Premature kitten stopped gaining weight and is has now dropped 6 grams today.

JayAngeles said:

She hasn't gone back into the box since I took the kitten out of her mouth the last time. She's laying on the end of my bed, staring at it.

Should I try the dog kennel? My closet is pretty much storage for holiday decorations otherwise I'd try that. Thank you for your help!

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She seems to have got some negative feeling against this old place.

It cant be helped, you must try with something else.  Perhaps this kennel.   But dont reuse the bedding which is in the box at this moment.

While tame moms are more accepting of handling her kids than ferals might be, it's hard to know the amt of stress she feels about this.

It sounds like taking both away together sent her into thinking she must hide them someplace else so they are hers, protecting them from going away.

I would def. crate her with them temporarily. I would not take both away from here on. We don't want her to get upset again.

After a few days you can try her box again once she forgets that she thinks you are going to take them away from her.

When you pull baby out for feedings, put him right back in with her. If possible, maybe feed him right next to her crate so she sees he is fine and will be right back with her.

Rather than taking out the heating pad each time, which is a pain anyway, take a sock and fill it with rice, knotting the top and heat well in the microwave.

Or a water bottle filled with hot water and covered, anything to create a source of heat for him while feeding.

How's his weight?

Oh, no worries about her hurting them, she won't. I know it looks awful though! Like she might have his entire head in her mouth type thing, right?! 

The only time I ever had to intervene with a mom was with a very feral cat who delivered within hours of my trapping her.

I was amazed that she allowed me to help her kids, found 4 babies all cold and tangled together, she had not chewed the cords off. WHAT a nightmare, I hate even recalling that day.....

Well turns out she had a uterine infection and had to remove her kids to get her into a carrier somehow and get her to a vet.

She flipped out! The last baby she grabbed it's entire head and was thrashing back and forth in the cage, He was flying all over and hitting the sides of the cage, she was NOT letting him go!!

I thought for sure his neck would have been broken, but adrenaline kicked in and I jammed my arm in there and nailed her to the floor by her scruff, finally dropping the baby.

He was okay, I still can't believe it either, I was sure traumatized! My heart ached for her, it still makes me tear up remembering her sad momma cries when we took her away to the vet.

They LOVE their babies. It was like rather than lose them all she would rather kill it. Very sad.

Anyway! While it might look awful, momma isn't hurting them.

JayAngeles said:

You're a very inspirational person, I'm so glad I found this site! You have a heart of gold for the help you give and for all the work you do in helping cats and people alike and I appreciate this so much!!

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Thanks so much.   

I love being able to help. It does my heart good. The downside is, it's also hard on my heart, as I get so emotionally involved, just as with my rescue, not all happy endings, but it's what I do, and love.

catwoman707 said:

 
While tame moms are more accepting of handling her kids than ferals might be, it's hard to know the amt of stress she feels about this.

It sounds like taking both away together sent her into thinking she must hide them someplace else so they are hers, protecting them from going away.

I would def. crate her with them temporarily. I would not take both away from here on. We don't want her to get upset again.

After a few days you can try her box again once she forgets that she thinks you are going to take them away from her.

When you pull baby out for feedings, put him right back in with her. If possible, maybe feed him right next to her crate so she sees he is fine and will be right back with her.

Rather than taking out the heating pad each time, which is a pain anyway, take a sock and fill it with rice, knotting the top and heat well in the microwave.

Or a water bottle filled with hot water and covered, anything to create a source of heat for him while feeding.

How's his weight?

Oh, no worries about her hurting them, she won't. I know it looks awful though! Like she might have his entire head in her mouth type thing, right?! 

The only time I ever had to intervene with a mom was with a very feral cat who delivered within hours of my trapping her.

I was amazed that she allowed me to help her kids, found 4 babies all cold and tangled together, she had not chewed the cords off. WHAT a nightmare, I hate even recalling that day.....

Well turns out she had a uterine infection and had to remove her kids to get her into a carrier somehow and get her to a vet.

She flipped out! The last baby she grabbed it's entire head and was thrashing back and forth in the cage, He was flying all over and hitting the sides of the cage, she was NOT letting him go!!

