Grain-free really bad for males? Seeking advice

plex7 · Jan 11, 2015

Hello everyone. I have an orange tabby named Micho. He's about 4-5 years old (adopted him, can't know) and recently I've been very interested in improving his diet.

I used to feed him Purina One and Fancy Feast...yeah I know.

Upon educating myself, figured out how these products contain by-products, and a bunch of unnecessary stuff. The quality isn't good.

I read that a Grain-free diet is bad for male cats, but I've also read that it depends how much water intake he has.

I bought him Orijen cat food. I was very impressed with the ingredients list, but the whole having a grain in his diet totally slipped from my mind. However, I also plan on feeding him Authority wet canned food on Tues - Thurs - Sat; during the day dry food and at night, the wet. This canned food has "Brewer's rice" in it.

From my understanding it was suppose to be: Dry with grain, Wet with grain-free. However, I went the opposite.... Dry without grain, Wet with grain.

He's healthy, drinks plenty of water.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

bonepicker · Jan 11, 2015

Male cat should have grain free wet foodi with water added every Day

pinkdagger · Jan 11, 2015

Just curious, where did you get this information from?

Regardless of gender, cats are obligate carnivores and so their needs are best met with meat. If you can find dry and wet grain-free food, all the better. Cats have no need for grain, and males in particular have an added need for hydration. I would opt for grain-free wet and grain-free dry, but if you're concerned about keeping him hydrated, you can feed him more wet than dry, or water down the wet food you serve to him.

Grains are often considered filler material, but in some cases, grain is used as a starchy product to hold food together (like to keep kibble in that compacted kibble shape, or to keep pates in that little meaty block shape, or to thicken "sauces" and "gravies" in wet foods). Because cats don't digest or process them as efficiently, quite a few cat owners feel better forgoing grain altogether.

zoneout · Jan 11, 2015

OP, it is REALLY great that you looking into improving your cat`s diet. So many owners do not realize how important this is until their cat becomes sick and they wind up spending 10x the amount of money saved on food instead on vet bills. But somehow it looks like you got your facts confused. A grain-free diet is not bad for male cats. A dry diet is bad for male cats because it leads to a concentrated urine heavy in the minerals that lead to crystal formation. These crystals can eventually block the flow of urine especially in male cats because their urinary tract is narrower. A urinary blockage is a SERIOUS condition that will cost thousands in vet bills, or if left untreated will lead to as excruciatingly painful a death imagineable as the bladder will burst and kidneys shut down.

Again kudos to you for doing your research and if you need anything else cleared up please let us know.

catwoman707 · Jan 11, 2015

I'm also curious where you read or heard that grain free dry is bad for a male cat.

That's the first time I have ever heard that one.

As a simple basic overview on good and appropriate diet for cats, cats are natural carnivores. Their diet is meat and havre specific nutritional needs that are found in meat, such as taurine.

So the more meat in their food, the better.

Cats have a very high need for water/fluid to keep their systems healthy and operating correctly.

Both male and female cats are susceptible to urinary tract infections and/or crystals and are very dangerous to both. It's just that in a male cat when this happens is even more of an emergency simply due to their narrower tract and will block easier and faster, and can kill them quite fast.

So canned food is a great help in ensuring they are getting plenty of it, since canned actually is made up of about 3/4 water in ingredients.

By the way, this means males and females alike.

Grain vs grain free, well regarding dry, there are not so bad grains in better quality food and some rediculously useless crap grains in cheaper foods.

If you choose to feed dry food, first thing is you will also want to feed canned. Dry food is very depleting of water.

It is by far better for a cat to feed grain free because there will be a higher meat content. This is where the price goes up since they load grains as fillers into less expensive foods.

There is nothing wrong with feeding fancy feast! However, CLASSICS are grain free and without some of the other garbage ingredients that are not meant for a cat's daily diet, guar gum and carageenan are certainly not what a cat requires nutritionally, and can even cause issues with them as many cats react to these type things.

The key is to learn what ingredients are, the difference between meat by product meal and chicken or turkey meal. Learning what by products really are. What to stay far away from. Corn gluten meal. Nothing but pure crap.

The least amt of ingredients and the more meat words used specifically and not the word meat itself! Meaning you want to see chicken, turkey, lamb, pork, beef, NOT meat in general. You will never see the word meat in the ingredients list of good quality foods.

Maybe breakfast and dinner feed canned, then a bit of dry in between.

