Open discussion for Breeders

Interesting debate! I'm not a breeder although I would like to breed Somalis and/or Abyssinians one day. I currently have 1 rescue cat (used to have 2) and 1 pure bred (a Somali). I'm a great fan of the humble moggie and appreciate the efforts of those are active in rescue. I'll almost certainly have another rescue cat(s) at some point but I don't think people should be prevented from breeding pure bred cats (or from buying them) due to the irresponsibility of other people who don't neuter their cats (either through laziness, ignorance or that "cats should have 1 litter" attitude). If there were no pure bred cats that would just encourage these people and give them some justification for producing more kittens. It seems like a losing battle to get these people to neuter their cats and I don't know what the answer is but that's where the battle needs to be fought - not by preventing the responsible ones from producing kittens.

Originally Posted by booktigger

I did have to shout at my comp yesterday as someone from another forum has been offered two 'Burmapuras' .

Click to expand...

I post on that forum too and you weren't the only one shouting at your computer! It's not so much the fact that the mating occured as the name 'burmapuras'. There do seem to be more and more new breeds emerging as every mutation and accidental mating produces a cat that someone wants to turn into a new breed. I'm not against progress and new breeds being produced but some of these breeds do seem very similar and I wonder whether it's necessary or beneficial. But as I said at the start, I'm not a breeder so what do I know. Incidentally on that same forum there was recently a post from someone whose cat had just had kittens. She was adamant that every cat she had would have 2 litters of kittens before being spayed. Now that really made me shout at my computer. That's what needs to change. But I don't know how to change it.

Actually Kai, I would disagree with you about pedigrees not ending up in rescues - the rescue I foster for is only small and has had at least 3 Persians in the last year, plus one who never got to us as he was too poorly when handed in to the vets - even the vet passed comment on the amount of pedigrees she sees that are mistreated. I also know of Maine Coons and Norwegian Forests that ended up in a rescue as the lady couldn't get hold of the breeder - they were unneutered and complete with papers, and one rescue lady is currently looking for a home for a purebred Havana who is FIV+. And in the UK, we have a lot of breed specific rescues, and our Bengal ones are in a similar position to the ones in the US where they have more cats than they can take in.
Urbantigers - yeah, it was the name that bothered me more, accidents can happen. that also made me shout at the comp, and I think the only way to stop it is for rescues to be able to do pediatric spay and neuter, but that wont affect every kitten homed.

Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom

I do not believe that purebred cat don't end up in shelters because it's not true. Maybe you're saying that yours don't but you can't actually guarantee that either-- yes, you say you'll take them back but not everyone is going to call you instead of dumping it because they'll be afraid you'll be mad at them or they're embarrassed or whatever else. Unless you personally check on every cat you've ever bred at least once a year you can make no claims that every cat you've ever placed is still in its forever home because you don't know. Making someone sign a contract does probably help a little but if you think none of your cats have ever ended up in a shelter you're in denial or else just being naive. I'm sure its painful to think about, but that's part of purposefully breeding cats. Purebred cats do end up in shelters. Often, when you look at "Available for adoption" pages you will see one or two-- but even more often if you look at the "Recently adopted" pages you will see even more. It's not that they aren't ending up there, it's that they get adopted faster. Why else would breed rescues exist at all?

My biggest problem with it is that is the same breath as saying that people without purebreds should have them spayed even if they've accidentally gotten pregnant-- and there are good people who really do have accidents, like falling out of a screened window, etc-- you say that you have a right to breed cats continually and on purpose because of what the cats look like and sometimes act like. Maybe I just can't wrap my head around the idea of a certain type of genes making a cat inherently better. You know, if we applied that idea to humans, what would it be called? To me, every cat is beautiful and every cat deserves a good home, and purposefully breeding them precludes it.

I'm not really sure of the point of this discussion though, because nobody's going to change their mind. I know none of you are going to stop breeding.

Click to expand...

Excellent post.

