It is time to transition to raw, but...

I am so confused by everything out there!

I do not have a grinder that can handle bones, and lack the finances to pick one up for a while yet.

I do have a source for chicken hearts and chicken livers.

Can anyone advise me on finding a recipe that will work given those conditions? I want to feed my kitties well, but I am just so lost on figuring out what to do - and I'd rather not start making them foods until I am confident I know what I'm doing. I've even asked the vet and the local pet boutique that advocates raw feeding ... and neither have been able to help me figure this out. Both are excited that I am trying, and have said I'm doing the right thing with the transition method I'm using ... but now that it's time to actually move to full raw they are not helpful. It seems having a source of chicken livers and hearts and lacking a bone grinder is just a puzzling combination????

But both cats have now started picking out the raw chunks of meat that I mix into their wet food, so it is definitely time to put a more concerted effort into figuring out what to do to move them forward!

I have looked at the links in the forum here, but I'm just a nitwit I guess, because I'm still feeling bewildered by it all. So any advice anyone can offer would be very much appreciated. 

Losna said:

 
I am so confused by everything out there!

I do not have a grinder that can handle bones, and lack the finances to pick one up for a while yet.

I do have a source for chicken hearts and chicken livers.

Can anyone advise me on finding a recipe that will work given those conditions? I want to feed my kitties well, but I am just so lost on figuring out what to do - and I'd rather not start making them foods until I am confident I know what I'm doing. I've even asked the vet and the local pet boutique that advocates raw feeding ... and neither have been able to help me figure this out. Both are excited that I am trying, and have said I'm doing the right thing with the transition method I'm using ... but now that it's time to actually move to full raw they are not helpful. It seems having a source of chicken livers and hearts and lacking a bone grinder is just a puzzling combination????

But both cats have now started picking out the raw chunks of meat that I mix into their wet food, so it is definitely time to put a more concerted effort into figuring out what to do to move them forward!

I have looked at the links in the forum here, but I'm just a nitwit I guess, because I'm still feeling bewildered by it all. So any advice anyone can offer would be very much appreciated. 

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@peaches08, @Ritz -- may i ask for your experience for the OP (original poster)?

i don't feed a raw or home cooked diet to my snick, but i do plan on serving a home cooked diet to all future cats of mine. @mschauer -- posted several complete raw recipes, including nutritional info for each recipe -- http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272287/raw-recipe-thread   if you look in the first posting of this thread, you'll see "click here for a directory of printable recipes" in blue lettering -- click there and you'll be able to read and print any or all of those recipes.

what i plan on doing is buying the ground and chunks of raw from hare today -- https://www.hare-today.com/   and then i'll cook it and freeze in batches. i'm thinking that i'll add the supplement(s), probably alnutrin or another complete mix, when i thaw/serve the food -- so nothing of the supplement(s) could be lost from freezing/thawing. oh, and i plan on adding a little extra taurine, because that certainly won't hurt and taurine/getting enough taurine is very important for cats. i don't plan on buying a grinder capable of grinding bones, as they're pretty costly.

but i don't have experience with making/serving either a raw or home cooked diet, so i've asked a couple members who serve their cat(s) a raw diet to share their experience for you.

I'll explain what I do and why I do it.  My cats are BAD about bowl swapping and they inhale their food.  Also, I knew Julie would steal all the liver, Mason would run off with all the choice cuts of meat, Gadget would take off with bone...I needed to keep things balanced even with musical bowls.  I ordered a Tasin grinder ($150 and www.onestopjerkyshop.com) but it was backordered.  My cats were already excited about raw and were sick on *something* in canned so I immediately ordered TC Feline and Better In The Raw premixes.  They supplied the calcium, other nutrients, and even the liver needed to balance the plain raw meat.  So all I did at the time was cut meat into chunks using scissors and adding the premix and water.

Then the grinder came in, so I moved them to ground.  Boy did they love bone, but missed their tasty premix.  A few shakes of parmesan fixed that and now they eat their ground with no problems.  I still chunk some of the meat or add gizzards for some chewing action, but my new rescue isn't quite up to chunks yet so he gets plain ground.

