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What Breed/What Mix? Russian Blue? - Page 2  

post #31 of 52
It is safe to say that if a cat has any other cats besides Russian Blues anywhere in the linage, the cat cannot be correctly and accurately referred to as anything other than a Domestic Shorthair no matter what he looks like. He could look like the Distinguished Grand Merit Champion Russian Blue and still NOT be anything but a Domestic Shorthaired Cat.

I cannot fault anyone for trying to defend a breed standard, which is what I see happening in this conflict. However, that now being said, requesting a determination of breed when no pedigree is available is pretty much pulling rabbits out of hats. Without a clearly defined pedigree, there is no possible way to know what cats are in any line and without knowing that, there is no possible way to determine the actual breed of the cat. Even if one of the parents was a pedigreed cat, if the other parent was a moggy, then the resulting kittens are moggies. No matter that they look like a duck, they walk like a duck and they quack like a duck. They aren't ducks. They are Domestic Shorthair (or Longhair) cats.
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeresMom
Like I said, I know TECHNICALLY once a Russian Blue mates with another breed it's offspring are not longer Russian Blues - but that would not change the fact that the kittens are indeed part Russian Blue.
While it doesn't change the fact that the offspring have a Russian Blue parent, you still cannot call the offspring a "Russian Blue Mix" ... there is no such thing as a Russian Blue Mix, just like there is no such thing as a Siamese Mix or a Persian mix or any other (Insert Breed) Mix. I believe that the term "Mix" may have been started by those who had litters of domestic shorthaired kittens (and puppies) of no specific breed but resembled a breed - may have even had a blooded cat as a parent in an "oops" litter - so the kittens (and puppies) would be a little more attractive to those who like the appearance of a certain breed ... I can only guess that the way of thinking here is that those breed-lovers would then be more apt to adopt these kittens and provide them with a good home knowing they were a Breed Mix - at least a part of them were Russian Blue or Siamese or whatever the breed du jour may be, so they must be LIKE the breed, right?

Wrong. It is misleading and in some cases, downright dishonest but it is done every single day by otherwise well-intentioned people and animal welfare organizations. These mixed-blood cats may resemble their pure blooded relatives, but in most cases, don't contain enough of a specific breed's DNA to consistantly produce kittens which also resemble the breed. Cats who do not consistantly produce to breed, type and color cannot be called 'purebreeding' cats. Another important difference is that most breeds also have certain traits of personality, also known as temperment, and domestic cats do not pass along the specific traits of any particular breed. They may ACT like Russian Blues or Siamese or again the Breed Flavor of the day ... but that doesn't make them members of that breed family any more than acting like you are French when you are not French makes you French. Make sense?

The accurate term for a Breed Mix cat is Domestic Short or Long Haired Cat depending, of course, on the hair coat length.
post #33 of 52
Thread Starter 
I really have acknowledge and stated several times that I realize technically Cosmo is not a Russian Blue (or Korat or other all blue pure breed), or even a "Russian Blue Mix". I have read the breed standard, and I have educated myself on how stringent the rules are.

Quote:
They may ACT like Russian Blues or Siamese or again the Breed Flavor of the day ... but that doesn't make them members of that breed family any more than acting like you are French when you are not French makes you French. Make sense?
Incorrect analogy. I am American. My heritage is Irish, French and English (mostly Irish). I do not deny my heritage, though I am clearly english-speaking, caucasian American. That doesn't mean I try to pass myself as Irish, or French or English, but knowing where my roots lie is interesting (to say the least). What you are essentially stating is that because my maternal great great grandparents were pure blood Irish, and my paternal great great grandparents were Irish and English, that I am no longer Irish.

Or take my husband for example. He was born here and is American. His mother is 100% Cuban (she immigrated here in 1956). His father is 100% Puerto Rican (he came to NY in 1955). According to this argument, my husband should deny both heritages and mearly say he is an American (or Domestic House Human LOL). Even if that were true, even if "technically" he couldn't call himself Cuban & Puerto Rican, it wouldn't change the fact that his bloodline indicates he's both.

I was never talking about how the Cat acts -- his personality was just part of the equation on top of how he LOOKS. Obviously, I can't ask him who his parents were

There are questions I keep asking that haven't been answered. It doesn't even matter the breed or breed mix -- I'd just like to know, the most important being...

How do you tell a double coat? I THINK he has a double coat, but am not exactly sure.