Always plenty of water that is fresh and clean, in a glass bowl and not plastic.

Cats are very picky about their water being clean and fresh, and encourages them to drink more if it is changed each time you happen to walk past it.

Know the signs of uti in case it ever occurs.

Glad you are caring about what to feed him

Anne · Jan 11, 2015

In my opinion, there really is no one solution that fits all cats and owners. There are no lifelong studies about feline nutrition so opinions about which is better are just opinions at this point. Many cats, males included, thrive on a dry-food diet. Providing enough water is always important and we have an excellent article about how to encourage your cat to drink more water, if that's an issue.

As for grains, with cats being obligate carnivores there is the issue of just how much carbohydrates vs. protein we need to feed them. It makes sense to feed a protein-based diet and with that in mind, a food that contains a lot of grain could have the wrong ratio of calories to protein. However it's not just grain, it's also about legume, starch etc. Personally, I don't worry too much about "grain-free". I think it's the overall protein to carbs ratio that matters.

Also, don't worry about the food containing "by-products". There is nothing wrong with that ingredient. It's a good source of protein in pet food.

If you're worried about your cat's health and nutrition, you can always consult a pet nutritionist. These are veterinarians who specialize in nutrition and can help you even with a phone consultation. You may find this interview with pet nutritionist Martha Cline interesting -

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/cat-food-feline-nutrition-with-pet-nutritionist-dr-martha-cline

chwx · Jan 12, 2015

Yes, yes, yes to Anne's post! Don't get overly caught up on things right now. You're making change and that's good but a food will only be as good as what the cat will actually consume. I know mine do well on a mix of canned and kibble. Which they eat mostly kibble because it's what I can afford, with 5.5-6 ounces canned food shared between 3 cats every morning. I fill the empty can with warm water and mix it into the canned food for extra liquids. I try to keep things high protein, moderate fat and low carb rather than fuss over "grain free" since some grain free foods you're paying for bags of potatoes and/or peas, not meat, and that's no better for a cat than wheat or rice.

plex7 · Jan 12, 2015

Loveddd all these replies. Thanks a lot everyone! I'll keep it going then with his new diet (Orijen [dry] + Authority [wet])

This thread here was really confusing. It should be bumped to discuss it further. Laying out facts and not misinformation.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/224913/grain-free-bad-for-male-cats

plex7 · Jan 12, 2015

catwoman707 said:
I'm also curious where you read or heard that grain free dry is bad for a male cat.

That's the first time I have ever heard that one.

As a simple basic overview on good and appropriate diet for cats, cats are natural carnivores. Their diet is meat and havre specific nutritional needs that are found in meat, such as taurine.

So the more meat in their food, the better.

Cats have a very high need for water/fluid to keep their systems healthy and operating correctly.

Both male and female cats are susceptible to urinary tract infections and/or crystals and are very dangerous to both. It's just that in a male cat when this happens is even more of an emergency simply due to their narrower tract and will block easier and faster, and can kill them quite fast.

So canned food is a great help in ensuring they are getting plenty of it, since canned actually is made up of about 3/4 water in ingredients.

By the way, this means males and females alike.

Grain vs grain free, well regarding dry, there are not so bad grains in better quality food and some rediculously useless crap grains in cheaper foods.

If you choose to feed dry food, first thing is you will also want to feed canned. Dry food is very depleting of water.

It is by far better for a cat to feed grain free because there will be a higher meat content. This is where the price goes up since they load grains as fillers into less expensive foods.

There is nothing wrong with feeding fancy feast! However, CLASSICS are grain free and without some of the other garbage ingredients that are not meant for a cat's daily diet, guar gum and carageenan are certainly not what a cat requires nutritionally, and can even cause issues with them as many cats react to these type things.

The key is to learn what ingredients are, the difference between meat by product meal and chicken or turkey meal. Learning what by products really are. What to stay far away from. Corn gluten meal. Nothing but pure crap.

The least amt of ingredients and the more meat words used specifically and not the word meat itself! Meaning you want to see chicken, turkey, lamb, pork, beef, NOT meat in general. You will never see the word meat in the ingredients list of good quality foods.

Maybe breakfast and dinner feed canned, then a bit of dry in between.

Always plenty of water that is fresh and clean, in a glass bowl and not plastic.

Cats are very picky about their water being clean and fresh, and encourages them to drink more if it is changed each time you happen to walk past it.

Know the signs of uti in case it ever occurs.

