2 ferals in a small home how can they most safely meet face to face?

[satya]

I have been posting in the pregnant cats forum about Kulu, a feral 5 or 6 month old and her kittens.

She has been sequestered since she was brought into the house 3 weeks ago.

Shortly before she showed up at my place, I adopted 2 feral male cats, about a year old.

One of them chased her while she was outside, and I found a new home for him. The other one is not a dominant cat but did get into a major fight with the dominant male next door. He is super sensitive and after a month still flees the house if he feels threatened. It is taking him a while to feel that he gets to have a home and I do not want to jeopardize that. These two cats might have met outside before she came in, certainly knew of each other.

So for 3 weeks they have been 'meeting' through a door and there are frequent yowls and hisses, also a bit of 'talking'. I cannot figure out who is the aggressor, they both seem to do it.

Now her kittens have come and I want to start letting her into the rest of the house and I know she wants to go outdoors when the kittens are ready for that, in a few weeks. It is time to consider the next step of how this is going to manifest.

She is tiny and young, the size of a 4 month old kitten. And fierce, having been feral her entire life and also a mother. He is big and strong and healthy. My house is really small with only one cat door entrance. Even one cat fight is not an option for either of them or me.I  have my own fears of violence, having been caught in a  dog fight and bitten badly while trying to keep my dog from being killed by two others.

Someone suggested a screen door between them but I cannot manage that scenario.

I have fed them both treats on the same towel, they both sit on my lap while I am wearing the same clothes.

I would appreciate any thoughts on how to safely provide a way for them to meet and become accustomed to inhabiting the same space.

 

[callista]

Everybody's fixed, I hope?

More time's your best bet. Get them used to each other. Teach them that "other cat" equals good things. Swap their scents, feed them near each other. If they'll play with wand toys, let them play near each other. Supervised introductions first through a baby gate. Never move to the next step until they are calm and used to the current step--don't rush them.

How feral are they exactly? Do they let you touch them? Share a room with them without hiding? Or do they prefer to hide when you are near? If they will play with wand toys you have a great tool--they keep you at arm's length, but they're still interacting. A wand toy is a great way to tire a cat out before introductions, so that they are too tired to fight. Tired cat equals relaxed cat equals relaxed introduction.

Any mishaps, any growling, move a step back and try again.

 

[satya]

Thank you for your message Callista

Kriya the male was fixed about 2 months ago, at about 9 months. He was not brought into a home till 6 months.

The momma just had her kittens on Friday and will not be spayed until they are weaned and her health is stable.

That is not for awhile, and she already wants to come out every time I visit. Right now it is cool but will warm up fast.

She shredded the window screens already. So I am motivated to  move forward with the introductions.

Do you suggest I feed them on opposite sides of the door?

I thought about a baby gate but both these cats are amazingly athletic - I have seen Kriya jump 6 feet from a standstill and Kulu effortlessly climbs 10 feet. A baby gate is so low - would they respect it?

I am going into town tomorrow and will buy one if it can work.

Kulu momma cat does not understand play at all - with anything. Kriya loves to play with string and we play up and down the hallway. I can tire him out some, he is only just a year old and has boundless energy.

They are very loving with me, both love to be held and petted, although before the birth, Kulu would bite or claw after a bit, now she relaxes and enjoys herself..

Thank you

 

[callista]

Naw, the baby gate wouldn't stop them; but it would mean they'd have to make an extra jump to get across it to each other. Once you get past the "closed door" stage, a baby gate is a good way to make the open door harder to get through while you get them closer, during feedings or joint play sessions. A baby gate lets them see, smell, and hear each other, but makes it a little harder for one cat to bum-rush the other! Distract with food, toys, and anything else they happen to like, and make sure that neither cat can corner the other when they finally get to meet in the same room.

Glad they've befriended you! Bet they had some experience with humans as kittens; early experiences can work wonders when a cat goes half-wild and has to be tamed again. That was what I guess happened with Tiny, my own semi-feral boy; I imagine he must've known humans as a young kitten before he got dumped on the streets, or he wouldn't have warmed up so quickly. He let me get close almost right away, and pet him within a month, and within two months he had stepped onto my lap. He's still a bit tense about actually sitting on my lap, but he loves his cuddles now, provided I'm down on his level and he knows he can leave if he likes.