There are some who do bone-in frankenprey, some do boneless frankenprey (using calcium from another source), some grind meat and use a balanced premix, some order ground meat and use a balanced premix, some order all their ground from Hare Today and use Alnutrin/homemade supplement mix and don't feed chunks at all...some do a mix of all these options!  They may feed a ground meal with ground bone for breakfast, then a chicken wing for dinner.  Heart and liver and a piece of meat for breakfast the next day.  That was too complicated for me while I was in nursing school so I went the lazy way and did the grinding and adding a homemade supplement. 

I guess it depends on what you ultimately want to do in the end, and what your cats will eat.  If they will not eat bone-in meals, then you need to figure out a calcium source.  If they won't eat fresh organs, then you need to order in dried ones (or powdered).  If they start just not liking chunks or the musical bowls turns into one eating all the liver and the other eats none, then maybe a premix until you've saved enough for a grinder.  A food processor can take care of the meat, but obviously not bone. 

As you can see there are many different ways to go at feeding raw, you just have to find out what's going to work for you.  A deep freezer is the most expensive investment IMO so start checking out Craigslist now.

Are you saying that you do have a grinder for meat?

If so, you can grind your protein and organs together and then add your supplements and ground eggshell as your calcium source. You are adding supplements, right?

You can order Alnutrin with Calcium, Alnutrin with Eggshell Calcium or if you are using your own supplement receipe instead of a Premix then you can just buy ground Eggshell.

The ground Eggshell is super cheap (I think $5 without shipping) and lasts for a while. I think you only need 1/2 teaspoon per pound of boneless meat but please double check that measurement before taking my word for it.

If you are going boneless, instead of going with the 80/10/5/5 rule, I think you do 85% muscle meat and 15% organs with only HALF being liver and the other half should be any other secreting organ such as kidney, spleen, pancreas. Heart is not an organ by the way, but is considered a muscle meat so do not count heart as part of your organ percentage.

Anyway, that's what I would do if I needed to feed ground food but cannot grind bone, add the appropriate amiunt of Eggshell as my calcium source.

Thanks for the advice!

Tempest and Sinbad definitely prefer chunks of meat to ground, and the vet said that chunks are better for their teeth so I'm thinking I'll just go with that. I use meat shears and just hack into pieces right now as I am transitioning them. But I do have a grinder for boneless meat - well, I have a super power juicer with an attachment for grinding meat. It seems like an odd combo to me, but there it is. But both cats will ignore ground meat, they definitely prefer chunks. 

Do you think this would work mixed with chunked meat and organs? It looks like it would, but never having used anything like this I'm not sure if it would mix with chunks since it specifies ground:  https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=346

I'm glad you mentioned that heart is a muscle meat @Abby2932! I'd thought it was an organ. I will have to re-plan now as I have ready access to liver and hearts but not other organs.   

There's a thriving reptile community around here, maybe I should look into whole prey rather than frankenprey. 

I feed prey model raw, also known as frankenprey.
I agree with the posters: feed which ever style of raw your cat will eat (if at all possible). So if your cats seem to like chunks, then I would go with that method. Ritz likes both ground or chunks.
The link you provided seems like it would work with ground meat to which you've added liver and a secreting organ such as kidney, but no bone. Note that the receipe / proportion provided by HareToday includes one pound of ground organs + liver. So if you can source liver, you'd need a premix that excludes liver but includes secreting organs. I don't know where you live, but beef kidney is available in one of the main chain grocery stores where I live and pork and beef kidney are regularly available in an international supermarket. Higher quality organs might be available at your local farmer's market.
I've thought a little about offering Ritz a mouse or two but chickened out. She loves chicken heads but didn't know what to do with a chicken foot. I'd first buy a package of mice from the local PetCo/PetSmart before investing in a lot of the mice/quail/rabbit.

Sorry! I got confused when you mentioned that they picked out the chunks from their ground, I thought that was because they DIDN'T like the chunks.