Glad you are caring about what to feed him

Thanks for the info! What are some signs of UTI? Thanks in advance.

catwoman707 · Jan 12, 2015

Peeing outside the box, straining or crying while peeing, blood in pee, frequent trips to the box, being in the peeing position for extended period of time, lethargy, hiding, any of these symptoms.

Probably the most commonly seen is being in a peeing position for longer than normal time, and or getting in the box to pee, but not peeing or in and out of the box.

plex7 · Jan 12, 2015

catwoman707 said:
Peeing outside the box, straining or crying while peeing, blood in pee, frequent trips to the box, being in the peeing position for extended period of time, lethargy, hiding, any of these symptoms.

Probably the most commonly seen is being in a peeing position for longer than normal time, and or getting in the box to pee, but not peeing or in and out of the box.

Thank you. He isn't showing none of these signs for sure.

Been re-thinking his diet now. What if I feed him one 6oz can per day? Authority brand, only contains brewer's rice as a grain. Or what's a good valued wet canned food?

Petsmart sell their wet canned food (authority is their brand) for 80 cents times 30 that's $24. I just paid $24 + $4 for the a 5lb bag of Orijen + 5 canned food. Opinions on Authority? I've read their wet canned food is good stuff.

From my understanding, a strict wet diet is the way to go. Grain-free.

plex7 · Jan 12, 2015

Shoot. Can't figure out how to edit my post. But, I just noticed the canned food has 10% crude protein. Isn't that a bit too low if I go strictly wet?

pinkdagger · Jan 12, 2015

I can't link from my phone, but if you look at the Articles tab at the top of the page and go to the Cat Health tab and find the article on Dry Matter Basis - the protein seems very low in canned foods, but consider that most canned food are 78-82% water. When you remove the water content, it usually comes out as around 45% protein, which is common in the higher end higher protein dry foods too.

I actually really like Petsmart's Grreat Choice canned food. It's cheaper, they have quite a few flavours, and all but the pates but salmon are grain free.

chwx · Jan 12, 2015

10% on a wet basis, not dry. 10% in canned is actually a good bit of protein. I like Authority, I've really only got experience with their kibble long term but the canned isn't bad. Brewers rice certainly isn't the end of the world if that's the worst of it. I use a LOT of Petsmarts other brand 'Grreat Choice'. About 45 cents for the 5.5oz cans and they're often on sale for cheaper. Only real downfall for me personally is most formulas (maybe all, I can't remember) contain SOME fish. They're not super "high end" but the formulas I get are grain, fruit, veggie free (so all meat) and they're low carb so it works for us. With 5 mouths to feed (possibly more, we have so many feral cats around us) I can't really afford to be too picky. :lol3: You don't have to limit yourself to one brand either, a variety of brands and flavors help round out your kitty's nutrition.

I currently have 5 brands on hand in 15 different flavors. This is actually a low stock for me since I NORMALLY would have 10+ brands and 20+ flavors. There are times that my cats won't eat the same food/flavor twice in a month because they have so many different kinds.

Really whatever is on sale for a good price and/or I have good value coupons for tend to come home with me...

Some cats, 6 oz would be a full days worth of food for so you might not need kibble or may only need a small amount each day to add up to his daily caloric needs if feeding 6oz.

zoneout · Jan 12, 2015

Plex7 said:
This thread here was really confusing. It should be bumped to discuss it further. Laying out facts and not misinformation.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/224913/grain-free-bad-for-male-cats

Yeah, have to agree that thread can be confusing

... now I understand how you came to the conclusion that GF is bad for males.

You have to get all the way to post #98 where Antiekitty says:

It bears repeating, maybe, that the focus should not be on whether a product has grains or not, but on the level of moisture and the percentage of carbs and other ingredients that alter urine PH off the norm.

According to the NRC's "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats", a cat can maintain a hydrated state as long as the moisture level of her food meets or exceeds 63%, as fed. All dry kibble diets create a state of chronic dehydration, thereby concentrating urine and creating an environment ripe for urinary tract issues (not to mention stressing the kidneys and other body organs).

plex7 · Jan 12, 2015

Excellent. I shall go full wet diet as soon as that bag of Orijen is done.

Just to clarify, there's nothing wrong with a wet diet? It's actually better because there's more water/moisture. Better digestion, better crave (oh boy you should see Micho craving the can). No CONS right?

zoneout · Jan 13, 2015

Plex7 said:
Just to clarify, there's nothing wrong with a wet diet? It's actually better because there's more water/moisture. Better digestion, better crave (oh boy you should see Micho craving the can). No CONS right?