And, actually, Kai, the big Internation Bengal Cat Society or whatever...their rescue network is FILLED and they cannot accept any more because there are no foster homes and no one is adopting.

I'm not saying to wipe out all purebreeds. I'm saying that when you purposefully breed cats you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.
You keep saying that moggies exist only through irresponsibility but that purebreds exist only through responisbility and that is not true.

I also think would should stop blaming people and start fixing it, but you have to stop blaming everyone with a moggy who gets pregnant on accident and immediately spays afterward and starting taking some of the responsibility yourself. Saying that cat overpopulation is solely the fault of people who are not breeders allowing their cats to get pregnant is a cop out for the amount of responsibility you, as a breeder, share in the problem.

And we're never going to agree on it until you see your cats as cats instead of some higher form of cats or I see purebreds as some "more worthy" form of cats. Cats are cats.


edit:

I was thinking about it, and maybe we need to revise our idea of what a responsible breeder is. For instance, on top of the standards like not doing it for the money, genetic testing, excellent vet and nutrition care, contracts with the buyers regarding never declawing, the cats not leaving until they've been s/n'ed, perhaps we should be adding on. A responsible breeder should be one who accepts the responsibility they share in the cat overpopulation and homelessness problem and do something about it besides just say that its not their fault. It's more a change of ideas than anything. And there are breeders on this board who do just that. Working with a breed rescue would be just a good start-- you already care for the breed so much, so why not expand it to all cats of that breed?

Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom

You keep saying that moggies exist only through irresponsibility but that purebreds exist only through responisbility

Click to expand...

Not quite but I don't think that's a million miles from the truth. Of course purebred breeders aren't all responsible. When I talk about "breeders" I tend to mean those that are affiliated to an organisation that has a code of ethics re breeding and homing kittens. Anyone can get hold of a pure bred and breed it irresponsibly. Any mating that isn't controlled and where you don't know the health and temperament of both parents (and preferably previous generations) so that you can ensure there are no health issues being passed on constitutes irresponsible breeding imo. It makes no difference whether the cat concerned is a pure bred or a moggy. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't almost all moggies the result of accidental and unplanned matings? If so they do exist through irresponsiblility. While some pure breds also exist through irresponsibility a lot don't.

Originally Posted by Zissou'sMom

I also think would should stop blaming people and start fixing it, but you have to stop blaming everyone with a moggy who gets pregnant on accident and immediately spays afterward and starting taking some of the responsibility yourself.

Click to expand...

I agree that blaming people isnt' very productive but anyone with a moggy who gets pregnant by accident is at fault and can be blamed for contributing to the over poplulation. Anyone who has a kitten has a responsibility to have a certain knowledge about cats - specifically the age at which they become sexually active and how they can prevent the cat from getting pregnant (and why they should do so).

What I'm really trying to say is this. When I got my Somali kitten it was from a responsible breeder. By that I mean the breeder is a member of the Somali cat club, which is affiliated to the GCCF, and shows the mother in GCCF shows. The mother was obtained from a more experienced Somali breeder (who I met at a show - that's how I ended up getting this kitten) whose cats have done very well at shows and the father is a champion. The mating was planned and attention was paid to health and temperament as well as type. 4 kittens were produced. They were kept by the breeder until 13 weeks, as per GCCF guidelines and I brought home at 14 weeks of age a healthy, well socialised, vaccinated kitten complete with advice sheet (feeding etc), GCCF notes on bringing up kittens etc. , adoption contract, pedigree papers etc. I am in regular contact with the breeder and send them pictures of the kitten. The breeder has just the one breeding queen and they don't intend to have another litter from her until next year as she lost quite a bit of weight following the birth of this litter. They will make sure she's in perfect health, and also dont' believe in producing litters every 5 minutes. The point is this - if all kittens were produced in this manner I don't think there would be an over poplulation of cats, at least not to the extent we have now. And I don't see how stopping people like this from breeding will do much to help the overpopulation since most cats in shelters are moggies and the result of unintentional matings.

First, read my edited post below.