 

[satya]

Thanks for the good advice. I will check out baby gates and screens tomorrow and pick something up.

They are both into treats, so I can use that as a diversion. Maybe when Kulu sees Kriya playing she will get interested in the idea. When I offer her toys and moving things she just ignores them now.

Tiny and Christy are smart cats, to have chosen you.

 

[shadowsrescue]

First off I would suggest taking a look at cat to cat introductions http://www.thecatsite.com/a/introducing-cats-to-cats  If you follow the steps and take it very slowly you will have success.  Last year I introduced a feral/stray cat that I brought inside the house to my resident cat.  I followed the cat to cat introductions and I thought all was going well.  Then I rushed the steps and disaster struck.  I had major cat fighting on my hands and it took months of reintroductions for the cats to tolerate each other.  So please take the steps very slowly not moving to the next step until all is well. 

I had great success with a screen door as well as a large dog cage.  I used a cheap screen door from Lowes ($20) and fastened it to the door frame with cheap tension rods ($4).  I didn't have to deface the door at all.  I also had a baby gate in the door way for extra protection.  This safely allowed the cats to sniff and see each other.  Of course the visits were always supervised.  Here is a picture of my set up

IMG_1228.JPG

• shadowsrescue
• Sep 18, 2013

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• shadowsrescue
• Sep 18, 2013

 

[satya]

Wow, what a secure set-up. That looks great. Thank you.

I appreciate the reminder to go slow. I am especially mindful since there are 4 new kittens in with the momma.

Thank you for the link explaining how to do the introductions, I was hoping for something like that and could not locate it.

I remembered a very sturdy portable dog cage from when I was fostering a dog and it will work well for the lower part - it is several layers of metal grates so they can look but not touch (at this point, seems like a good idea). I live very far away from town so will find something else to place above that, in place of the screen door but an obstacle to prevent either one from jumping over till they are more accepting. The tricky part is that I have to be able to reach both sides to distribute treats so it has to be pretty easily movable and light. I am going to dig around under my house to see if I have any old screens from when I replaced my windows.

 

[satya]

So I went ahead with the blanket/rug part first. I used a rug the momma had been sitting on and eating on and watched to see how the male reacted when his food was placed on it.

No reaction at all. They have been in the same house for a month now so their smells are pretty familiar. I fed him on it for awhile then returned it to her, no reaction.

So I went ahead and tried using it on both sides of the door with treats for both. He hissed and growled the first time but ate his treats. She just ate hers, I heard no noise from her.

So I tried it again and she happily ate her treats while he just growled and then walked away without eating his treats, even though he had enjoyed them the night before.Waited till neither had eaten for awhile and tried again. Again he growled and hissed and walked away. I am not sure how to get through this step to engage in any of the others.

The situation is complicated by the fact that he goes outdoors at first light and stays out till evening, so I have limited time to work on this.

Suggestions are welcome.

I did find an old screen I can use WHEN we get to the stage where they can be introduced, so that is good news.

On another note, he often quivers his tail and hindquarters like a cat spraying. I wonder whether this is because he was neutered later, not till about 8 months of age? He does not spray and i cannot find a correlation to this pattern - more likely pleasure since he often does it when he and I are together.

One more question - the kittens are still in eyes closed eat,sleep, squeak mode. But I have noticed something in all of them at one time or another - they open their mouths wide and seem to be panting for a second or two. When I watched their bodies I saw the breath is coming from the abdomen, not high in the chest so it does not seem to be oxygen deprivation.Is this an indication of anything?All seem to be healthy, although their mother has a number of health issues surfacing.

Thank you for any responses to this mixed bag reply.

 

[callista]

I think the baby kittens are probably hissing.

Does it look like this?

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

 

[shadowsrescue]

You might want to try a really yummy food instead of treats.  Try canned wet food or even a small bit of tuna with our without the juice.  You want them to associate positive/good things with each other and food is usually a good motivator.  The trick is to find something delicious and irresistable.  You can also try plan cooked chicken as well. 

 

[satya]

Yes, that is an adorable video and that is exactly what they were doing.

Now they seem to have stopped.

I appreciate the idea about feeding them at the same time but cannot seem to manage it.

Both cats get organic egg yolks and raw food and high quality canned food and no dry stuff, which they both love.

So for them, it is a rare treat. Being a vegetarian I am not going to cook meat for them, especially when they get super duper raw stuff daily.

