15yr Old Female Not Happy With 4yr Old Male

[ziggyandshade]

Hello everyone

I have a 15yr old Tortie, Shady who has never liked the black kitten I rescued when he was a new born. He is now 4. I neutered him at 6 months. Shady is spayed too.
Ever since I added him to our home she’s hissed at him and won’t be around him. If she could get outside she’d run as fast as she could. When I initially had him I kept them separate. I let her hear him and sniff him under the door for about a month. I then held her around him and let her see him for short amounts of time, she would become upset so I’d let her run away in the house. She even lived outside the house in a cat mansion I setup in Florida under the covered garage. She would not come back inside. I’ve moved to California with them (driving) I have this set up in my apartment that’s not ideal at all but it keeps them separate and she has peace. He was always curious of her and wanted to play which I think was our first problem.
Her food, litter box and numerous beds are up high on a platform in my room but it’s not enough space for her. I built a catwalk that travels the entire way around my apartment, the boy, Ziggy can’t get to her but she won’t use it. It’s been 5 months since I had it built and she just looks at it and meows. I spend a lot of time with her on the platform but it’s only 7’x 4’
Please help with some silo tins to reintroduce them so that we could have a peaceful home(and I don’t yave to stand in a ladder petting and brushing my poor old kitty.
Thank you so much!!

 

[calicosrspecial]

I am sorry to hear this.

So they are totally separate right now? Is visual as well and physical contact totally separated?

How does Shady walk around? Tall, tail up? Or low to the ground, tail down? Does she hide or avoid areas or does she go all around (in her territory) confidently?

How about Ziggy?

In these situations I always focus on positive associations and building confidence.

So I always use food to build trust. So with the other cat's scent around I feed treats or food the cat loves to make a positive association.

I also try to make every encounter between them whether via scent, visual or actually physical proximity to be as positive as possible. Distracting them with something positive in order to show the other cat that the cat is not a threat.

Very important, is to build confidence using play. Really good play sessions then after play feed either treats or a meal. this replicates the Hunt, capture, Kill, Eat instinct behavior they do in the wild. It builds confidence and territorial security.

Also, I make sure that they have warm and comfy bedding, cat trees, and scratching posts. Things to "own" which builds confidence.

Finally, I stay as calm and confident around them as possible. Cats take on our emotions so the more calm and confident we are the more they tend to be. And just let the cats know they are loved (which is easy because you obviously love them). We want to convey to Shady that everything is cool.

I am happy to help you through this so please share any information and ask any questions any time. The more confident a cat is the more likely they will accept another cat. This is common and we can get through this.

 

[margd]

Before getting down to business, I have to chuckle a bit at the strange image autocorrect has put into my mind. I'm pretty sure that you meant "solutions" before autocorrect decided that "tin silos" would be a better expression of your idea!

While I was writing, the post from C calicosrspecial came in with so many valuable tips that I have only a few things to add. First, it will probably help to refresh your mind about introductions if you read this article: How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide It may be a bit late in the game to go through a reintroduction but it is always worth a try. Success may, in part, depend on how much Ziggy has mellowed with age. From what you said, it seems he means well but Shady is a sedate old lady and doesn't want to rough house with an energetic youth.

When reintroducing, it's not necessary to keep one cat confined to one room, although I understand that Shady is more comfortable there at the moment. Is there anyway that you can divide the apartment up so that each cat has roughly the same amount of territory? (As an apartment dweller myself, I know that is not the easiest thing to manage). You can then move directly to the territory swapping stage of the process. However you have their space divided, start moving them back and forth between the two spaces so they get used to the idea of being in each other's space. That will also help address your concern that Shady doesn't have enough space.

When (if) they seem comfortable in each others territory, you can try giving them short, monitored time together. Let them spar a bit - this helps them establish the pecking order.