Vespa, I meant no offense to you. I've taken everything you said very seriously and have said quite a few times that this is just an exercise for fun... but regardless of a strict breed standard, and the fact that I realize any offspring that are mixed would immediately no longer be Russian Blues, I think realistically it's safe to say that unintentional mixes have happened. I know the minute it does the kittens are technically DHCs - but that doesn't change the fact they'd have Russian Blue blood running through their veins, inhereting traits from their lineage. For all we know Cosmo was the offspring of a Russian Blue (or Chartreaux or Korat or British Blue) dad and a DHC mom, by MISTAKE, by an OOPS, by a cat that ran away, by the owner of a cat they bought a RBlue as a pet that ran away, or before it got fixed mated with their other shelter rescue DHC. It most certainly happens. I presented the comparison to my friend who recently bought a pure bred Maine Coon. He loves the cat dearly and takes excellent care of his kitties, but it isn't yet neutered because it's too young. What if it were to accidentally get out or get stolen?

<begin edit>

Added on edit (3:00pm 3/28) - because in reading even more about Russian Blues I thought it was interesting based on our conversation here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.russianblue.info
Does the Russian Blue come in any other colors?

The true Russian Blue, produced naturally by Mother Nature, only comes in one color - BLUE, as their name implies. This is the only color accepted by the Cat Fanciers Association, and the Russian Blue Fanciers. There are some individuals, in other associations, that are hybridizing the Russian Blue with other breeds to produce a variety of colors and coat lengths.

http://www.russianblue.info/russian_blue_faqs.htm
and another interesting link...

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.platinaluna.com
This may seem obvious, but over the years, some individuals have introduced additional colors and patterns into their breeding program by hybridizing with non-pedigreed domestic cats.

Others have taken domestic blue longhaired cats, mixed some Russian Blues in, and developed a breed recognized in some other associations as the Nebelung... <snip>

...There is absolutely no evidence of Russian Blues naturally occurring in any other color or pattern than solid blue contrary to whatever mythology some have chosen to create. In other words, if the cat is any other color than blue, then is is NOT a Russian Blue, but a domestic cat, perhaps with a little Russian Blue in it.

http://www.platinaluna.com/about_russian_blues.htm
So, as I read that, Russian Blues are bred with other breeds. They don't result in "Russian Blues" but do result in other breeds or even "mixed breeds" with Russian Blue heritage.

<end edit>

Vespa, Please don't take offense to anything I've said. Nothing was meant as a personal attack against you.

And Imagyne, if you feel you need to close this post I do understand. Ultimately, it's not all that important to have hurt feelings over what my cat's heritage may or may not be. I will love Cosmo none-the-less.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy-DHH
Incorrect analogy. I am American. My heritage is Irish, French and English (mostly Irish). I do not deny my heritage, though I am clearly english-speaking, caucasian American. That doesn't mean I try to pass myself as Irish, or French or English, but knowing where my roots lie is interesting (to say the least). What you are essentially stating is that because my maternal great great grandparents were pure blood Irish, and my paternal great great grandparents were Irish and English, that I am no longer Irish.

Or take my husband for example. He was born here and is American. His mother is 100% Cuban (she immigrated here in 1956). His father is 100% Puerto Rican (he came to NY in 1955). According to this argument, my husband should deny both heritages and mearly say he is an American (or Domestic House Human LOL). Even if that were true, even if "technically" he couldn't call himself Cuban & Puerto Rican, it wouldn't change the fact that his bloodline indicates he's both.
Thank you, that's exactly what I meant but I was trying to say it the wrong way... just call me Ms. Inarticulate! It's not a matter of what you want to call the darned thing, it's just common curiosity to want to know his heritage and understand a bit about why he looks the way he looks.

I only wish I knew that about myself since you can only track my family back to the 1700's in the US and then it disappears (presumably overseas). My mom thought she was 1/2 Irish all her life until the internet ancestry research proved otherwise (somebody's father was telling her a falsehood!)... and she proved her heritage by flashing her green eyes. I guess that's sort of like the point they were trying to make... that by specifically labeling it "part RB" because of how it looks is like my mom celebrating a heritage that she had very little to no part of (oops!) because she had green eyes. *Grasping at straws trying to understand where the conversation got off track!* Am I even close? I think my brain got left behind somewhere around the the third post before i even stuck my big clueless nose into it.
post #35 of 52
Thread Starter 
Heheheh Sooz,

Family history is fun stuff, and I have an aunt who is really into it. She's done really detailed albums for all the immediate family groups in our clan, and it's so interesting to see how far back you can trace your lineage.

Of course, trying to figure out if Cosmo has any significant breed in his make-up is all just for fun, since there's no way to really know (unless the cat fairy shows up to tell me hehehe). I can only guess based on his coat and its characteristics combined with his body shape and eye color, and lastly, his temperment.

