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Vitamin E? Fish Oil?

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
For those of you that supplement, what Vitamin E and/or fish oil do you use? And how much do you add (to how much food?)

Non-synthetic Vitamin E seems to come mostly from wheat germ or wheat grass or something. I'm going to add salmon oil to the sardines I feed weekly to bump the Omega 3s, but the frankenprey diet still seems to be light in Vitamin E. Thanks.
post #2 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

For those of you that supplement, what Vitamin E and/or fish oil do you use? And how much do you add (to how much food?)
Non-synthetic Vitamin E seems to come mostly from wheat germ or wheat grass or something. I'm going to add salmon oil to the sardines I feed weekly to bump the Omega 3s, but the frankenprey diet still seems to be light in Vitamin E. Thanks.


Hi Laurie,

 

I look for soy-free Vitamin E, so this is what I use: GNC's Natural E 400 100% natural d-alpha capsules [I get these at: http://www.drugstore.com/gnc-natural-e-400-100-natural-d-alpha-form-capsules/qxp42503 ]

"No sugar, no starch, no artificial colors, no artificial flavors, no preservatives, sodium free, no wheat, no gluten, no corn, no soy, no dairy, yeast free."

Vitamin E I add at feeding time and my kids go through approximately a pound a day of raw. I add 200mg (half a capsule) per pound of food.

 

I use Krill Oil because my kitties do not like salmon or other fish oils. I also use Krill Oil because it has more omega-3 compared to salmon oil (my Maxie has EGC, so I try to limit the more inflammatory omega-6). I add the oil of one capsule per pound of food at feeding time. Just a note: Those little buggers are hard to pierce, so I soak them in warm water to soften them up. Also, a lot of companies are now adding flavorings to the capsules, such as lemon, for humans that don't like the taste/smell (which I had never noticed...!). That gets a big "ARG!" out of me. I recently bought Natrol Omega-3 Krill Oil 500mg (http://www.drugstore.com/natrol-omega-3-krill-oil-500mg-softgels/qxp380013 ), opened the bottle and got a huge whiff of lemon. No where on the label was lemon listed, so I emptied the bottle and there was a little can of lemon scent in there. I put all the capsules in an empty container without a lid and the lemon scent disappeared after a couple days. At least the capsules weren't coated with the stuff like some of them are now. biggrin.gif

 

HTH a bit,

 

post #3 of 32
Thread Starter 
Thank you!

If you don't mind my asking, how did you come up with the amounts?

Dr. Pierson recommends 400 IU (268mg) of Vitamin E per 3 pounds of food (90mg per pound), and 5,000mg (2,000mg if your cats don't like it) of fish oil per 3 pounds of food (1,667mg per pound), and it looks like you add 500mg per pound?
post #4 of 32

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Thank you!
If you don't mind my asking, how did you come up with the amounts?
Dr. Pierson recommends 400 IU (268mg) of Vitamin E per 3 pounds of food (90mg per pound), and 5,000mg (2,000mg if your cats don't like it) of fish oil per 3 pounds of food (1,667mg per pound), and it looks like you add 500mg per pound?

 


Hi Laurie,

 

I have looked at many, many websites and read books for cats with diet recommendations and the addition of supplements over the past 7 years: from Michelle Bernard, Sandy Arora, Dr. Pierson, Lynn Curtis, and many others and had to make a judgment call as to the amount of Vitamin E that I thought "best." (Their amounts varied from 3400IU per 18lbs of meat to 400IU per 3lbs of meat.) Maxie has EGC, Abby is getting older (he'll be 16 this year and as spry as a kitty half his age), and Izzy had physical issues due to abuse as a tiny kitten, so I add a bit extra to combat the oxidation of fats, as an antioxidant, and because E found in meat degrades over time from being frozen. Also, it is my understanding that with Vitamin E, although a fat soluble vitamin, that one has more leeway as opposed to the other fat soluble vitamins that can cause toxic levels to be reached. I also add somewhat more because it works in conjunction with Selenium as an antioxidant and immunostimulator.

 

I use 500mg per pound of meat of Krill Oil because of its high antioxidant properties and higher omega-3 content (omega-6 is inflammatory, which I don't want--there's enough of that in the actual skin and fat of the meat), which especially Maxie needs for his EGC (http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/starnes/index.php ). Even if my bubbies didn't turn there noses up at Salmon and other fish body oils, I would still use Krill Oil just because of the more potent antioxidant properties.