I thought for sure his neck would have been broken, but adrenaline kicked in and I jammed my arm in there and nailed her to the floor by her scruff, finally dropping the baby.

He was okay, I still can't believe it either, I was sure traumatized! My heart ached for her, it still makes me tear up remembering her sad momma cries when we took her away to the vet.

They LOVE their babies. It was like rather than lose them all she would rather kill it. Very sad.

Anyway! While it might look awful, momma isn't hurting them.

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Well, today has been a huge switch up from what we've been used too. 

I went ahead and put them in that kennel in a different box (just an open cardboard box inside because I was worried about the babies falling out the sides of the kennel) and covered just the top with a fleece blanket (like a roof) so it was dark and secluded. Well...Mom didn't like it and flipped over the box a few minutes afterwards and took Chunk to sit next to her. She didn't touch Hiccup. So I fixed up the box, set a heating pad in there againon low under fresh new bedding, covered the floor of the kennel with a soft fleece blanket incase she moved them around the kennel and I covered one side of the kennels outside with a giant blanket so it was darker. I want her to feel safe, I don't want her to think I'm this horrible girl who swoops in and steals her babies. Anyways, I switched off the bedroom light, turned on the flashlight on my phone and waited. 

She paced around for a few minutes before laying down outside of the kitten box. Over the last few hours, she's hopped into the kitten box when Chunk or Hiccup make cry and as soon as they fall asleep, she lays back down outside of the box. She hasn't moved them and I've been able to go in there, take out Hiccup and just feed him right there infront of the kennel so she can see, smell, and investigate anything and everything I'm doing.  Because she's only going in the box when they cry, I've been watching Chunk's weight closer incase he stops getting enough from her. However, he's been fine. 

Hiccup, I am absolutely thrilled to say, is very active, much louder when he cries (when he's hungry), moves around better, purrs good, just overall in general is doing better. He eats between 4.5-5mL every feeding and he usually starts to cry for more food every 2-2.5 hours. I'm scared to over feed him because he's been eating great and still acts like he wants more so I was curious if it's okay to feed him every 2.5 hours?? He would eat 5ml every 2 hours if I let him, he's got a huge appetite now compared to ever before. 

His weight has fluctuated a bit however it's gone up after every feeding. He's 10 grams up from his worst weight when we changed up his eating (143g) and is now at 153g. He's got the appetite to out eat a sumo wrestler though!! 

YES!! It looks HORRIBLE when she picks them up, half the time I swore she didn't pay much attention to where she grabbed. She had Hiccup by the throat twice and picked up Chunk by his upper back leg! I felt terrible she was worried I would keep taking them :/

That's shocking!! And the kitten made it just fine afterwards?? That's amazing, I'd be traumatized too!! Heck, whenever I leave the room now, I'm worried momma might lay on the kittens, tip over the box on them and they get cold, just anything races through my mind. I couldn't imagine going through that!!

Its really difficult to overfeed them.   The real danger is if you give too much and they are weak and dont manage to swallow fast enough (that is why you must begin with giving it so very slow if they are weak - so its important not to misunderstand the word "forcefeeding" which I happened to use - you shall not force in them for real like into a package).  Also,, they can get refluxes.    So this is another reason for better little but often.

But when they becomes stronger and more feisty, they  manage more than earlier.   Without difficulties to swallor nor  get refluxes.     Burping gives additional extra safety.

What do you mean about this 2,5 hours?  Instead of 2 hours or instead of 3 hours??

When he is stabilized at steady adding 8- 10 g a day, you can prolong the pauses.   Better keep a tight schedule till you are sure and he got some margins.

Ahh, okay I understand what you mean. Yes, he swallows and eats much better now and is very fiesty. He'll move his front legs and hold the syringe or kind of naw on the tip of the syringe if I'm not squirting some in there fast enough, haha

I just meant right now I'm feeding him 4.5 to 5ml every 3 hours and he seems to wake up and start rustling around and meowing in there about half an hour before every feeding. I was wondering if it would benefit him to eat every 2.5 hours at 4.5 to 5ml instead of every 3 hours?? But I was worried that increasing the frequency would mean over feeding him?