Regardless of whether or not they reach the point of co-existing together, you will still need to help Shady accept her catwalk. (Building one was a great idea, btw). Does she have easy access to it? She's getting up there in years and may be developing arthritis. Make sure that she can get up on it with no difficulty. Use treats to encourage her to use it. Spraying it with catnip may be another good idea. Does she have a window view from the catwalk? If so, see if you can't entice her up to the catwalk by enhancing the view. A classic way to do this is to add a birdfeeder, although that only works if she's satisfied watching and doesn't get frustrated because she can't get out.

Does Ziggy also have a catwalk? Since he's an energetic young cat, he would almost surely love having the additional space to roam and explore.

Please let us know how it works out!

 

[ziggyandshade]

I am sorry to hear this.

So they are totally separate right now? Is visual as well and physical contact totally separated?

How does Shady walk around? Tall, tail up? Or low to the ground, tail down? Does she hide or avoid areas or does she go all around (in her territory) confidently?

How about Ziggy?

In these situations I always focus on positive associations and building confidence.

So I always use food to build trust. So with the other cat's scent around I feed treats or food the cat loves to make a positive association.

I also try to make every encounter between them whether via scent, visual or actually physical proximity to be as positive as possible. Distracting them with something positive in order to show the other cat that the cat is not a threat.

Very important, is to build confidence using play. Really good play sessions then after play feed either treats or a meal. this replicates the Hunt, capture, Kill, Eat instinct behavior they do in the wild. It builds confidence and territorial security.

Also, I make sure that they have warm and comfy bedding, cat trees, and scratching posts. Things to "own" which builds confidence.

Finally, I stay as calm and confident around them as possible. Cats take on our emotions so the more calm and confident we are the more they tend to be. And just let the cats know they are loved (which is easy because you obviously love them). We want to convey to Shady that everything is cool.

I am happy to help you through this so please share any information and ask any questions any time. The more confident a cat is the more likely they will accept another cat. This is common and we can get through this.

Hi and thanks for the reply!

You offered so much great advice, I feel I have a lot to work with!

They are physically separated but he can still see her and she sees him. I think thats the reason she won't use the catwalk, because he watches her and she gets upsets. She does have toys on her platform but with limited space she can't run. For her age she's very agile and a good hunter, she's super fast. Considering she was hit by a scooter about 5 years ago she healed well. There are no residual affects. I fed her by hand 4 times a day using a syringe. It wasn't a good time for either of us.
As far as how Shady moves around, she's confident in her "penthouse"
She does play and jumps over her beds, jumps ontop of her litter box, rubs her face all over her cat scratchers, eats catnip and rolls around. While she does this Ziggy is staring at her and making little BRRUUP noises (I know, I sound crazy!)
I have brought her down onto the bed a few times. She is happy with me but aware of Ziggy stalking around. He started to hunt her and get this weird aggressive look on his face so I put her back up.

If I close off the apartment and give them each a room I will have to take down part of her catwalk because it wraps around the connecting doorway.
Another issue would be sleeping. If Ziggy doesn't sleep in the bedroom with me he yowls all night, literally all night and shreds the carpet under the door.

I do need to be more calm because I get upset looking at Shady wanting to come down and be with me.
I can play more with her, make her catwalk private so he can't see her, teach her Ziggy is okay with food like you said....

I considered getting a tall gate so that they're separated in the rooms but can smell each other.
Do you think this will help?

Thanks so much! I really appreciate it!
Leah

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome.

Thank you for doing all you do for Shady. Wow, you nursed her back to health. Wonderful.

Yes, I think you are right. He looks at her and it causes her insecurity. She probably never really got 100% comfortable with him so there is still some lack of trust.

So I would like to limit the visual if at all possible. That will help her build more confidence (though she sounds pretty confident for the most part),

I would love to also try to get Ziggy to hangout in another part of the home. Maybe a cat tree by a window to take some attention away? Warm and comfy bedding in a separate area. Just to help her from being stared at a lot.