Ok, let's back up....if you are going to feed chunks of meat and organs (Frankenprey) but can't do bone, then you can do a BONELESS Frankenprey. Just add the eggshell to the boneless meat and organs.You do not need additional supplements (such as Alnutrin) when you are feeding chunks of meat and organs. Supplements are only needed for ground food because of oxidation. The only supplements that many people give their cats on this diet is egg yolk (for choline and Vitamin D) and fish oil (for Omega 3's).

Lastly, I just want to mention that I'm fairly new at raw feeding myself, so please do more research and don't just make up a diet solely on my suggestions    

Oh yea! Whole prey diet is much easier (albeit more expensive) than figuring out all these other calculations if your cat goes for it!

Sorry @Abby2932, I was unclear! They don't yet recognize raw meat as food on its own, but if I put it on top of their canned food or put a treat on top of it, they'll happily eat it. Once they get a lick they realize it's good eating. Quite often I'll find they've eaten all the meat, left the canned food, and are begging for more. That's why I decided I really need to figure this out, they are clearly ready to eat more raw meat!

I would really like them to eat whole food, whether its entire mice or chunks of larger meat, probably a combination of both, as everything I have seen and heard indicates this is healthier for them. I shall have to ponder more and keep reading, but I think to start I will see what happens if I give them a side of chicken ribs with breast attached. There's a reptile show this weekend, so I may pop over and buy some feeder mice and see if they'll eat those too.

Thanks @mickNsnicks2mom, @peaches08, @Abby2932, @Ritz! You've been a huge help. I'm no longer feeling lost and confused and am able to start making some sense of all the stuff I've been and am reading now!   

How much raw are they getting currently?  Technically one should only feed up to 15% of the diet as not balanced.  Now, that could also mean a full day's worth of raw without supplementing, or measuring out the raw and canned to figure it out.  Granted it takes time for deficiencies to develop and sometimes it is advised for a person to feed a diet of plain boiled chicken for example for a couple of weeks to let a tummy settle, but I'd hate to not mention the 15% rule and some lurker think that they can feed 50% of every single meal as plain raw meat and then blame raw feeding as to why their cat isn't doing well later.  You're doing a great job of introducing raw and I don't want you to think I'm coming down on you, I'm just saying for your own cats' benefit as well as any confusion that may happen to a lurker's cats. 

Keep asking questions, and I'm jealous of you having feeder mice so close by!  I think my original 3 would eat them, my rescue doesn't chew at the moment.

Right now they are getting a chicken heart or two depending on size of the heart each with dinner. Every few days I give them a chicken liver and chunks of chicken as a treat, and am slowly increasing the size of the chunks. They can eat chicken chunks about the size of steak fries right now, but prefer it a little smaller.

Tempest just LOVES the liver. Sinbad doesn't seem to love one thing over another, he'll suck anything up if I put it in his food bowl. He reminds me of a dog sometimes, he'll follow at my heels when I'm cooking dinner eating up every scrap I accidentally drop. Ok, as I type this, I am realizing that he especially loves beef and cheese. I should see if the farm where I buy my meat will sell me cow organs. ^.^

Do you eat meat?  What about buying chicken wings whole (drummette, wing flat, and wing tip)?  Cut off the wing tips and see if they will eat them.  Eventually, move up to wing flats.  I've read where many cats crunch the bones apart in the "sack" of meat and skin and then swallow the sack.  You'd have to cut the wing flats horizontally, between the 2 bones.  Owning a good pair of poultry shears doesn't coat a lot, $15 maybe, and is a great investment in raw feeding whether you do prey model raw or ground.  I use them to make chunks, to cut up roasts to fit into the grinder, and I've read where big mice need to be cut sometimes.  Plus I buy chicken wings as I mentioned earlier to reduce costs, so I cut them into drummettes and wing flats first.  Way easier on the hands than kitchen scissors.

Ah, that's a great thought! I'm roasting a chicken on saturday, actually, so I will just try them on the wing tips then. Can they eat chicken necks? Should I try a piece of that as well?

