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Can you actually "create" a breed???

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
After reading the story of how Bombays came to light...it started with that woman nikki horrner or something or other... how do you actually create a breed?? not only create it but have it become reconized? Thats actually amazing to me!
post #2 of 24
I've been wondering about this too. Let's say that someone decided to make polydactlys a breed. What would they have to do/prove in order to make that happen?
post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaclyn4238 View Post
it started with that woman nikki horrner or something or other...
No I think it started with a cat!

No for real though, it takes years and years and generations and lots of close study and understanding of genetics and the history of cats in general and the cats they are breeding and everything. That is part of the reason why people have problems with it because many of the people claiming to do this new breed creating now-a-days are simply in it for the money and don't put all this time and money and effort into it.
post #4 of 24
It also takes a while for the governing bodies to recognise and register a breed even when you think you've created a new one, with the breed gaining provisional status first then full status later (provided the governing body are satisfied there are no health/genetic reasons why the breed should not be recognised). There's no guarantee that the breed will actually be accepted.
post #5 of 24
I agree. To get the idea it is often enough with one cat yes. This found and saved pregnant she-moggie from the story... Or possibly two.
But to develop a stabile breed is something different and much more wide.

One aspect too is all these kittens not suitable for the programme you get during the development-work, say between 50 - 99%. If you dont want to kill off perfectly healthy kittens you must find them homes. Ie you must know a lot of cat-loving peoples... Besides those you must know to cooperate with the breeding work.

A breeder of a recognised breed do also have this problem. But hers kittens ARE certified purebreed, so it isnt too difficult to sell them for a lower price as pedigree pets as long they are healthy and mentally sound. And they usually are.

But breed-unsuitable kittens from an unrecognised breed are "only" moggies...
post #6 of 24
So taking my example of the polydactlys, what would someone have to do? I assume having a male and female with extra toes. Maybe some other standards they want this 'new breed' to have. Then they breed them to see if it 'breeds true', right? Do a certain percentage of the kittens have to show the trait to prove it?
post #7 of 24
Basically in a nutshell yes. But there is so much more to it. It takes years and years to create a breed. It isn't just going to be a one shot deal and either it will work or won't. Plus the cats need to be health certified and tested for all sorts of genetic things and you would need to know the entire line of cats you are using to create this breed. They would have to be excellent examples of their breed and you would need to know the genetics of them (I think I said that one already). You couldn't just take any two random moggies who are polydactyls and create a breed just like that.
post #8 of 24
Creating a breed is a time consuming effort (years) and takes a lot of money too. You would have to find homes for all the kittens that do not exhibit the desired traits.

You have to know genetics to know what is dominate/recessive genes and if any of these genes might be lethal (like with manx - tailless to tailless will cause deformities or death).

You would have to have consistant traits for 8 or more generations to set the type, etc.

After you have desired traits locked in, then you have to have several other people that will establish a breeding program with you (one person can't just create the breed and have it accepted). Then you would have to petition associations and ask for your new breed to be accepted as "experimental". In the meantime, you need a written standard to judge the cats, the reason why this should be a different breed, how it is different from already accepted breeds in the association. You need a lot of background info in creating and history too.

If you pass all of the associations requirements for the new breed, then you have to have a certain amount of cats and people who will show them and work with the judges on standards. You have to maintain your BEST examples of the breeds and point out any faults.

The entire process can take a few years to more then 10 yrs depending on how many are interested in this new breed. Its NOT an easy process and its not always successful either. Associations for the most part are NOT quick to accept new breeds.

The biggest problem is dealing with the "rejects" in your breeding program - they all have to be spayed/neutered and placed into homes.
post #9 of 24
Now if the trait does breed true, it would be considered a mutation, whereas if it didn't breed true it would be considered a 'defect'. I use the word defect for lack of a better word. It isn't to imply that the trait is a harmful or bad thing. Just an accident of nature to the one cat, but not to it's offspring. Do I have that correct?

Thank you for your answers, this is very interesting.

Are there examples that you know of where someone has tried to get a new breed introduced and failed?
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
This is VERY interesting! I wonder what breeds people have tired but failed at creating? it sounds weird to say "creating" a breed i feel like im talking about building a robot or something
post #11 of 24
In rexes, there was a mutation in Oregon - called an "Oregon Rex" but there was little interest in it.

Another is the occasional longhair cornish rex. I know of 3 of them. I saw one - a white one in Pennsylvania show. IMO it was ugly and I can see why no one wanted to continue breeding them as a coat varient of the cornish. Imagine a rag mop - because you can't comb out the cat right and the long fur looked matted all the time - not a pretty picture.

It occurs once in a great while - in the background of the cornish there was an "oops" litter where a persian bred one of the rexes. In certain lines if the longhair gene hooks up in the mom and dad's side, you can get a longhair rex - its very rare, but it happens.