I've said before that my opinion has nothing to do with how individual people do things. Your friend sounds like an excellent breeder, and you're right, if every kindle was created in such a way we wouldn't have a problem. But we do. And since we do have a problem, it doesn't make much sense to be so excited about every new purebred kitten and so angry about every new moggy kitten when there is no difference between the two aside from how the mom got pregnant-- on accident or on purpose. The fact that breeders are responsible breeders has no impact on my opinion at all. Your friends are doing it the way they're supposed to be doing it, right? Nothing extraordinary about that. I care for my moggy the way I'm supposed to and nobody gives me any awards.

Obviously the largest contributor to the problem is the BYBers and the people who let their cats breed just for kicks or whatever stupid reason they have for not getting a cat s/n (and I for one don't accept the lack of money excuse because I could use it too, but didn't). However, they are either totally ignorant or else complete blockheads, and they aren't on this forum either. The battle is really against them, and trust me, when I encounter someone who acts like this I let them know how I feel. But, the responsible breeders on this board are intelligent, actually care about cats, etc, so it's more likely that you guys can be convinced to change your attitude about what you are doing and while still doing what you've dedicated your life to doing you can also help lessen the impact of it. Sort of like how companies in some countries who cut down all the trees have to come back in and replant what they destroyed. You are helping the problem, but if you also help the solution then it would balance out.

Originally Posted by sharky

My trouble currently is how many ferals and how to trap and s/n them all ... I think this is a HUGE issue that at least where I live is not getting much attention....

I know there is a huge over population and do and will continue to rescue .... I will also state that I will own purebred animals as I like the traits and do like to know what I am getting .... My last two shelter animals were not what I went for but I LOVE them more than anything....

There are ways to reduce populations but most people I think are looking at the wrong end of it ....

Click to expand...

Sharky....TNR has only been in existance for 10 years....before that people would either simply ignore the feral cat population or trap and kill them. Lots of progress has been made but certainly feral cats need more assistance, they had a heck of a head start and we are now trying to do our best to reduce their numbers humanely. Best advice I can give you is to contact Alley Cat Allies to find out exactly what feral organizations are in your state and then..GET INVOLVED. I volunteer at a feral cat clinic and every month it is such a wonderful thing to see these cats receive the spaying/neutering they deserve.

http://www.alleycat.org/

http://www.alleycat.org/orgs.html

Every feral cat that is fixed..is one less breeding outdoor cat.

Katie

Originally Posted by Mihoshi

My shelter experience is that they will lie and call a cat a purebred this or half that - and it's simply a guess. I have no doubt that there are purebreds that end up there, but comparitavely, it's a very small piece of the pie.

Click to expand...

I don't think that shelters are lying as much as they just don't know....I've even had adoptors tell me that a particuliar cat was a "purebred mix" just by looks alone. Everyone wants to label cats by breed when I think it is more important to label cats by their personality versus their "pedigree or lack there of". It is one pet peeve I have about petfinder.

Interestingly enough...I believe that as we get better control on the moggie/feral/stray population, there will be more purebreds in shelters....perhaps not from any of the breeders here..but there does seem to be an active purebred BYB business out there who do not offer the same assurances or require spaying/neutering.

Katie

Originally Posted by booktigger

Actually Kai, I would disagree with you about pedigrees not ending up in rescues - the rescue I foster for is only small and has had at least 3 Persians in the last year, plus one who never got to us as he was too poorly when handed in to the vets - even the vet passed comment on the amount of pedigrees she sees that are mistreated. I also know of Maine Coons and Norwegian Forests that ended up in a rescue as the lady couldn't get hold of the breeder - they were unneutered and complete with papers, and one rescue lady is currently looking for a home for a purebred Havana who is FIV+. And in the UK, we have a lot of breed specific rescues, and our Bengal ones are in a similar position to the ones in the US where they have more cats than they can take in.

Click to expand...