Interesting thing - I was looking tonight at his feet. His paw pads upon first glance look purely grey, but looking at them today they have a hint of pink/mauve to them. They are really dry right now (poor guy) so it's hard to tell. They are definitely more greyish than pinkish though. Can I take him to the salon for a paraffin wax treatment?
post #36 of 52
If it pleases you to say your cat looks like a Russian Blue, then by all means, have right on at it. You have already made it quite clear that you really don't care one way or the other. Please know that when you ask breeders to help you determine what breed or mix your non-pedigreed cat may be, then you are essentially asking us to pull rabbits out of our hats. You love your cat, that is a fact that will not change so - ok then. I guess we are done here.

Now on to your question about the double coat ...

First, separate the fur at the skin and see if there is a very fine, soft and downy layer up close to the skin. If so, then your cat has both an undercoat and an upper coat. Hope this helps.

~gf~
post #37 of 52
Thread Starter 
GF,

Doesn't please me either way honestly. Just thought it was interesting and fun to try to figure out. To me he looks like Cosmo the King and makes an entrance into a room like Cosmo Kramer -- I could tell my friends and family he looks like a Russian Blue or a Bolivian Blue-Grey Ocelot and they wouldn't know the difference or give a hoot

As for the coat...

There is definitely a soft downy layer up close to the skin, and when you look real close it almost appears like it was crimped with a tiny little hair crimper (like waves). This layer is maybe between 1/8 and 1/4 of an inch thick (guessing). It is also a lighter color than the grey-blue outer layer, which itself it tipped in silver.

So if I was guessing based on what you said, he has a double coat.
post #38 of 52
Amy, that's what it is really all about - your feelings for him. It really isn't important WHAT kind of cat he is ... I really did try to allow everyone to understand that in my posts, but evidently, the written word does escape me at times. This was one of those times, I suppose. I can and will expand further if you (or anyone else) would like, but the fact is that I am a purist and will only continue with the thought process already started in this thread - so if it isn't important anymore, then I won't waste my time.

And yes, based on your description of his fur, then I would have to agree - sounds like a double coat.
post #39 of 52
I have a similar situation with adopting a beautiful, extremely intelligent cat who is so different from any other cats I've had experience with that I too believe he has some purebred in him (in my case Korat). Unlike your Cosmo, Buddy has more of a heart shaped wedge head, he also has more shiny, silvery fur. Buddy chirps to locate me and his "sister" my other cat. Buddy has fetched since we got him, and loves to snuggle every single night at bed time. He also has a lightly ringed tail, charcoal pads, yellowish eyes with a deeper green ring around the center(he's only 1 yr old so they wouldnt have changed yet). I live in Miami, quite a big and diverse city. While I completely understand the 'high standards' that breeders are held to there is no real way to ensure that every single cat will be spared a visit to a shelter.

I would like some experienced opinions on Buddy. I can post more diverse pictures shortly, with different lighting also to highlight his true colors- in this pic he looks dull or flat grey.

post #40 of 52
Thread Starter 
Buddy looks beautiful JR!! Cosmo has the green ring around his pupil as well, and being he's only about a year old it's hard to know if they'll go further green. It's really hard to capture their true color with a camera! I find some of the ones of Cosmo look to brown (have a yellowish color like your shot), but the one's in my signature probably capture his overall color best. He's a true blue-grey color, he has a double coat, and his fur has silver tipping.

Also, one thing I was WRONG about! His paw pads are NOT charcoal as I originally thought. They were very dried out when we first brought him home, and they looked quite grey... but now that they are softening up and the very dry skin is falling off, his paw pads are a mauve, deep pink color!
post #41 of 52
Strange about the paw pads, Buddy also has very dry, cracking, peeling pads. I originally joined this forum to ask questions in a post about cracked pads... I've added a few new pictures:


post #42 of 52
Here's one the kind of shows his shine

post #43 of 52
Thread Starter 
JR,

Looking at the last picture, Buddy actually looks a similar color to Cosmo -- but his eye are a lot more amber-ish in color. Buddy also seems to have the bigger ears like a Russian Blue. He IS beautiful JR! You gotta love these all-blue/grey kitties!

Here's a couple of Cosmo where you can see the silvery sheen/tips in his fur and the greener eyes...



post #44 of 52
First of all both Cosmo and Buddy are truly beautiful cats and they do both exude the wonderful mystique of catness to the max. I don't wonder that you both want to know more about them.

I have a little rescued cat, my Go Go in the siggie, that made me want to read everything I could about Angoras which was what I decided she is related to. I'm sure there are people who would think that Angora mixes are impossible since they have only very recently been imported into America -- yet how else explain cats like Go Go?