One person that had it happen, her mother adopted the rex and just keeps the coat shaved down to avoid grooming.
post #12 of 24
I can't think of any that have failed but certain organizations accept more breeds than others. The bengal is an exampe of a breed that is not recognized by the CFA but is recognized by TICA and ACFA. Toygers, Pantherettes, Savannahs and Serengeti's are still in heavy development. Cheetoh's and puppycats are in development (both I believe but not sure are experimental breeds). Both of these breeds have some issues so will they be accepted eventually? Hard to tell. There are many many breeds right now that are trying to be created.
post #13 of 24
Puppycats?
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynn View Post
Puppycats?
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006...1906192121.txt
post #15 of 24
I am strongly uncomfortable with the gal breeding pupkats - re the breeds she's crossing. Her comments on what "breeders" do refers more to backyard or very ignorant breeders, versus the professionals she's referring to, imo.

I don't trust that somehow, just she, knows best re the breeds she's using which have real issues concerning their genetics that have to be well understood before breeding them. She's not listening to folks who've bred manx or folds for years....from what I saw on her website.
post #16 of 24
There are lot of cats with the traits she mentioned. My cat follows me from room to room. Bengals play fetch. You already have Scottish Folds with the floppy ears. I guess I don't see what she is trying to create. Other then the ears it doesn't look any different then any other cat.
post #17 of 24
I feel uncomfortable with the idea of puppycats. As Telynn says, there are already breeds that can be quite dog like, but deliberately creating a dog like breed seems wrong. If you want a dog get a dog, not a dog like cat. I can't help wondering whether those who would go for a puppycat will appreciate and respect the fact that they have a cat, or whether they really want a dog.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaclyn4238 View Post
This is VERY interesting! I wonder what breeds people have tired but failed at creating? it sounds weird to say "creating" a breed i feel like im talking about building a robot or something
There are several rexed breeds that haven't gained enough interest: California Rex, Pennsylvania Rex, Connecticut Rex and Ohio Rex.

I don't know what happened to the Californa Spangled? It was developed and then what?

Personally I have mixed feelings about people trying to create new breeds. Maybe you don't have the same problem in the US but in Europe most of the already existing breeds have extremely small gene pools so I think the energy should bed focused on already existing breeds.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
so if this lady created the puppycat by finding the ones with the folded over ears in a liter of strays that she rescued...wouldnt she have to bred one of the kittens with either its mother of father..that is inbreeding or am i wrong
post #20 of 24
It is inbreeding. But if its a recessive trait you have to do a certain amount of inbreeding. However, you also have to be VERY knowledgable on genetics too.

The cornish rex was a natural mutation. A kitten with a really curly coat showed up in a litter of barn cats in England. Because it was different, it was kept and bred back to his mother. More rexes came from that litter. But that doesn't mean you go and keep repeating it. Once you found out it was recessive, you can get other cats involved and then start back crossing a little at a time till you get consistency.

In our cornish rex club, people submitted old pedigrees so we could trace our cats back to Kallibunker. It was interesting (to say the least) on the development and how the cats connected.

In early development the breed was almost lost because there was not enough outside typey cats to add. So when a few were shipped over here, those cats were bred to siamese and orientals. My 15 yr old rex is about 10 or 12 genereations from the original (breed was started in 1950).

But dedicated breeders with knowledge of genetics were the ones that took the time to keep the breed alive.



Because its known about the letal genes of taillessness (manx) and the scottish folds ears, anyone that is breeding those cats in close inbreeding better be aware of the dangers! And also, you can't "create" a breed by mixing a bunch of cats together and keeping letal genes apart! Scottish fold people know that you don't put 2 folded together, but you still can have type. Same with manx breeds. I question too on what she thinks she is creating - its just another mixed breed cat - nothing consistant at all. And BTW rexes (cornish and devon) have a LOT of "dog-like traits" too! My son owned a 1/2 devon rex that we taught to lay down on command before he got to chase the ball and he brought it right back. A lot of my cornish are good "heelers" too Cornish are also very sociable, people-loving cats that demand attention.

All of my cats (mixed, cornish, russian blue) also came when their name is called - that's just stupidity to think that cats ignore their names. Dogs sometimes ignore their names too
post #21 of 24
Sounds to me that other then the floppy ears (which a breed already has) she is trying to create a breed based on non-physical charatersists. Most breeds have some defining physical difference. No hair, no tail, ancestors of the Leopard cat, big furry mane, flat face, long face. And in my hypothetical new breed, more toes. I would think it would be very hard for a judge to rate a cat in a cat show based on how 'dog-like' it acts.
post #22 of 24
My trouble with her is she IS BYB ... she seems to be breeding moggie to moogie without any knowledge of what traits they do carry... My Zoey is ver very dog like she sits comes lays down stays all on command , I think it is great but no way would I just breed to get something other than a cat whose breed pure traits//
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
My trouble with her is she IS BYB ... she seems to be breeding moggie to moogie without any knowledge of what traits they do carry... My Zoey is ver very dog like she sits comes lays down stays all on command , I think it is great but no way would I just breed to get something other than a cat whose breed pure traits//
Heck, American Curls have been described as dog like..they fetch, they can be taught commands, and do their best to open doors Alix is quite good at opening any door with a middle hinge!
post #24 of 24
And many cornish rex breeders (including me) describe the cats as "built like a greyhound (tuck up), coat like a poodle (curly) and dog-like in following you around.

I have NO idea where that breeder has been, but there are tons of cats out there that have dog-like traits. Who is she kidding?
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