 

If I think about it, which is why I'm glad you brought this up, regarding Vit E: sometimes it is half a capsule, sometimes less--it's hard to add an exact amount when opening the capsule and sometimes there is more than a pound of meat in the baggie (I don't weigh each bag as I am spooning the meat mixture into the bags).

 

So, do you think I'm whacko, or what? biggrin.gif

post #5 of 32
Thread Starter 
Well, I think we're potentially all whacko! laughing02.gif

Thanks for the detailed explanation. For Gary and I, I did purchase Krill Oil for the omega 3. I don't know if Blakkatz information is outdated or what, but I based the decision for wild caught salmon oil off the discussion of cats and fatty acids in the chapter she has up from her book Raising Cats Naturally, here: http://www.blakkatz.com/fat.pdf (Michelle Bernard).

...which also leaves me wondering about the Vitamin E. laughing02.gif The d-alpha tocopheral, from what I can find, is semi-synthetic. I don't know what that means - I'm very new to the whole nutrition thing. Cat predation is my normal area of research outside of work.

I used to argue against feeding raw, so color me whacko. But one of my arguments against it was that the proteins we feed have nothing like the nutrient profile of cats' natural prey. So I don't know if the AAFCO recommendations are just "off" for Vitamin E or what (and I definitely do not think the AAFCO is the end-all be-all of ANYTHING at all). Since meat is so low in Vit E, I don't really see how cats could consume that amount of vitamin E in their natural diet: unless organs we're not feeding are really high in vitamin E - which I guess is possible.

And I think the overall problem with the diet is that it is just too high in Omega 6. That's easy to understand - it's from factory farmed meat fed grains, not grass - or vegetarian fed chickens (that normally eat a lot of bugs) and proteins that are naturally higher in omega 6 than cats' natural prey anyway - and that omega 6 profile is boosted by lots of corn and soy in their diets. I didn't re-read that discussion of fatty acids until last night, but I have not been providing skin and I have been trimming fat in all the meat I feed, because I was convinced the meats we feed are just too high in fat vs. cats' natural diet.

But this is what we have to work with. So I'm going to continue to lower the omega 6s as much as I can with the fat trimming, and we're going to make the rounds of the farmer's markets that sell the locally raised meats (goat, lamb, rabbit, poultry), and we'll see if we can find a way to provide primarily pastured poultry and grass fed/pastured goat/lamb/rabbit. I found these at http://www.eatwild.com Fortunately, there are a number of farms in Northern NJ raising grass-fed/pastured animals.

But I am going to supplement with the wild caught salmon oil. Dr. Pierson's rec works out to 104mg per ounce. I feed approx 9 ounces per meal: that means I need approx 940mg salmon oil per meal. So I'll just use most of one capsule each meal. It's basically a few drops on each cat's bowl - a little more for those that eat 1.5oz, a little less for those that eat 1oz. And I'll continue to feed the sardines weekly.

The Vitamin E... I'm going to keep researching.

But I appreciate your information/assistance!
post #6 of 32
Thread Starter 
OK - all I can find is that everyone recommends natural Vitamin E. In some places, d-alpha tocopherol is identified as natural - in others, as semi-natural. dontknow.gif I can also only find it as derived "from plant sources." laughing02.gif So I simply bought the Liquid Vitamin E made by Solgar from the health food store. It's "mixed tocopherol complex" made from wheat germ oil and sunflower oil. It's Vitamin E as d-Alpha Tocopherol plus d-Beta, d-Delta and d-Gamma Tocopherols: http://www.solgar.com/SolgarProducts/Liquid-Vitamin-E.htm

I didn't know there was a 2 oz with a dropper. I bought the 4 oz, and used a dropper to measure. Fortunately, I came up with the same information: 20 IU per drop.