Nursing momma eats 4x a day and will always eat anything I give her. No problem there.

Boy cat is not  interested in food  and he catches his own while he is outside. He is super high strung, when he is eating, almost anything will cause him to stop and leave - a sound, a door opening, and he will stay away till it seems safe. If he can escape to outside, it may be hours till he shows up. Since he is feral- thin, it seems important for his actual food times to be restful and peaceful, so he will feel safe to eat.  He does not yet trust that he is welcome and safe in a house, so I am trying to be very mindful to give him quality time when he is.

I have never given tuna to any of my cats. It seems to cause such crazed behavior, like a drug. I can try it, if you feel it is safe and would be over the top fabulous.  I could also try sardines. Both cats get salmon in their raw food and the male is actually less inclined to eat fish, he prefers non fish flavors.

In a strange but necessary turn of events, his birth brother left and the female came into the house on the same day.

He had never been away from his brother and may be disinclined to accept her because of this. It had to be that way, it was the only option. His brother was chasing her away and I discovered she was pregnant. Living in the wilderness as I do, with no neighbors willing to take her in, her safety depended on that action. Sigh.

I know this will work out, because they both came to me, but am not sure how, that's all. I appreciate the support.

 

[satya]

The plot thickens........

They will now eat treats between the door with no noise ONLY if I stay away and do not check on them.If I am lurking, the male growls but it is a mumbled growl, through mouthfuls and not very threatening.

At one point I was in the room with momma and babies and watched her have a conversation through the door with the male, and it was quite cordial.Her body language was relaxed.

Virtually every time the male hisses (and he also then runs as if alarmed) I have been present and watching.I think it happens when she startles him as he goes down the hall.

So it seems that I am an inadvertent player in this, according to the male.

The good news is that without my presence, the male seems more relaxed and less aggressive.

However when it comes time to introduce them through the screen, my supervision will skew the response.

One kitten has opened eyes on day 11, the others I expect will follow suit shortly. Mayhem ahead!

 

[satya]

The cats now spend up to 5 minutes eating treats on either side of a screened barricade.

There is very little hissing and no actual growling, although it is best when both are actively involved in eating.

I just feed momma part of her meal since it takes her more time to eat that. When I gave her treats she ate them so quickly that she soon went on to the complaining stage or I had to give her an entire bag of treats at every meeting.

I am going to continue this and each time give them a  minute longer to just interact through the barricade after they finish.

So it is proceeding.

However I am not sure when the final state of meeting can be accomplished.

Although the male is a sweet young cat, there have been instances of males killing kittens and I cannot really know how he will react. Which means I may need to keep her and the kittens sequestered in the room for another 2 months, until the kittens are mainly weaned and have been given away, before I can allow them to  meet and her to go outside. Which seems like a really long haul since she has already been in there for more than a month and it is going to be really hot in the room by then. I cannot keep the windows up for air because she shreds the screens trying to get out. I have nowhere else to put them, I have only 3 rooms in my house. She cries pretty well nonstop all day now, just looking for attention for herself I think.

I  appreciate any thoughts from you experienced folks.

 

[satya]

We are now one week into the 'treats through the barricade' and it is going well. The male still hisses when she gets too close to him although the barricade keeps about 5 inches between them. Otherwise they just sit there and gulp treats till they run out at which point he walks away.

We had a cold spell and I left the door open slightly all day (with the barricade up) so that the room with mom and kittens would get some warm air from the woodstove. The male was not happy but managed to walk by it multiple times without hissing (well, just a touch). That means progress!

 

[callista]

Slow and steady, that's what we like to see! Kittens are, what, six weeks now?

Even peacefully co-existing cats sometimes hiss at each other. The important thing is that if one hisses, the other backs off; that they're not cornering or intimidating each other. Some cats will never be snuggle buddies (yours might or might not; it's too early to tell), but can still live quite peacefully dividing the territory between them. So, the hissing is not the end of the world. They are communicating as cats do, saying back away, give me space. If one cat hisses and the other gives them space, that usually works out just fine.

Suggestion: When you integrate them, make sure there are lots of perches and hideaways; that way, any cat that gets intimidated by the other can always find an escape route. That way, if she gets close to the male and he doesn't like it, he can hop up onto a perch or duck into a box, and get away from her. Just make sure she doesn't guard the litter box (two or three boxes always available is a good idea), or block off his escape, and he should eventually settle down as he learns to predict her actions.