Forgot to answer the question - I own 2 pairs of poultry shears. I roast 2-3 chickens a week, and a duck every so often to get its fat, so needed them. A local farm sells whole chickens for less than you can buy breasts at the grocery store, so I buy them in bulk from the farm and chop them up as needed.

We do a bit of everything, we have five raw fed cats that all have preferences so........

I make fresh minced up liver, kidney, some heart and some muscle meat, then add to this mix cut chunked up meat and heart plus yolks of egg. To this I add TCFeline or Felini complete or correct ratios of both to get the flavour but not the cost. They also have non eviserated de feathered quail, pigeon Breast as a treat and also Docs/ mice and DOQuail as a main.

I don't give them the organs whole as mine tend to leave them and then I don't know where we are on balancing the diet, thus they are ground coarsely into the mix of minced meat

It took me a few days, but I got them to eat chicken wings today! Well, little pieces. Now I will watch the litter box to make sure the bones don't cause them problems, but I am so excited!!

I've discovered they love wild boar. Both of them. I got them to eat the chicken wings by "seasoning" them with raw boar. I don't think they wanted the chicken itself, they seemed to eat it more because it had residual boar flavors on it and they wanted every spec of the boar meat.   

Boar!!? Where do you get boar (do you live in the USA?)
Ritz has had ground Buffalo (available only ground in the grocery store) and Llama (HareToday). Loved both of them, would probably like Boar.

Ritz said:

Boar!!? Where do you get boar (do you live in the USA?)
Ritz has had ground Buffalo (available only ground in the grocery store) and Llama (HareToday). Loved both of them, would probably like Boar.

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There is a natural grocery store near me that sells seemingly random frozen meat. I've seen everything from the run of the mill chicken, duck and turkey to uncommon like bison and buffalo to the outright strange and unusual like boar, ostrich and alligator. Sinbad went absolutely nutty when I cooked a ham, so when I saw the boar I couldn't resist picking it up to try. Turned out Tempest liked it too!

Unfortunately I won't be able to purchase it reliably. They only buy from naturally run ranches and farms - no chemicals, additives, hormones, etc added to the animal's diet - so they have limited stock as their sources can raise. But the pet store we use stocks Orijen, so I can at least get them freeze dried boar treats. http://www.orijen.ca/products/cat-food/freeze-dried-cat-treats/alberta-wild-boar/

Oh, I'm in the US. Kansas to be more specific.

I'm envious. I can get goat and frozen rabbit/quail, but nothing more exotic. A former colleague gave me some venison; I'm rotating it into Ritz' food occasionally. Want to make it last.
My nephew hunts--without a lot of success, I'm afraid. He knows I fed Ritz raw, and would give me some if he caught anything.

I don't know where you live, but you can look here to see if there's one near you:  http://www.naturalgrocers.com/store-locations

Do you have any advice on fish oil? I went to look for it, and there's so much variation. krill? mackeral? salmon? cod? And most of them seem to have added flavors.

There some threads addressing this question. I personally occasionally supplement with Krill Oil, no name brand. I cut the capsule open and put it on her food. It smells, and the capsule is hard.
I should see if Ritz would eat a sardine. Personally, I'd rather she eat the oil than it come in a capsule, but that's just me. She use to be 'addicted' to Fancy Feast Classic Seafood flavor, but I once gave her a piece of fish and she ignored it. This, a cat who does eat anything (else).
Here is another thread.
I think what oil you ultimately decide upon depends on which type your cat likes.
PS And I live in Annapolis, Maryland; work in Washington, DC. Good idea about treats--there is a holistic / high end pet store near where I live, and I've bought venison freeze dried treats there.

I'm envious too!  You'd think where I live I'd have more options.

I use plain ole fish oil from Nature Made or Nature's Bounty, 1200 mg.  It's the same stuff I take myself.  I like oil from smaller fish to reduce mercury concerns (I think using trusted names helps too).  Krill is a terrific option, some just find it a bit pricy.  Personally, I find high end salmon oil to not be worth the cost.  If I were to spend $$, it would be on krill oil.  Krill had no effect on me (I have lupus), so I haven't bothered to purchase anymore.