I have three cats eating 3 oz a day and 4 cats eating 4.5oz a day. Using Dr. Pierson's recommendation for 400 IU per 3 pounds (48oz), that's 8 IU per ounce. (Technically 8.3). That means the 3 ounce eaters need 25 IU/day, and the 4.5oz eaters need 37.5 oz/day. I figure I'll add one drop to the am meal of the 3 ounce eaters, and give them an extra drop once a week (I'll add it to the sardines). The 4oz eaters, I'll just give them a drop in the AM meal, and one drop in the PM meal.

smile.gif
post #7 of 32

We supplement with Ascenta Feline Omega 3's. I found it at a specialty pet food store and its made from anchovies and sardines. It is a independently tested brand which if its not human-grade, you want to make sure its been independently tested to insure quality since fish oil can easily be rancid if it comes from low quality non-human grade fish as much of it does for cat food. This brand contains Vit. E already it in as well, and I read that the recommended daily dose of Vit E. is 14UI/lb and that cats need Vitamin E to synthesize fat and since many are deficient, if they are not getting Vit. E while getting Omega 3's, they may not be able to absorb it properly. Their are also no known Vit. E toxicities in cats and dogs (link posted below). We give ours 1.25mL (which is recommended if your cat is under 22lbs/10kg) every morning with a regular serving of wet food. Also if you are supplementing with Omega-3's it is often recommended that if your cat is over-weight or watching its weight, that you feed a little bit less food with it, since its adding fat to your cats regular diet.

 

 

Here's some links that you may find useful:

 

http://www.ascentaanimalhealth.com/products/feline/feline-omega-3#overvie

 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+1400&aid=709

 

 

Another good brand is Nordic Naturals Fish which is from Cod Liver Oil.

 

Here's the link: http://www.littlebigcat.com/holistic-pet-mall/moxxor-omega-3s/

 

Also make sure that when you do make a purchase, that you keep your Omega's out of sunlight, for they can spoil and loose their effect. It also takes at least a month before you'll see the benefits of omega 3's in their skin and coat.

 

Hope this helps!

 

P.S - An omega-3 supplement has done wonders for our cats already, it was so worth it =)

post #8 of 32
Thread Starter 
Thanks!

Since we made the switch to frankenprey, I have been feeding them one "snack" of sardines each week and a "snack" of 4 eggs twice a week. But the meats are Omega 6 heavy and Vitamin E light, so I want to fix the balance - and the one snack of sardines doesn't do it. But I don't want to feed more of them. I feel comfortable with the wild caught (human grade) Salmon oil, given the link I already provided above, so I needed to find a separate vitamin E solution. smile.gif
post #9 of 32
Well, I seem to have found my source of Omega-3 and vit. E for the kids here clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif
Green-Lipped Mussel Oil
The brand I chose was Tripernol . I had been told about Moxxor, but upon doing some research, very little of it, besides the marketing and the price tag is actually Green Lipped Mussel - the great majority is Hoki Fish oil and I believe Grape Seed Oil (might be Olive).
1 gel cap of Tripernol has the equivalent to 16.5 capsules of Maxxor rolleyes.gif

The gel cap is little compared to fish oil, and the BEST part of all - it is not fishy at all clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif In fact, I tasted laughing02.gif It barely has a taste, so even super-finicky Lucky is having her Omega-3 now clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif
I started with dividing a gel cap in between the 3 of them per meal - giving them 1 full cap a day, just to make sure they will not have any ill effects, and to have them get used to the taste. So fa so good.
In a couple of days I will just give them a full cap in the morning....
It also has a bit of Vit. E 0.675mg per cap - don't know how much that is in UI.

Anyways, Just wanted to post it in here, if anyone has kitties out there who can't deal with fish oil (like mine), or hate the taste of it (like mine) laughing02.gif
post #10 of 32
Thread Starter 
I have a converter somewhere for the mg to the iu thing for Vitamin E, though it depends upon which type it is. So if you can see what kind of alpha tocopherol it is, I can figure it out. smile.gif

But woohoo.gif on the find, Carolina! clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif I was really hoping Bugsy would be able to tolerate the green lipped mussel oil!
post #11 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

I have a converter somewhere for the mg to the iu thing for Vitamin E, though it depends upon which type it is. So if you can see what kind of alpha tocopherol it is, I can figure it out. smile.gif
But woohoo.gif on the find, Carolina! clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif I was really hoping Bugsy would be able to tolerate the green lipped mussel oil!
Thank YOU Laurie, for bringing me to it clap.gifclap.gifclap.gif
Hopefully there will be no ill effects, but I don't think so.....
It is d-alpha tocopherol
post #12 of 32

Just my 2-cents here regarding Tripernol Green-Lipped Mussel Oil... To be on the safe side, I wouldn't give anything that contains soy in any form to kitties--especially double the mg of GLMO in the ingredient list. It has been connected to hyperthyroidism in humans and thought to be a strong contributing factor to hyper-T and other diseases in kitties because it affects the thyroid and other organs. Kitties do not have the liver enzymes to deactivate the phytoestrogens contained in soy, which is scary, so I try to avoid it if at all possible.

