeks when they wean she may be too far along to spay.

Would you foster her through another litter if that's what it comes to?

 

[Azalea]

I know, I'm concerned about that too... Should I try to accelerate the weaning process if it turns out she is pregnant? I don't want to, but I'm trying to see what options there are.

Yeah, I'd foster them. I already kind of want to adopt the mom anyways. Although the rescue has a strict no adoptions before 12 weeks policy, and so they'll all be in a one room apartment and I might start classes again by that time, so... I'm predicting that it would be chaos! But I'm willing to do it if it happens.

 

[Sarthur2]

The kittens will start weaning around 5-6 weeks regardless, and I would not attempt to rush this process.

Wait to see what happens regarding a potential new pregnancy.

Right now I am concerned that those bite marks heal.

 

[Azalea]

Is there anything I can put on them? I have dettol but apparently that's toxic to cats, right? Is there anything else I can try? Saline? Betadine? Shops are closed, but by law there's supposed to at least one pharmacy open within a certain area, at all times, so I could go buy something there if I have to.

 

[Sarthur2]

I would just leave it alone for now until the rescue can look at it. I think antibiotics will help though.

 

[Azalea]

Ok, I'll do that then. Thank you so much!
Edit- so mom just came up to me, started rubbing her head all over my hands (I let her decide when/how she wants me to pet her, I don't push her or anything), and she took my wrist in her mouth like she does her kittens necks, and then nipped at my fingers. I'm kind of confused about why, was I doing something wrong, or?

 

[Sarthur2]

Sounds like a love nip, and like she wanted you to use your hand to pet her!