 

[satya]

Thank you for all that great information.

I have noticed that the male hisses when he is seeing the female, when she is up against the barricade and crying.

It reminds me of a teenager and a little sister who is always nagging at him him because she wants to be included.

And when he hisses she does not back away, she just stays right there.Usually after the hiss, there is some talking between them.

The kittens were born 3 weeks ago this morning. They are just mastering the climb out of their box.

Last night I heard more prolonged and loud hissing than I had heard in quite awhile and when I went to investigate, it turned out that all 4 kittens had made the journey across the very slippery floor to the door way,where their mother was standing and crying, so the male was reacting to the entire crew. I closed the door after that to give him some peace and he settled down quickly.

I have never seen the mother carrying any of the babies back to the box. Is it possible that she does not know how or they are too heavy for her? Nature took over for the entire birthing and kitten care process. But she is tiny and they are getting bigger by the minute.

I am not expecting snuggle buddies, although it would be great. But mutual acceptance and sovereignty is required here.

The house is really small, with only one cat door that is right across form the room where she stays, but the male has a high perch to escape to (although I know the female could get up there, I hope she leaves it to him. I can also leave the cat door open so he can escape the house,  which is always his desire when anyone comes in or anything scares him. My only concern is that when he escapes he stays out for hours and  may not want to come back if he feels his part of the house has now been invaded by her. And I live in the wilderness, where all cats have to be in at night because we have hawks and coyotes and mountain lions who live very close to us.

He does not even use a litter box inside, although he has one. I expect one she can be outside again she will not either.

So I do not see that as a problem.

I am still concerned about his possibly harming the kittens. Is there an age at which they are too big to be seen as whatever it is he might see them as (threat, used of resources). Or do I have to wait till the 10 week point  when they go to new homes before I can integrate?

 

[satya]

Well, my intentions were good but this process totally derailed.

I had to stop  doing the treats on either side of the barricade because the kittens are now 5 weeks old and extremely active and they all come rushing over, which causes the male to become very stressed. So he now stays out from early morning till late so there is no longer an opportunity.I keep the door closed because when it is open momma stands there and cries and the kittens try to climb the barricade.

Meanwhile Kulu momma has now been locked into the room for 8 weeks. Her kittens are active and busy playing much of the day. She did not have enough milk for them so they are mostly weaned now. She cannot really get away from them as they get better at climbing. And it is another 4 weeks till they go to new homes.

So she and the male Kriya have now been in the house together for 2 months and never met face to face without a barricade.

He still hisses when he walks by and she is crying through the door (which  is most of the time) . He is more comfortable being in the house and does not seem to be reacting to her in any big way. But he is still extremely reactive and has huge fear issues around almost everything.

I wonder about the possibility of letting her go outside while keeping the kittens in the room. So she could get out for some time every day. It would mean that she and Kriya would meet outside, without supervision by me.

I just do not know whether that might feel safer or more dangerous. I do know that he has been seem talking with one of my neighbor's female cats in a relatively social way. And in the outdoors he has lots of space to run. He is much more comfortable outdoors than  in my very small house.

I would appreciate any thoughts people might  have.

 

[satya]

Well, the universe got involved and it happened.

This morning I just got the feeling to let her out the back door.

The male is never around in the day, he seems to spend most of his time with my neighbors cats or catching critters.

I let her out on the back deck and she spent a few minutes crying and exploring.

Suddenly, the male showed up and walked towards her.

I just watched as they touched noses first and then he hissed and she jumped back a few inches.

Then he walked away from her, off the deck.

She started to follow him, and I picked her up and put her back inside and then went back outside.

He came back on the back deck, let me pet him a few times and then lay down on the deck for a few minutes while I talked to him.

Then he left.

There were no signs in either cat of real distress - no hairs raised on tail or back.

 I am hoping and planning to let her out every day for some time.

How does it sound to those who know about appropriate responses?

The kittens are going to stay indoors, in their room.

She does not know how to use a cat door so I will be opening doors for her.

I know that I may not be seeing or monitoring any connections they make, as she travels further into the yard.

But based on what I saw, it seems safe to let the two of them get to know each other outside first, then inside at a later time.

I appreciate any comments.