 

http://www.catinfo.org/ I know Dr. Lisa is talking about cat food here, but I still try to avoid soy in anything given to my kitties, including supplements.

"Soy contains phytoestrogens and soy also negatively influences the thyroid gland. Given how common hyperthyroidism is in the cat, soy has no business being in cat food. Unfortunately, soy is a common ingredient used by many pet food manufacturers - especially Purina - because it enhances their profit margin.

When considering allergies, the ingredient list is useful since we don't care how much of the offending ingredient is in the food.  The bottom line is that we don't want any of the ingredient to be present.  (Fish/seafood, beef, lamb, corn, wheat, and soy tend to be the most hyperallergenic ingredients for the cat.)"

 

Sorry for the negative input for this product. rub.gif

post #13 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhollyCat View Post

Just my 2-cents here regarding Tripernol Green-Lipped Mussel Oil... To be on the safe side, I wouldn't give anything that contains soy in any form to kitties--especially double the mg of GLMO in the ingredient list. It has been connected to hyperthyroidism in humans and thought to be a strong contributing factor to hyper-T and other diseases in kitties because it affects the thyroid and other organs. Kitties do not have the liver enzymes to deactivate the phytoestrogens contained in soy, which is scary, so I try to avoid it if at all possible.

http://www.catinfo.org/ I know Dr. Lisa is talking about cat food here, but I still try to avoid soy in anything given to my kitties, including supplements.
"Soy contains phytoestrogens and soy also negatively influences the thyroid gland. Given how common hyperthyroidism is in the cat, soy has no business being in cat food. Unfortunately, soy is a common ingredient used by many pet food manufacturers - especially Purina - because it enhances their profit margin.


When considering allergies, the ingredient list is useful since we don't care how much of the offending ingredient is in the food.  The bottom line is that we don't want any of the ingredient to be present.  (Fish/seafood, beef, lamb, corn, wheat, and soy tend to be the most hyperallergenic ingredients for the cat.)"


 
Sorry for the negative input for this product. rub.gif
Soy? Alright then..... and where are you seeing Soy on Tripernol? Are you saying this because of Lecithin? You do know that Lecithin and Soy are not the same thing, right (even though yes, lecithin CAN be extracted from Soy, Lecithin is not soy)?
Quote:
Lecithin

Q: Could you please tell me the source of the lecithin that is listed in the Wysong Geriatrx™ dry cat food? I am attempting to eliminate all soy products from my cat's diet & have recently discovered that lecithin is most often extracted from soy.

A: Our lecithin comes from a variety of grain, legume, and animal sources. In some formulas soy could be a source.

Before abandoning lecithin, please do a search on the Internet plugging in something like "lecithin health benefits." Note that lecithin is critical for neurological health and is a part of virtually every cell membrane in the body. On the other hand, see if you can find one scientific study that demonstrates that lecithin fed in variety at reasonable levels - whether from soy or not - has ever caused harm to animal or man. Our foods are designed by doctorate-level scientists and have been fed to tens of thousands of animals through multiple generations for nearly 30 years with fantastic results, and NO reports of toxicity.

Be careful of the myths and lore that pervade the pet food marketplace.

Remember, anything can be toxic if in high enough dosage and fed continuously. Even oxygen and water can be toxic. The dose makes the poison. Follow the Wysong Optimal Health Program™ if health is your objective. Feeding a singular food that does not contain soy or any of the other popular boogeyman ingredients that are being promoted by marketers will not achieve pet health.http://www.wysong.net/pet-health-and-nutrition/lecithin.php
Quote:
Adding lecithin, a supplement made of choline and inositol, will regulate the nutrients in the cat's body. Lecithin is highly caloric in nature and therefore can increase a cat's weight. Cutting back on lecithin to reduce the weight in a feline is fine, provided it eats a well-balanced diet. Administer 1 to 2 tsp. of mineral mix a day with meals.