Correct, in and of itself a wet diet is species appropriate for a cat because it approximates the moisture content of their natural prey - say a mouse for instance which is about 70% moisture content.

Well since you asked, yes there are cons.... (nothing is ever that simple - right?) That moisture which is mixed with the food in the processing plant normally tends to separate out from it while sitting in the can for a period of time. So the consistency of the food changes depending on how long it has been sitting on the shelf. To circumvent this problem manufacturers add binders which cause the water molecules to stick to the food molecules rather than separate out. These binders are controversial as to health concerns. You will see them in the ingredients listed as carrageenan and guar gum (and newer xanthan gum to a lesser extent). Most of the discussion has centered on carrageenan which is derived from seaweed - and has only become even more suspect since much of it is farmed near Japan in radioactive water from the nuclear plant disaster. About 90% of the canned food available lists carrageenan among its ingredients. Some concerned people look for food without it or look for it being way down at the bottom of the ingredient list (the implication being that there is less of it).

There are other options but at this point lets not complicate things. You will continue to learn as you read more and discuss. Already, by going from dry to wet food you have taken steps in the right direction.

maureen brad · Jan 13, 2015

Grain free food is better than dry food for cats. there are no definitive studies on exactly the amount of nutrients that need to be added but they do know which nutrients . A rotational diet of wet grain freed food covers the nutritional needs.

We know that the digestive system of cats is the same as it has always been. Unlike dogs they have not evolved to easily digest grains. Up until about 40/50 years ago most people who had pet cats let them roam outdoors and catch their own food. They have not had time for their digestive systems to have evolved or changed. This is known without doubt.

We know that cats in nature have never eaten dry food. While they may digest some fruits etc. because they eat animals and their stomach content cats, they hunt animals/rodents and do not choose fruit as a meal. They do not easily digest fruit/veggies etc.

They need water yes but do not drink enough to avoid dehydration. In nature they would get most of their water from the food they eat.

All cats do better on wet food.Grain-free is important and these days even most veterinarians will readily admit that. Male cats especially have problems with urinary crystals and blockages, eating easily digestible food and having plenty of water protects them.The best way to get that food is to feed a grain-free wet food or raw food diet.

plex7 · Jan 13, 2015

Excellent. I'm ready! Thanks everyone.

Just one more thing. Grreat Choice vs. Authority

Grreat Choice - Ingredients: Meat By-products, Poultry By-products, Sufficient Water For Processing, Beef, Animal Liver, Fish, Guar Gum, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, D-calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Added Color, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide, Choline Chloride, Carrageenan And Taurine

Authority - Ingredients: Chicken Liver, Chicken Broth, Chicken, Fish, Brewers Rice, Powdered Cellulose, Dried Egg Product, Dried Beet Pulp, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil, Guar Gum, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Inulin, Carrageenan, Taurine, Yeast Extract, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Niacin, Sodium Selenite, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin.

For $0.37 for Grreat choice (5.5oz) vs. $0.80 Authority (6oz), I dare to ask which one is better and by how much? Also how significantly? The 0.5oz difference doesn't matter, my cat doesn't overeat and there's always left overs.

Want to get the best bang for the buck.

I'm already turned off by "by-products," however someone said it isn't a big deal on here. Also like how Grreat choice lists less ingredients.

Also, how bad is gravy? Years ago I read that gravy is absolutely bad for cats. I think that's why subconsciously I've been avoiding canned food back then. All the supermarket offered was gravy canned food. Where I live now though, good thing there's a petsmart near me.

catwoman707 · Jan 13, 2015

My personal views-

"Meat" by products, what meat would this be? cow, pig, turkey, horse, dog, cat? Non specific scares me.

Taurine is extremely vital for cats, listed very last means it can be a dot of it but since it's required they HAVE to add it.

The additional ingredient list from Authority are vitamins added.

My suggestion?

Feed a rotational diet, a variety of meat proteins and brands, pricey and cheap.

This ensures less likelihood of developing IBD, helps ensure the full spectrum of nutrients are consumed, and won't break the bank either!

By-products. Specified by-products of an animal (which animal they're from) helps, and yes there are some that are beneficial, but it also leaves the door open that it is okay for manufacturers to use crap that AAFCO does not consider useful by products too, which I tend to highly suspect make their way in to cheap foods.

Grain-free really bad for males? Seeking advice

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