A tall gate is a very good idea but at this point I think limiting visual contact would be most helpful. Then when we do allow more visual (and have the gate) we can distract him with play, food, etc to show her that he is not a threat.

Anytime we can distract his focus on her it will help her build trust with him. Because a cat doesn't look away from a potential threat so looking away says "I am not threatened by you" which is good.

And step up play if possible with her and feed after. Also, use food with his scent around. Anything to make a positive association and to let her know that he is not a threat.

What was his look when he was hunting her? Were his ears back? Tail swishing? Hair up? Eyes dilated? If you ever see this distract him with something positive to get the attention away from her.

We will figure this out, don't worry. This is very common. The keys are Play (to build confidence) and after play feed. Keep their encounters as positive as possible distract positively if needed. Use food to build positive associations. Try to encourage Ziggy to spend more time in other areas away from her (don't force him just make it really attractive for him). And stay calm and confident and let them know everything is cool.

Now MargD is on this as well and she is excellent. We will get through this and improve the situation. Always here for you.

 

[ziggyandshade]

Yes, he had flat ears, puffed fur, swishing tail, dilated eyes. I did the wrong thing by removing her.
I will try again but distract him.Thanks so much! I really appreciate your support.

Before getting down to business, I have to chuckle a bit at the strange image autocorrect has put into my mind. I'm pretty sure that you meant "solutions" before autocorrect decided that "tin silos" would be a better expression of your idea!

While I was writing, the post from C calicosrspecial came in with so many valuable tips that I have only a few things to add. First, it will probably help to refresh your mind about introductions if you read this article: How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide It may be a bit late in the game to go through a reintroduction but it is always worth a try. Success may, in part, depend on how much Ziggy has mellowed with age. From what you said, it seems he means well but Shady is a sedate old lady and doesn't want to rough house with an energetic youth.

When reintroducing, it's not necessary to keep one cat confined to one room, although I understand that Shady is more comfortable there at the moment. Is there anyway that you can divide the apartment up so that each cat has roughly the same amount of territory? (As an apartment dweller myself, I know that is not the easiest thing to manage). You can then move directly to the territory swapping stage of the process. However you have their space divided, start moving them back and forth between the two spaces so they get used to the idea of being in each other's space. That will also help address your concern that Shady doesn't have enough space.

When (if) they seem comfortable in each others territory, you can try giving them short, monitored time together. Let them spar a bit - this helps them establish the pecking order.

Regardless of whether or not they reach the point of co-existing together, you will still need to help Shady accept her catwalk. (Building one was a great idea, btw). Does she have easy access to it? She's getting up there in years and may be developing arthritis. Make sure that she can get up on it with no difficulty. Use treats to encourage her to use it. Spraying it with catnip may be another good idea. Does she have a window view from the catwalk? If so, see if you can't entice her up to the catwalk by enhancing the view. A classic way to do this is to add a birdfeeder, although that only works if she's satisfied watching and doesn't get frustrated because she can't get out.

Does Ziggy also have a catwalk? Since he's an energetic young cat, he would almost surely love having the additional space to roam and explore.

Please let us know how it works out!

Before getting down to business, I have to chuckle a bit at the strange image autocorrect has put into my mind. I'm pretty sure that you meant "solutions" before autocorrect decided that "tin silos" would be a better expression of your idea!

While I was writing, the post from C calicosrspecial came in with so many valuable tips that I have only a few things to add. First, it will probably help to refresh your mind about introductions if you read this article: How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide It may be a bit late in the game to go through a reintroduction but it is always worth a try. Success may, in part, depend on how much Ziggy has mellowed with age. From what you said, it seems he means well but Shady is a sedate old lady and doesn't want to rough house with an energetic youth.