Read more: Natural Vitamins for Cats | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6953622_natural-vitamins-cats.html#ixzz1vwfdpefP
Quote:
Diet High in Fibers

Cat hair is difficult to digest by the cat’s system, especially when the hair gets mixed with other foods and causes an intestinal occlusion. To make the hair and food more digestible, the cat has to have a diet that is high in fibers. Consult your vet to recommend you a food that has an optimal amount of fibers. An excessive amount of fibers may cause problems in the digestive tract of the feline. Pumpkin is a natural food that is rich in fibers and may be fed to cats to prevent the formation of hairballs. Get some canned pumpkin that doesn’t contain sugar.

In addition to fibers, the food must also contain a fat emulsifier, which will help the digestive process. You may add soy lecithin to your cat’s food or ask the vet to recommend a different type of fat emulsifier.

Read more: Diet Recommendations for Preventing Cat Hairballs - VetInfo

You will see good things about it, and "bad things" about it.... But one must remember, Lecithin is not soy. While it is generally extracted from soy, it is still a powerful antioxidant and it has its health benefits.

Furthermore, on a molecular level, Lecithin is a Phosphatidylcholine, while the phytoestrogens found in soy are Soy Isoflavones. They do not act alike, they have completely different molecular structures, and Phosphatidylcholines, as in the Lecithin case, are not associated with hormonal activities. It is basically a lipid (oil) with Choline as a base - Choline is highly beneficial for cats.
Edited by Carolina - 5/25/12 at 9:36pm
post #14 of 32

Because Bio-Mer isn't too forth coming with ingredients, I found the ingredients here: http://www.wheyprotein.com.au/info_Tripernol.aspx

Ingredients     Each softgel contains:
167mg Green Lipped Mussel Oil Extract from Perna canaliculus
333mg Organic Soy lecithin Phospholipid
0.675mg Vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol)

 

To each their own I guess. And yes I know the difference; I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, but it is derived from soy. smile.gif I'm not feeding soy in any form to my kitties--I'm not willing to take the chance of it being detrimental to them. And this product has way more soy lecithin than it has of what is supposed to be the main ingredient of the product. It is very rare that lecithin is not going to be soy based, so I wanted to check to make sure.

 

 

Quote:
In addition to fibers, the food must also contain a fat emulsifier, which will help the digestive process. You may add soy lecithin to your cat’s food or ask the vet to recommend a different type of fat emulsifier.

 

For hairballs I would use egg yolk lecithin, not soy derived, as an emulsifier.

 

ETA:

Quote:
Furthermore, on a molecular level, Lecithin is a Phosphatidylcholine, while the phytoestrogens found in soy are Soy Isoflavones. They do not act alike, they have completely different molecular structures, and Phosphatidylcholines, as in the Lecithin case, are not associated with hormonal activities. It is basically a lipid (oil) with Choline as a base - Choline is highly beneficial for cats.

 

I hear what you're saying, but they are still derived from soy. Furthermore, if the Choline was meat- or liver-based, then I would agree--because cats, being carnivores, have little (if any) ability to derive benefit from plant-based nutrients.


Edited by WhollyCat - 5/25/12 at 11:19pm
post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhollyCat View Post

Because Bio-Mer isn't too forth coming with ingredients, I found the ingredients here: http://www.wheyprotein.com.au/info_Tripernol.aspx
Ingredients     Each softgel contains:

167mg Green Lipped Mussel Oil Extract from Perna canaliculus

333mg Organic Soy lecithin Phospholipid

0.675mg Vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol)

To each their own I guess. And yes I know the difference; I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, but it is derived from soy. smile.gif I'm not feeding soy in any form to my kitties--I'm not willing to take the chance of it being detrimental to them. And this product has way more soy lecithin than it has of what is supposed to be the main ingredient of the product. It is very rare that lecithin is not going to be soy based, so I wanted to check to make sure.



For hairballs I would use egg yolk lecithin, not soy derived, as an emulsifier.