Well, I didn't say they never end up in shelters, I said it was rare. If you got 3 Persians in one year, that's very rare in comparison to all the domestics. I think it's important to look at the numbers of breed cats versus the vast number of domestics that are in shelters. There is a huge huge difference.

Originally Posted by lionessrampant

Well, I think everyone here knows how I feel about breeding and births by now...

I don't think we should be bringing any kittens into the world at this point. Any. Really, until we solve the problem of all the existing cats who are living destitute lives due to our vanity and irresponsibility, we have absolutely no business breeding new ones. I say this a lot: my dream cat is a blue-pont ragdoll or a look-alike, but I won't own one in this lifetime. Because of the damage we people have done, WE are the ones responsible for fixing it. Adopting older standard breed domestics with behavioral or medical issues making them hard to adopt is therefore close to my heart. It's a labor of love. And yes, you're darn skippy we have a cultural issue. People are selfish and irresponsible and unaccountable and flakey and vain and unable to commit to things, and that's why we have the issues we do. Adopt your cat from a shelter or rescue it, keep your cat inside, make sure its fixed, and make sure that you keep that cat for its whole lifetime come hell or high water.

Yes, I wish all breeders would rescue 3 sheter cats for every kitten they birth. Yes, I wish everyone with an accidentally pregnant cat would spay. And as much as this is really making me sort of hated around these parts, I can't really change my position. I see far too much carnage to do that. And I think if more people spent time doing what I do and seeing what I see, they'd think differently.

Click to expand...

Ok...I'm a realist....even if we were to stop all breeding in the USA...people would go to Mexico and other countries...and if we stopped the ethical breeders, then we would just be encouraging more unethical breeders to fill the gap. I don't believe that people who are dead set on a kitten are going to go and adopt an adult, I don't believe that people who are dead set on a Bengal or a Siamese are going to adopt a moggie. We need to stop the whole breeder versus rescue finger pointing with regards to the overpopulation...it's old and tired and gets us nowhere. To reduce the numbers...we need to attack the source....and frankly, I would be looking first at the shelters and rescues to step up to the plate and spay/neuter EVERY animal BEFORE it goes into a home. We can't exactly be pointing fingers at breeders or people who have accidentally had a cat become pregnant when we ourselves allow intact animals to leave our hands. Spay contracts are no good when a cat gets out before it is 6 months of age and before the spay date and becomes pregnant. It just doesn't work...and pediatric spay/neuter has been around long enough that it should be embraced and utilized at the shelter/rescue level. Additionally, we need more people helping with TNR to address the feral cat population. A fixed feral cat is a non-breeding feral cat. Arguments about who should and shouldn't be breeding fall mute in the face of so many intact cats...whether they be stray/feral or domesticated tabbies or purebreds. Address the source...you address the overpopulation.

Katie

"Well, I didn't say they never end up in shelters, I said it was rare. If you got 3 Persians in one year, that's very rare in comparison to all the domestics. I think it's important to look at the numbers of breed cats versus the vast number of domestics that are in shelters. There is a huge huge difference."

Then we also need to look at proportions. There are considerably more moggies in the US than there are purebreds. Looking at numbers alone is pointless unless 50% of cats are purebred and 50% of cats are moggies. Which isn't true. What percentage of cats in America are purebred? What percentage of cats in shelters are purebred? I'm going to bet that the actual proportions are closer than the numbers, and by far.

In Lebanon, where I'm from, owning pet cats is something thats generally done by the upper-middle class. They tend to buy the "best" of everything and pedigree cats are what they want. When they do get this cat and fall in love with him/her I have noticed a trend of then adopting a stray from outside getting them neutered and vaccinated with both kitties being treated equally. Now I am not commenting on other countries but it seems like pedigree cats have given moggies a chance for a home in Lebanon.
Strays are treated humanly from what I have seen looking plump from being fed left-overs by diners and waiters. There is also a great TNR program at the American University of Beirut.

Originally Posted by lionessrampant

Excellent post.