When reintroducing, it's not necessary to keep one cat confined to one room, although I understand that Shady is more comfortable there at the moment. Is there anyway that you can divide the apartment up so that each cat has roughly the same amount of territory? (As an apartment dweller myself, I know that is not the easiest thing to manage). You can then move directly to the territory swapping stage of the process. However you have their space divided, start moving them back and forth between the two spaces so they get used to the idea of being in each other's space. That will also help address your concern that Shady doesn't have enough space.

When (if) they seem comfortable in each others territory, you can try giving them short, monitored time together. Let them spar a bit - this helps them establish the pecking order.

Regardless of whether or not they reach the point of co-existing together, you will still need to help Shady accept her catwalk. (Building one was a great idea, btw). Does she have easy access to it? She's getting up there in years and may be developing arthritis. Make sure that she can get up on it with no difficulty. Use treats to encourage her to use it. Spraying it with catnip may be another good idea. Does she have a window view from the catwalk? If so, see if you can't entice her up to the catwalk by enhancing the view. A classic way to do this is to add a birdfeeder, although that only works if she's satisfied watching and doesn't get frustrated because she can't get out.

Does Ziggy also have a catwalk? Since he's an energetic young cat, he would almost surely love having the additional space to roam and explore.

Please let us know how it works out!

Hi and thanks for the reply.
Yes, that was a bizarre auto correct! SO funny!

I’m using my phone to reply to the messages and it’s challenging to know if I’m replying to the correct person.

I think Shady is so nervous of him I don’t want them to spar in anyway. I worry it might completely rule out any chance of them putting up with each other.
Ziggy does not have his own catwalk. My place is tiny and it’s a rental so I didn’t want to put up a second one. I also need to find a way to have the bedroom door open since I need the breeze blowing through my place. It gets very hot in summer otherwise.
I’m thinking a tall gate that will allow air to blow through but keep them separate will work. I just need to find one that’s easy to put up.
Ziggy seems curious at first but when Shady starts to shrink away and hide he seems to click into hunt mode and looks aggressive. I probably need to build her confidence more?

Thank you for all the help!! It’s much appreciated!

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome.

Ok, given his reaction I really would like to take a step back and keep them totally separated including visual if at all possible. We will have to do positive association using scent and food etc while we build up their confidence (through play, food, height and love). And let's try to get Ziggy interested in hanging out in other places of the house as I mentioned in the prior message.

Maybe a screen door to allow the breeze? I don't know the setup but maybe gates in another part of the house that keep Ziggy away from the bedroom door?

We need to get them desensitized to each other and make a positive association.

So does Ziggy only go into hunt mode when Shady acts like prey? It is VERY common for a cat to see another cat act like prey (lack confidence, fear, etc) and then go after it. It is instinct. If we can build her confidence and build positive associations then she may stand up more and avoid any chase etc which then reinforces confidence and leads to less chasing and more acceptance. In other words, a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked.

So let's keep stepping up play to build confidence and feed after. And also build those positive associations using food and scent. Try to make every encounter as positive as possible distracting him as needed to avoid chases etc. As she builds more trust and confidence she will be less likely to run away from him and therefore he will be less likely to chase her and we can get into a positive positive feedback loop (positives build on positives).

We will get there. It will take some time and effort but there are enough positives that I am confident we can get them to get along.

Please let us know how things are going and please ask anything anytime. Always here for you.

 

[ziggyandshade]

I am sorry to hear this.

So they are totally separate right now? Is visual as well and physical contact totally separated?

How does Shady walk around? Tall, tail up? Or low to the ground, tail down? Does she hide or avoid areas or does she go all around (in her territory) confidently?

How about Ziggy?

In these situations I always focus on positive associations and building confidence.

So I always use food to build trust. So with the other cat's scent around I feed treats or food the cat loves to make a positive association.

I also try to make every encounter between them whether via scent, visual or actually physical proximity to be as positive as possible. Distracting them with something positive in order to show the other cat that the cat is not a threat.