ETA:

I hear what you're saying, but they are still derived from soy. Furthermore, if the Choline was meat- or liver-based, then I would agree--because cats, being carnivores, have little (if any) ability to derive benefit from plant-based nutrients.
I see nothing "not forthcoming" on the ingredients.
Soy Lecithin, again, is not soy. The same way Ascorbic Acid, a form of Vitamin C, which can be derived from orange Juice, is not orange Juice.
Again, I repeat - Lecithin, no matter where it comes from, is a molecule - once it is extracted, it is what it is - Lecithin. Sure, theirs come from Soy, but it is still lecithin, no matter where it is coming from. Your kitty is not digesting soy - your kitty is taking an extracted supplement - there is a major difference.
That has to be understood here. Same as taking a vit. E supplement.... It can be derived from a plant - once it is extracted in its pure form, it doesn't matter. The cat is not digesting and metabolizing the plant to extract that vitamin - it is ingesting in its pure form.
It also has to be understood WHAT causes thyroid imbalances in soy - it is not Lecithin. They are not in the "same basket". That is just being simplistic, IMHO.
As I said, Lecithin is a Phosphatidylcholine, while the phytoestrogens found in soy are Soy Isoflavones, which affects the body differently. Lecithin doesn't affect hormone levels as do the Isoflavones. This is not a matter of "to each its own", or a matter of a cat being a carnivore.
All my cats eat raw, all my cats are carnivores..... But I also understand what a compound is, how different molecules react in the body, and how they are not different, once extracted in its pure form, or synthesized, no matter where they come from. As long as their molecules are the same - it doesn't matter if that lecithin comes from egg yolk or soy, or whatever - it is lecithin.
IMHO attention needs to be paid when saying "cats are carnivore" and can not digest plant-based nutrients - that is not true.
Cats can not digest fruits and vegetables - from there to say they can't metabolize vitamins extracted from them, and given to them in its pure form is simply not correct IMHO.
Cats do metabolize Calcium from seaweed just fine, Vitamins just as well, extracts, and plenty of supplements, - when given in its pure form - what they can't do, is digest plants, fruits and vegetables, and from that food metabolize those nutrients. That they can't do as they don't have the necessary enzymes to digest plant-based foods. However, supplements and vitamins, when pure, don't require those enzymes to be broken down and absorbed; thus kitties metabolize them just fine.
Edited by Carolina - 5/26/12 at 1:08am
post #16 of 32
Thread Starter 
Jules, I'm not sure why you think Bio-mer isn't forthcoming about the ingredients? The information in the link you provide is from the Bio-mer website https://www.biomer.com/tripernol.html

But that little nit-picky thing aside wink.gif , I don't know anything about soy lecithin or the issues. I did some quick googling, and Carolina, I found this. LiveStrong usually has very good information:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/524606-what-are-the-dangers-of-soy-lecithin-ingestion/

Now - I don't know the difference between soy lecithin and soy lecithin phospholipids. Is that just another way of saying soy lecithin? dontknow.gif

Here is a discussion of soy lecithin in an excerpt from Kaayla Daniel's book: The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food (New Trends, Spring 2004): http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/soy-lecithin-from-sludge-to-profit

The LiveStrong article seems to indicate there is basis for concern. The excerpt from the author that brought attention to the problems with soy - I can't tell if there's an issue with lecithin itself or not. dontknow.gif Doesn't SEEM to be. dontknow.gif

So I looked up "The difference between soy lecithin and lecithin phospholipids" and found this: http://www.ehow.com/info_8378350_difference-between-soy-lecithin-isoflavones.html