I have been reading a profusely illustrated book CATalog by Dr. Bruce Fogle, a British author and got all this info from there.

Probably all our domestic cats have some purebreds in their lines going back to the days BEFORE they were so controlled and limited by breeders for showing etc. My limited understanding of how cat breeds become registered and accepted for showing seems to indicate that there could be a lot of unregistered Russian Blue DNA floating around in the general population of cats outside of the generally accepted pure breds. (After all Russian Blues were in England from the 1840s bfore neutering and spaying.)

For example the purebred American Short Hair was started with ordinary DSHs. I guess we don't dare call DSHs American Short Hair mixes though because they are not part of the registered purebred population. Nevertheless purebreds had to start with unregistered cats so all purebreeds have unregistered ancestry.

This book may resolve the misunderstanding about cross-breeding, too. Although there can be no cross-breeding into the Russian Blue breed there seems to be an allowance for cross-breeding out of the breed. For instance Russian Blues (and other shorthaired cats) were cross-bred with Persians to produce Exotics, which are now registered.

I hope this clears up some misunderstanding that arose earlier in the thread.
post #45 of 52
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the info Katie - very interesting! I'll definitely check out that book
post #46 of 52
Mouse was very similar in build, color & coat to a Russian blue when she was younger, altho she matured to become a much stockier cat, more cobby in build - & she never had the emerald eyes.
that said, she definitely had a double coat - it was impossible to find her skin for flea treatments!
post #47 of 52
Amy, I read your initial post and laughed because of my own situation... I rescued two cats from the shelter a few months ago.. one a calico who was older, and this blue-grey younger cat that I thought was so pretty..

I don't know that much about cats to be honest so it surprised me when someone came to my house and complimented me on the Russian Blue I had. I had no idea what she was talking about.. I said she was from the shelter!

Turns out she is really believed to be a Russian Blue but of course there is no history on her or papers so no way to ever know this for sure. Her eyes are changing color a bit to more green from amber/green, she has the blue/silver double coat, bat like ears, very long and limber and mauve paws.She is just so pretty and different looking which is why she caught my eye. Now I know I can't verify she is, but I find it amusing to have people compliment her so much and then I tell them she was found on the street one day and taken to the shelter. I live in a city so it's possible this cat somehow got out and got lost or picked up quickly. Either way she has a good home now no matter what she is, but now i'm calling her Blue.
post #48 of 52
I've read through this thread with interest, and Amy Cosmo is a beautiful cat but he is definitly not a Russian Blue and probably hasn't got any in his lines either. He is beautiful though!
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy-DHH
Okay... I'm not sure if this is okay to post here, but I wasn't sure where else to post it...

I KNOW he's not a full breed Russian Blue -- he's a shelter rescue... but I was wondering what mix he might be, if he's surely got some Russian Blue in him, or if it's something else?

He's about a year old.
He's solid grey-blue. I can't quite tell if he has the double coat or not.
His tail, the last 1/2 of it has VERY faint striping... rings that are just very slightly darker grey.
His eyes are yellow, but have a green ring around his pupil.
No pink paw pads -- those are charcoal grey.

Here's a picture:



If personality traits help: He's affectionate - VERY - likes to do head-butts. He has a higher pitched meow, almost chirpy but still a mee-oww. He just came home today, so I can't tell if his jumpiness to new sounds and movement is typical or just because of his new surroundings, but once he's comfortable, man is he! He likes to play, but it seems that even when he gets "rough and tumble" the claws don't come out.

What do the experts think?

It would not suprise me if your very handsome cat was a black mog and grey/silver mix.....sorry to disapoint you but he is most definatly not a russian blue because he doesn't have the well known whiskas with the silver tip, and his eyes are not green enough. Although don't be too disapointed he looks and sounds like a very proud and loving cat.
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post #50 of 52
Iam curious are bakers eyes this green if so what kind of food do you feed him for such beautiful eye color, i can only hope that my boy osiris has this color green in his eyes
post #51 of 52
Just for the sake of comparison. Here is a purebred Russian Blue male
http://foto.no/bruker/portfolio/6387.jpg
post #52 of 52
Unfortunately, There is but a few of us who actually know feline genetics really really well... I happen to not be one of them. In any case, no one can really answer your question properly without knowing what the background is of the parents, (as well as the parents themselves).... So, Your cat is mixed with whatever he looks like to you he's mixed with, sounds kinda harsh I know, but different people will see different things, so the best thing to do is go with your gut.

I am now closing this thread.
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