Thank you for your help by the way

U do not want any kitten food to get into the babys lungs. If you do they will die. So yeah in  a way you can over feed if using a syringe and you are "injecting" it faster than the kitten can swallow the formula has no where to go but into the lungs or hopefully the baby coughs it up.

Reflux is when the stomach contents exit out through the esophageal sphincter-spit up basically. I would think as with humans smaller meals and allowing the baby to rest to digest after eating, and even a kitten burp will decrease this occurance.

Slykat12 said:

U do not want any kitten food to get into the babys lungs. If you do they will die. So yeah in  a way you can over feed if using a syringe and you are "injecting" it faster than the kitten can swallow the formula has no where to go but into the lungs or hopefully the baby coughs it up.

Reflux is when the stomach contents exit out through the esophageal sphincter-spit up basically. I would think as with humans smaller meals and allowing the baby to rest to digest after eating, and even a kitten burp will decrease this occurance.

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Okay, do you think since he's eating well and is more active that I should switch from syringe to a bottle? Same amount of food and frequency, I'll measure out the formula with the syringe but put it in a bottle for him to nurse from. Is that a better idea now that he's eating more and has more energy to suckle?

JayAngeles said:

Okay, do you think since he's eating well and is more active that I should switch from syringe to a bottle? Same amount of food and frequency, I'll measure out the formula with the syringe but put it in a bottle for him to nurse from. Is that a better idea now that he's eating more and has more energy to suckle?

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You can surely try!

Yes, what I meant before, when they themselves swallow actively, the danger for accidents becomes much lesser.  That is why its pracetically impossible to overfeed a healthy kitten as long as you are normally cautious.

continuing.  You can surely change from 3 to 2,5.  The 3 is really a compromise for the caretaker.  The caretaker must have rest she too...

StefanZ said:

 
You can surely try!

Yes, what I meant before, when they themselves swallow actively, the danger for accidents becomes much lesser.  That is why its pracetically impossible to overfeed a healthy kitten as long as you are normally cautious.

continuing.  You can surely change from 3 to 2,5.  The 3 is really a compromise for the caretaker.  The caretaker must have rest she too...

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I'm having major problems with momma. She moved the kittens out of their box in the kennel and Hiccup either scooted away from her or she left him but anyways, he was cold when I picked him up. The other one was warm so I moved them back into the nest box so they could warm up with the heating pad. I can't tell if Hiccup's tummy is bloated or if his chest being smaller makes it look bigger but it's definitely on the firmer side. I'm hoping warming him back up will help it.

I tried the bottle (before she moved them and he was chilled), and well, it didn't go so great. He wasn't interested in it even when I tried to put it in his cheek and just squeeze a tiny bit out so he would get the idea, he's chew on it a bit and drop it. So I went back to the syringe and he ate 4mL good. 

I'm concerned about her moving them and leaving them both cold again. I tried sitting in there with her and she took Chunk and left him in the middle of the floor of the kennel and she jumped up on the roof of the kitten box and laid there. 

What do I do now? Hiccup gained 7g today, Chunk gained 13g so he's still nursing from momma. The kennel is so big that the heating pad would barely cover 1/3 of the kennel flooring if I were to take the kitten box out and let her have them on the floor. I'm so stressed, I can't imagine how she feels! Any ideas?

Have you ever thought the heating pad may be too hot and that is why she moves them? I live in California and no day of the year we need a heating pad inside the house-just a thought. If your house is normal temp and the three cuddle I bet they are warm enough. Do not worry about the heating pad only covering so much of the cage. As to the feeding- if the dropper works use the dropper. I was just making a valid point.

BTW kittens cannot pee or poo on their own. The mom licks their genitals and anus to make that happen. If mom is not doing enough of this the babies may need assistance. The fat belly may be waste.

Gently take a kitten and hold them over a small towel. Take a soft, moist piece of paper towel or tissue and use it like a mother cats tongue over the kittens urethra, then anus. 5 gentle swipes should do it. They will often poo and pee right then and there on the tissue/towel.