And, actually, Kai, the big Internation Bengal Cat Society or whatever...their rescue network is FILLED and they cannot accept any more because there are no foster homes and no one is adopting.

Click to expand...

Just some FYI

The international bengal cat society, TIBCS, is not a rescue. There is a Bengal rescue network, mostly comprised of bengal breeders and owners, who rescue and find homes for bengals in need. I'm a member of many bengal related forums and lists and there is no major problem, but as always the call does go out occasionally for people to foster while bengals find new homes. We do take care of our own and on this bengal issue, I think you are misinformed. Probably by a post that was made several weeks ago on this forum, that I recall seeing.

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

Just some FYI

The international bengal cat society, TIBCS, is not a rescue. There is a Bengal rescue network, mostly comprised of bengal breeders and owners, who rescue and find homes for bengals in need. I'm a member of many bengal related forums and lists and there is no major problem, but as always the call does go out occasionally for people to foster while bengals find new homes. We do take care of our own and on this bengal issue, I think you are misinformed. Probably by a post that was made several weeks ago on this forum, that I recall seeing.

Click to expand...

So does someone keep tabs of the number of Bengals on Petfinder?? Realizing that they all may not even have Bengal in them..but for those that ARE purebreds...does the TIBCS keep an eye on the situation?

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=3&type=Cat

Katie

Originally Posted by TNR1

Spay contracts are no good when a cat gets out before it is 6 months of age and before the spay date and becomes pregnant. It just doesn't work...and pediatric spay/neuter has been around long enough that it should be embraced and utilized at the shelter/rescue level.
Katie

Click to expand...

This is an excellent point. My question is, how do we get the Vets to learn this procedure. Nearly all of them in my area are reluctant to learn how to do pediatric alters. Is it that difficult or a dangerous procedure? I think not.
I think the Vets need to get on board with this as well. I have been suggesting to our Vets for quite some time that I would like to see all my kittens altered at 12 weeks prior to leaving for their new homes. Still running into a roadblock. The contract, holding back registration papers and follow-up's is working, but a rock solid guarantee of an altered kitten would be best.

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for their comments and opinions. This is an important subject to discuss and debate and we all have different thoughts and opinions that span the spectrum.
This subject is heated to say the least, so let's all stay civil so the Moderators will let this important thread live.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

This is an excellent point. My question is, how do we get the Vets to learn this procedure. Nearly all of them in my area are reluctant to learn how to do pediatric alters. Is it that difficult or a dangerous procedure? I think not.
I think the Vets need to get on board with this as well. I have been suggesting to our Vets for quite some time that I would like to see all my kittens altered at 12 weeks prior to leaving for their new homes. Still running into a roadblock. The contract, holding back registration papers and follow-up's is working, but a rock solid guarantee of an altered kitten would be best.

Click to expand...

I think many vets are reluctant simply because they haven't seen the procedure performed...but fortunately the vets that our rescue works with does perform spaying/neutering as early as 8 weeks of age. And those kittens bounce back from the procedure as if nothing was done.

Katie

Okay, to try and hit some of the things that were raised to my own posts. I did not say that pedigree breeders were all responsible - in fact I said on the first post of page 2 that both sides have too many irresponsible people. Far too many see breeding as a right they have, or a money maker. I'm trying to say that the people making a sencere effort to promote a breed should not be penelized for those who are unethical or irresponsible. Part of an ethical breeders cattery should be understanding the pet overpopulation from all sides and taking this into extreme consideration before producing more kittens. Now, if everyone stops breeding, then we stop our contribution to the pet overpopulation, but those breeds will be forced to die out. It's not A or B, we need both sides to find a middle ground and work towards it.