Very important, is to build confidence using play. Really good play sessions then after play feed either treats or a meal. this replicates the Hunt, capture, Kill, Eat instinct behavior they do in the wild. It builds confidence and territorial security.

Also, I make sure that they have warm and comfy bedding, cat trees, and scratching posts. Things to "own" which builds confidence.

Finally, I stay as calm and confident around them as possible. Cats take on our emotions so the more calm and confident we are the more they tend to be. And just let the cats know they are loved (which is easy because you obviously love them). We want to convey to Shady that everything is cool.

I am happy to help you through this so please share any information and ask any questions any time. The more confident a cat is the more likely they will accept another cat. This is common and we can get through this.

When bringing Shady down onto my bed what is the best way to distract Ziggy when he jumps up and starts hunting her? I’ve tried trailing some of his fav toys to distract him but he’s m

You are welcome.

Ok, given his reaction I really would like to take a step back and keep them totally separated including visual if at all possible. We will have to do positive association using scent and food etc while we build up their confidence (through play, food, height and love). And let's try to get Ziggy interested in hanging out in other places of the house as I mentioned in the prior message.

Maybe a screen door to allow the breeze? I don't know the setup but maybe gates in another part of the house that keep Ziggy away from the bedroom door?

We need to get them desensitized to each other and make a positive association.

So does Ziggy only go into hunt mode when Shady acts like prey? It is VERY common for a cat to see another cat act like prey (lack confidence, fear, etc) and then go after it. It is instinct. If we can build her confidence and build positive associations then she may stand up more and avoid any chase etc which then reinforces confidence and leads to less chasing and more acceptance. In other words, a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked.

So let's keep stepping up play to build confidence and feed after. And also build those positive associations using food and scent. Try to make every encounter as positive as possible distracting him as needed to avoid chases etc. As she builds more trust and confidence she will be less likely to run away from him and therefore he will be less likely to chase her and we can get into a positive positive feedback loop (positives build on positives).

We will get there. It will take some time and effort but there are enough positives that I am confident we can get them to get along.

Please let us know how things are going and please ask anything anytime. Always here for you.

I wanted to give you an update.
I bought Shady and Ziggy some new toys each and played with them both. I then swapped the toys and gave them to the opposite cat (for the scent) neither one minded. I always swap their food bowls too. It’s hard to keep Ziggy visually away from Shady when he’s in my bedroom. I’m going to have to get the gate eventually. I just tried playing with them simultaneously to distract both! I must’ve looked like a puppeteer!

I also held Ziggy in my arms closer to Shadys perch height and talked calmly to them both what le stroking Shady. Ziggy didn’t like that and acted very afraid strangely. Maybe because if he’s looking like he wants to try to jump up there I yell “no!!” He’s prob got a bad association....?

He’s managed to reach her perch once.

I was very happy that while I was holding Ziggy nearer to her she didn’t stop rubbing her face on my hand and her scratching post and purring. She didn’t care that I was holding him. He did care though.

There isn’t any place to put up a gate other than my bedroom door. The next room is a small living room/kitchen. I will build some shelves for Ziggy to climb near the window, maybe put up a bird feeder like you suggested.

Thanks again!
Leah

 

[calicosrspecial]

Play usually is the best way to distract. If play doesn't work then calling their name in a firm but not yelling tone is good. I also then tell them "it's ok" in a softer reassuring tone. If that doesn't work grab a pillow to block the site. Or use a treat (if they are food motivated). Ultimately when she builds more trust and confidence he'll think "I am not going to mess with her" other than to play but that will be down the road.

It is great that they played with the new toys. I personally would keep the toys separate as long as they continue playing with them. I am not too worried but I just don't want to get a hunting/other cat scent association. I don't think it is a big risk though.

Playing together with them is something I actually do. But we have to watch how they react. I do it because it helps them build a bond together and be near each other building confidence and enjoying themselves. But if you sense any negativity then end it on a positive note before it turns into a negative. Typically I start of playing separately and then down the road I play together but it depends on where the cats are. Where their confidence is etc. The fact yours played alongside each other is a great positive.