This makes it seem the isoflavanones are the problem, and they are not a part of the lecithin. dontknow.gif
post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Jules, I'm not sure why you think Bio-mer isn't forthcoming about the ingredients? The information in the link you provide is from the Bio-mer website https://www.biomer.com/tripernol.html
But that little nit-picky thing aside wink.gif , I don't know anything about soy lecithin or the issues. I did some quick googling, and Carolina, I found this. LiveStrong usually has very good information:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/524606-what-are-the-dangers-of-soy-lecithin-ingestion/
Now - I don't know the difference between soy lecithin and soy lecithin phospholipids. Is that just another way of saying soy lecithin? dontknow.gif
Here is a discussion of soy lecithin in an excerpt from Kaayla Daniel's book: The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food (New Trends, Spring 2004): http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/soy-lecithin-from-sludge-to-profit
The LiveStrong article seems to indicate there is basis for concern. The excerpt from the author that brought attention to the problems with soy - I can't tell if there's an issue with lecithin itself or not. dontknow.gif Doesn't SEEM to be. dontknow.gif
So I looked up "The difference between soy lecithin and lecithin phospholipids" and found this: http://www.ehow.com/info_8378350_difference-between-soy-lecithin-isoflavones.html
This makes it seem the isoflavanones are the problem, and they are not a part of the lecithin. dontknow.gif
Well, I have a problem with the article from Livestrong - soy Lecithin contains no isoflavanones, and no phytoestrogens.
And yes, isoflavanones are the problem - Lecithin, for being a soy derivative, gets the bad reputation by proxy.
They are completely different, with different functions on the body - the only thing that they have in common is, both come from Soy.
As for phospholipids, Lecithin has it in its composition.
Edited by Carolina - 5/26/12 at 8:59am
post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina View Post

Well, I have a problem with the article from Livestrong - soy Lecithin contains no isoflavanones, and no phytoestrogens.

Yeah, that's why I said LiveStrong usually has good info - because this information seems to be conflicting with "the" expert on the problems with soy - author of The Whole Soy Story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina 
And yes, isoflavanones are the problem - Lecithin, for being a soy derivative, gets the bad reputation by proxy.
Which was the understanding I was getting from the other information on lecithin. agree.gif


But interesting discussion.
post #19 of 32

I would have some concern about the soy component of this product also. It seems to me that with regards to product ingredient lists "soy lecithin" and "soy lecithin phospholipids" are used synonymously and soy lecithin is a by product of soy oil production. Maybe "soy lecithin phospholipids" means that the fatty acids have been extracted from soy lecithin?

 

Regardless of that, my big problem with the product is that it just says it contains "omega3s" without specifying which ones. That is important because ALA is an omega3 that is abundant in plants like soy but which is not very well utilized by cats. Fish oil supplements usually specify the amount of EPA and DHA their product has. This is what raw feeders should look for because those are the omega3s cats can utilize. Humans can synthesize EPA and DHA from ALA but cats can't. The USDA nutrient database entry for soy lecithin oil, which I would think would at least contain whatever they are referring to as soy lecithin phospholipids, shows that it has no EPA or DHA at all:

 

Soy Lecithin Oil

 

Basically, I wouldn't use any product as an omega3 supplement in raw food for a cat unless it explicitly states which and how much of each omega3s are in the product and then only if the omega3s were prominently EPA and DHA.

post #20 of 32
Thread Starter 
Good point. The pills contain 167mg of green lipped mussel oil.

In trying to find out the DHA EPA composition of green lipped mussel oil, I found this very interesting article: http://www.worldwidehealth.com/health-article-DHA-Krill-Oil-GreenLipped-Mussel-Which-is-Best.html

I'll keep looking, but in trashing Moxxor as a green-lipped mussel oil supplement, they provide the information on how much DHA is in green-lipped mussels:

(Again, this discussion is in regards to Moxxor, not Tripernol)
Quote:
This story actually gets worse. The essential fatty acids in the product are mostly from Hoki fish oil, not green-lipped muscle. Each 150 mg softgel capsule of the product contains a proprietary blend of Hoki fish oil and green-lipped muscle, amounting to 106 mg of fatty acids per capsule. Of the 106 mg, there are 16 mg of EPA and 19.5 mg of DHA. Most of these essential fatty acids are from the Hoki fish oil, since the company has stated that its green-lipped muscle oil is 3% DHA. If it were all from green-lipped muscle the 106 mg would yield 3.18 mg of DHA.

Based on the C of As on the company’s website and various components of the oils, it is possible to reverse engineer an approximation of their proprietary formula. Doing the math suggests that one of their 150 mg capsules is 44 mg white grape seed extract, 37 mg green-lipped muscle oil, and 69 mg Hoki oil. This means that the amount of DHA per capsule from green-lipped muscle is approximately 1.11 mg - i.e., virtually none.

The Tripernol has 167mg of green-lipped mussel oil in it. If 106mg of green-lipped mussel oil has 3.18mg of DHA, then the Tripernol has approximately 5mg of DHA in it.