And, with my expierence with shelters, and again I can't speak for every one that exists, it's not that they simply don't know the breed (which they don't), but that they are fully aware that if they call a solid white cat "half siamese" then 10 times the amount of prospecitive homes will look at that cat. Breed names are buzz words in shelters. I can't really say that I condem the action as it does help the cats find more homes on average, but this does make breeders look terrible and promotes and fuels anti-breeder sentiment. Who knows what that white cat's background is, but everyone who reads "half siamese" is going to assume that some kitten mill sold the Siamese parent to an unscreened owner to make a profit - there isn't much positive enforcement for us with this. Then the HSUS claims that anywhere from 25-50% of animals in shelters are purebred - but what they don't tell you is that this number is based on the shelters guesses and asumptions and no proof is involved.

I also agree with the pediatric spay/neuter for shelters and rescues. What I truly hate is when a rescuer points a finger and says the breeders are the problem, but then they allow unaltered cats into various homes. How are we the soul problem in these cases? Everyone seems to want to label fault, which spreads anger, and then nothing changes because we're at war with each other. I respect and sympathize with both parties, and if I were smarter I would come up with a solution to push everyone to work towards a future where shelters are a rarely needed thing.

this does make breeders look terrible and promotes and fuels anti-breeder sentiment. Who knows what that white cat's background is, but everyone who reads "half siamese" is going to assume that some kitten mill sold the Siamese parent to an unscreened owner to make a profit - there isn't much positive enforcement for us with this. Then the HSUS claims that anywhere from 25-50% of animals in shelters are purebred - but what they don't tell you is that this number is based on the shelters guesses and asumptions and no proof is involved.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your conclusion that listing a cat as a purebred mix fuels the anti-breeder sentiments....what does is all the "siamese kittens $600" posts that you find on every free board that exists. Rescue accounts for less than 20% of the animals acquired...yet, we must be ready to take in the unwanted christmas gift pets etc. Can you blame rescue for being irritated by this??

It also seems to me that some registrations (not so much for cats but DEFINATELY for dogs) are only there to take the money and run. I pass by a house every day on my way home from work and 4 times a year they put up a sign that reads "AKC labs for sale" and they put out a big puppy pen in the front yard. There seems to be a perception by the general public that having "AKC" means that these animals are kept in better conditions...which is not necessarily the truth.

As far as the HSUS claim regarding purebred animals in shelters...there are some shelters around puppy/kitten mills that do have a majority of purebred animals...they may not come from ethical breeders...but they are purebreds. Ever watch a raid on a puppymill?? That can quickly add a LOT of purebreds all at once.

In the end...it will take all sides working together to find solutions.

Katie

I really think my suggestion a few posts down is a compromise. Expanding the criteria for being a responsible breeder to also include realizing that breeders share some responsibility in the pet overpopulation and taking that into account by also working with a breed rescue, perhaps making donations to shelters or spay/neuter programs (I know this would be less realistic because you're not in it for the money and barely have any extra, but how about 10$ per adopted kitten or even just sending along some info on local shelters and such. If you claim that people who buy purebreds wouldn't consider a moggy, then this doesn't threaten your business at all), helping out with TNR programs, volunteering in a shelter a couple hours a week-they could certainly use your expertise and you could help them with the labeling of cats as half purebred that you are discussing- etc. We do have to work together. I have an adopted cat at a local shelter that I pay money for every month that I can't afford, (and an otter at the Cleveland Zoo, how cool is that!) Zissou is spayed and never had kittens, I tell everyone who will listen to me to spay/neuter their cats and have helped a few people do it, I worked in the store that is a non-profit for the animal shelter back home for a summer when I was 18. And I in no way whatsoever contribute to the overpopulation problem. What I am asking breeders to do is realize that they play a small part in the problem, and stop saying that there are others who play a bigger part. That is true. But you can do something about yourself, not the BYBers and irresponsible pet owners. Everyone who has a cat that is not neutered before sexual maturity and manages to get outside, who is not spayed and gets pregnant, who buys kittens from mills or pet stores (obviously excluding programs through shelters like at Petsmart etc) shares responsibility for pet overpopulation. But so do breeders as well.

edited- I realized it sounds like I meant you have to do all of those things. They're just suggestions for ways to go about it, like a pick one or create your own sort of thing. Doing all of those would be absurd. Though awesome!