And about you getting stressed. Stop it. U are doing great and I am sure mom is too.

Always try to get hicupp to eat from mom.

JayAngeles said:

 
I'm having major problems with momma. She moved the kittens out of their box in the kennel and Hiccup either scooted away from her or she left him but anyways, he was cold when I picked him up. The other one was warm so I moved them back into the nest box so they could warm up with the heating pad. I can't tell if Hiccup's tummy is bloated or if his chest being smaller makes it look bigger but it's definitely on the firmer side. I'm hoping warming him back up will help it.

I tried the bottle (before she moved them and he was chilled), and well, it didn't go so great. He wasn't interested in it even when I tried to put it in his cheek and just squeeze a tiny bit out so he would get the idea, he's chew on it a bit and drop it. So I went back to the syringe and he ate 4mL good. 

I'm concerned about her moving them and leaving them both cold again. I tried sitting in there with her and she took Chunk and left him in the middle of the floor of the kennel and she jumped up on the roof of the kitten box and laid there. 

What do I do now? Hiccup gained 7g today, Chunk gained 13g so he's still nursing from momma. The kennel is so big that the heating pad would barely cover 1/3 of the kennel flooring if I were to take the kitten box out and let her have them on the floor. I'm so stressed, I can't imagine how she feels! Any ideas?

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Take the box out of the kennel.

Take several towels and roll them up tightly longways and stuff them inside all along the bottom of the cage. If you have quick ties to fasten them down then do so.

This acts just like a bumper pad in a baby crib.

It's VERY important. That feral mom I described? That was my first and only lesson about the cage and it's potential dangers, I went in one morning and she was laying down, between her back and the cage wires was a kitten, dead. This may have been on purpose, perhaps something was wrong that I couldn't see in the baby.

Mom's really don't accidentally smash their babies and not feel them. 

I'm sure mom senses that hiccup is a weak link so to speak, which causes her to allow him to go off and get cold.

Remember I mentioned a while back about this? It's a sure sign. If she were out in the wild I would bet she would take him away from chunk and herself as protection.

They see a weak/sick baby as a threat to the other's safety.

As long as she doesn't get abusive towards him and still cares for him, then he can stay with her, but if you ever notice excessive roughness, or purposely pushing him away, he needs out for good.

This may happen, and it may not. I've seen all sorts of things.. Some I won't even mention. This just comes with caring for countless litters and moms, so don't worry from my saying that. Most of the bad has been from feral moms.

The box is likely too confining feeling to her.

I think the heating pad on low, as long as it doesn't cover the entire area is fine.

You might consider lowering the sides just having enough to keep the kids confined so hiccup doesn't go off and get cold again, as this is not good.

It takes babies about 3 weeks before they can maintain their warmth/body temps, but yours will be 3 1/2 weeks due to them being premature. Technically if they were born 4 days early, they are developmentally 4 days behind. Same as in human babies. 

The only way he is going to take the bottle is likely if he is no longer nursing, in other words if he needs to be pulled from mom, then he will adapt to the bottle fine after a few tries, otherwise they just don't.

Wish those darn nipples were closer resemblance to a mom!

Petco bottles, I forget the name of the most common bottle kits, but Hartz actually makes some that are alot better feeling. 

Great on the weight gain!!

If it's to the point where he wants more, give him more, or more often. The overfeeding part occurs more when we have to fight them to supplement, but he is obviously feeding from you mainly or even solely.

So if he wants 5 mls every 2 1/2, then go for it.

@catwoman707 -- how about if a small round piece of fleece with a hole cut in it to slip the nipple through was placed over the bottle nipple? so the fleece might simulate the way momma cats fur feels. do you think that would be something worth trying?

mickNsnicks2mom said:

 
@catwoman707 -- how about if a small round piece of fleece with a hole cut in it to slip the nipple through was placed over the bottle nipple? so the fleece might simulate the way momma cats fur feels. do you think that would be something worth trying?