I think it is a bit early to have them get close to each other. I actually do that in my intros but again a little later down the road. It really is art, we want to make sure the encounter is positive. I think he reacted negatively because he felt vulnerable being held (so therefore not able to escape) even though we think it would be more protective. And I am guessing she was above him which is also a scary position for a cat. Height gives confidence and being below a potential threat can be disconcerting. And it does suggest that he still is unsure of her and therefore his fear of her and a little lack of confidence is causing him to have a more offensive position to protect himself.

I am really happy to hear that she was fine with him near. That combined with the fact that she does act confident a lot of the time tells me that it actually is more him than her. As I mentioned above, his insecurity may be causing him to be more offensive to deal with the fear than running away. So play with him and building his confidence should help as will distracting. If we can get him to look away from her (and her not attacking him) then it is a big positive because no cat would look away from a potential threat.

There are a lot of positives so the question is not "if" they will get along but "when". Just keep building their confidence (play and food) and keep making their encounters as positive as possible (distract as needed). Give him warm and comfy places to hang out, look out etc. Stay calm and confident around them as the more we are the more they will be.

Please let me know if you have any questions as there is a lot here and it is not easy to explain. You are doing a great job, keep up the great work.

 

[ziggyandshade]

Play usually is the best way to distract. If play doesn't work then calling their name in a firm but not yelling tone is good. I also then tell them "it's ok" in a softer reassuring tone. If that doesn't work grab a pillow to block the site. Or use a treat (if they are food motivated). Ultimately when she builds more trust and confidence he'll think "I am not going to mess with her" other than to play but that will be down the road.

It is great that they played with the new toys. I personally would keep the toys separate as long as they continue playing with them. I am not too worried but I just don't want to get a hunting/other cat scent association. I don't think it is a big risk though.

Playing together with them is something I actually do. But we have to watch how they react. I do it because it helps them build a bond together and be near each other building confidence and enjoying themselves. But if you sense any negativity then end it on a positive note before it turns into a negative. Typically I start of playing separately and then down the road I play together but it depends on where the cats are. Where their confidence is etc. The fact yours played alongside each other is a great positive.

I think it is a bit early to have them get close to each other. I actually do that in my intros but again a little later down the road. It really is art, we want to make sure the encounter is positive. I think he reacted negatively because he felt vulnerable being held (so therefore not able to escape) even though we think it would be more protective. And I am guessing she was above him which is also a scary position for a cat. Height gives confidence and being below a potential threat can be disconcerting. And it does suggest that he still is unsure of her and therefore his fear of her and a little lack of confidence is causing him to have a more offensive position to protect himself.

I am really happy to hear that she was fine with him near. That combined with the fact that she does act confident a lot of the time tells me that it actually is more him than her. As I mentioned above, his insecurity may be causing him to be more offensive to deal with the fear than running away. So play with him and building his confidence should help as will distracting. If we can get him to look away from her (and her not attacking him) then it is a big positive because no cat would look away from a potential threat.

There are a lot of positives so the question is not "if" they will get along but "when". Just keep building their confidence (play and food) and keep making their encounters as positive as possible (distract as needed). Give him warm and comfy places to hang out, look out etc. Stay calm and confident around them as the more we are the more they will be.
Please let me know if you have any questions as there is a lot here and it is not easy to explain. You are doing a great job, keep up the great work.

Thanks again. This is such useful info. I will print out our correspondence and make sure Im going by the rules
I will report the progress we make.
You have been a lifesaver!

 

[calicosrspecial]

You are welcome.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

We really just want to build trust between them and let them know the other doesn't want to hurt them and make positive associations and make every encounter as positive as possible to reassure them that the other cat doesn't mean harm.

Don't worry, we will get things to work out. Keep up the great work. Always here for you.