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This works great and I do suggest it for bottle fed babies, as they get to where they are reaching out and grasping at anything, so when your hand is there holding the bottle it won't get all scratched up.

However it's the nipple feel that he will resist as long as he still has mom to compare it to.

Why they still make them so hard and far from what mom's feel like is a mystery to me!!

Good thinking though!!

catwoman707 said:

 
Take the box out of the kennel.

Take several towels and roll them up tightly longways and stuff them inside all along the bottom of the cage. If you have quick ties to fasten them down then do so.

This acts just like a bumper pad in a baby crib.

It's VERY important. That feral mom I described? That was my first and only lesson about the cage and it's potential dangers, I went in one morning and she was laying down, between her back and the cage wires was a kitten, dead. This may have been on purpose, perhaps something was wrong that I couldn't see in the baby.

Mom's really don't accidentally smash their babies and not feel them. 

I'm sure mom senses that hiccup is a weak link so to speak, which causes her to allow him to go off and get cold.

Remember I mentioned a while back about this? It's a sure sign. If she were out in the wild I would bet she would take him away from chunk and herself as protection.

They see a weak/sick baby as a threat to the other's safety.

As long as she doesn't get abusive towards him and still cares for him, then he can stay with her, but if you ever notice excessive roughness, or purposely pushing him away, he needs out for good.

This may happen, and it may not. I've seen all sorts of things.. Some I won't even mention. This just comes with caring for countless litters and moms, so don't worry from my saying that. Most of the bad has been from feral moms.

The box is likely too confining feeling to her.

I think the heating pad on low, as long as it doesn't cover the entire area is fine.

You might consider lowering the sides just having enough to keep the kids confined so hiccup doesn't go off and get cold again, as this is not good.

It takes babies about 3 weeks before they can maintain their warmth/body temps, but yours will be 3 1/2 weeks due to them being premature. Technically if they were born 4 days early, they are developmentally 4 days behind. Same as in human babies. 

The only way he is going to take the bottle is likely if he is no longer nursing, in other words if he needs to be pulled from mom, then he will adapt to the bottle fine after a few tries, otherwise they just don't.

Wish those darn nipples were closer resemblance to a mom!

Petco bottles, I forget the name of the most common bottle kits, but Hartz actually makes some that are alot better feeling. 

Great on the weight gain!!

If it's to the point where he wants more, give him more, or more often. The overfeeding part occurs more when we have to fight them to supplement, but he is obviously feeding from you mainly or even solely.

So if he wants 5 mls every 2 1/2, then go for it.

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I set up the bumpers and took out the box. I think she likes it better this way, she hasn't paced around it or tried to get out.

 I was worried she'd hurt him, the only thing I've seen her do other then him getting away/being pushed away from her was at 5am this morning right after feeding him, she got rough trying to lick the KMR off his cheek. I don't think she hurt him, she was licking and then bit (I think) the fur on his cheek and picked him up off the ground just to drop him when I opened the cage door to try to stop it. But it wasn't anything drastic. I've left them in there with her where she wants them and she's stayed close by both. I go in there every 45 minutes to make sure Hiccup and Chunk haven't scooted away from her and are still warm. However just a few minutes ago, she was licking Chunk's fur and put her mouth over his neck and held him there. I don't think she's biting down but if she doesn't let go, Chunk cries. 

He's up to 156g and has now started trying to place his feet under him instead of out to the sides when he tries walking. They're still a bit bowed out but they're a lot better then what I originally thought! Thank you all for your help! Hiccup's tummy feels really swollen after I feed him but after a couple hours with a warm blanket and mom, it's back to normal so I'm guessing it's him digesting food. This past feeding he had 4mL and looked like he swelled up a lot so I weighed him and put him back in with mom. 

I wish they would change how they make the nipples so they simulate a momma cat's more, it'd be nice not to have to fight him with it. Out of curiosity, when do kittens typically start weaning? I know it's not any time soon but I've looked it up and I've read everything from as early as 4.5 weeks and as late as 9 weeks. Is that about right? 

JayAngeles said:

 
I set up the bumpers and took out the box. I think she likes it better this way, she hasn't paced around it or tried to get out.

 I was worried she'd hurt him, the only thing I've seen her do other then him getting away/being pushed away from her was at 5am this morning right after feeding him, she got rough trying to lick the KMR off his cheek. I don't think she hurt him, she was licking and then bit (I think) the fur on his cheek and picked him up off the ground just to drop him when I opened the cage door to try to stop it. But it wasn't anything drastic. I've left them in there with her where she wants them and she's stayed close by both. I go in there every 45 minutes to make sure Hiccup and Chunk haven't scooted away from her and are still warm. However just a few minutes ago, she was licking Chunk's fur and put her mouth over his neck and held him there. I don't think she's biting down but if she doesn't let go, Chunk cries. 

He's up to 156g and has now started trying to place his feet under him instead of out to the sides when he tries walking. They're still a bit bowed out but they're a lot better then what I originally thought! Thank you all for your help! Hiccup's tummy feels really swollen after I feed him but after a couple hours with a warm blanket and mom, it's back to normal so I'm guessing it's him digesting food. This past feeding he had 4mL and looked like he swelled up a lot so I weighed him and put him back in with mom. 

I wish they would change how they make the nipples so they simulate a momma cat's more, it'd be nice not to have to fight him with it. Out of curiosity, when do kittens typically start weaning? I know it's not any time soon but I've looked it up and I've read everything from as early as 4.5 weeks and as late as 9 weeks. Is that about right? 

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Sometimes mom does seem to be rough, but there is a distinct way about her if she was resenting or wanted him away from her.

I think she is okay for now, hopefully will remain that way with hiccup. Chunk should be fine since he is doing great and has been.

His tummy should be plump and well rounded after eating. As you said it may seem more pronounced due to his flattened chest.

If you put 4 or 5 mls in something you will see, it's really not much at all.

He was at 3 mls every 3 hours and wasn't gaining correct? Try to keep him at at least 4.5 or so. We want his gaining to be consistent and him to thrive

Weaning is learned from mom eating from her dish. About 3-3 1/2 weeks old they start nosing around, want to know what they might be missing out on. They will munch from her dish here and there, while at the same time, mom will take more and more breaks from nursing, and so the transition happens, they rely more and more on the food.

Once they are fully able to eat well on their own, I pull them and allow mom to dry out which takes about 2 weeks then she can be spayed.

Sometimes I pull them earlier, sometimes not, depends on things like how well theyre doing, whether I want to get mom dried up asap for spaying, etc.

I highly suggest Royal Canin Babycat dry, and fancy feast kitten canned for them to wean onto.

Babycat is amazing stuff, they could use me for advertising this food I'm telling you!

I can't begin to tell you how many kittens came to me malnourished and unhealthy, and fed babycat, everything changed, they grew thick plush fur, bright eyes, strong healthy kids. 

They should have babycat left out for them and then canned for breakfast and dinner, mom too.

I hope you give mom canned once a day now, she needs it and she will love it too.

Any kind is fine really, but try to stick to pate style.

Alrighty, will do. I'll pick some up today.

Yes, that's correct. So 4.5ml at least every 3 hours, I'll keep to it. He's up to 158 grams right now it's slow but steady gaining.

Thanks for the info on weaning! I wasn't sure about when or if mom pretty much does it on her own or not. And thank you for reccomending food, that would've been my next question, haha

You're welcome!

So 158 gms. What is he gaining a day now? Might not have been long enough to know just yet, but since the increase.

I feed him again in the next half hour so I can check what his weight is at then but he gained 6 grams from yesterday.

Do you think he's gaining enough at this rate?

I'm sad to say that today around 11am, Hiccup passed away. He made it to 161 grams. I'm not positive if it was his breathing that caused his passing however it may have played a part. He was 2 hours and 45 minutes shy of being 17 days old. He put up a hell of a fight and I'm deeply saddened by his passing however that tiny kitten has left a mark on my soul that I will never forget.

Thank you all for your advice and help, I'm forever grateful. I'm sure my special little Hiccup appreciated it too.