And the salmon oil has ROUGHLY 120mg of DHA.

Is that right? 1000mg of salmon oil in a capsule, 12% DHA. And the EPA is about 10%, so 100mg. Total Omega 3s are 30%, but the 8% are other omega 3s. I split 21,000mg of salmon oil weekly between 8 cats. That's about 45mg of DHA a day per cat.
post #21 of 32
I can't say I've done a lot of research on the matter but I did read someplace that while green lipped mussel oil is an excellent source of omegas3 it is very expensive. Seems to me that companies are trying to cash in on the good press the green lipped mussel oil has been getting but are diluting their products with other oils to make them affordable.
post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post

I would have some concern about the soy component of this product also. It seems to me that with regards to product ingredient lists "soy lecithin" and "soy lecithin phospholipids" are used synonymously and soy lecithin is a by product of soy oil production. Maybe "soy lecithin phospholipids" means that the fatty acids have been extracted from soy lecithin?

Regardless of that, my big problem with the product is that it just says it contains "omega3s" without specifying which ones. That is important because ALA is an omega3 that is abundant in plants like soy but which is not very well utilized by cats. Fish oil supplements usually specify the amount of EPA and DHA their product has. This is what raw feeders should look for because those are the omega3s cats can utilize. Humans can synthesize EPA and DHA from ALA but cats can't. The USDA nutrient database entry for soy lecithin oil, which I would think would at least contain whatever they are referring to as soy lecithin phospholipids, shows that it has no EPA or DHA at all:

Soy Lecithin Oil

Basically, I wouldn't use any product as an omega3 supplement in raw food for a cat unless it explicitly states which and how much of each omega3s are in the product and then only if the omega3s were prominently EPA and DHA.
Sure..... But I am relying on the green-lipped mussels for O-3, not on Soy Lecithin dontknow.gif As far as I know, green-lipped mussel is not plant based, and can be utilized by cats.....
So.... it is very simple.....
My cats can't deal with fish oil. Period. So Green lipped mussels it is.... and it comes with lecithin. The other option is to get one that has much less green lipped mussels and just as much vegetable source oil.
Sure.... If your cats can deal with fish oil, more power to you..... mine can't, and I am happy to have found a source of omega. Afraid of lecithin? Nope.
post #23 of 32
Thread Starter 
Well, that's what it boils down to! What WORKS! smile.gif
post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Jules, I'm not sure why you think Bio-mer isn't forthcoming about the ingredients? The information in the link you provide is from the Bio-mer website https://www.biomer.com/tripernol.html

 

Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see the information I found from this link: http://www.wheyprotein.com.au/info_Tripernol.aspx anywhere on Bio-Mer's website. biggrin.gif That's why I was whining. LOL

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschauer View Post

I would have some concern about the soy component of this product also. It seems to me that with regards to product ingredient lists "soy lecithin" and "soy lecithin phospholipids" are used synonymously and soy lecithin is a by product of soy oil production. Maybe "soy lecithin phospholipids" means that the fatty acids have been extracted from soy lecithin?

 

Regardless of that, my big problem with the product is that it just says it contains "omega3s" without specifying which ones. That is important because ALA is an omega3 that is abundant in plants like soy but which is not very well utilized by cats. Fish oil supplements usually specify the amount of EPA and DHA their product has. This is what raw feeders should look for because those are the omega3s cats can utilize. Humans can synthesize EPA and DHA from ALA but cats can't. The USDA nutrient database entry for soy lecithin oil, which I would think would at least contain whatever they are referring to as soy lecithin phospholipids, shows that it has no EPA or DHA at all:

 

Soy Lecithin Oil

 

Basically, I wouldn't use any product as an omega3 supplement in raw food for a cat unless it explicitly states which and how much of each omega3s are in the product and then only if the omega3s were prominently EPA and DHA.

 

I totally could not agree more! No where on their site is there any mention of the amounts (a breakdown) of EPA, DHA, Omegas (3, 6, 9), Phospholipids, [or any other nutrients smile.gif] in black and white, in print, specifically how much of these are in their product...anywhere--this is important information that they are omitting. Why aren't they forthcoming with this? We shouldn't have to extrapolate the data from other websites; it should be on their site plain as the nose on our faces for all to read.

 

Aside from me personally not liking soy, lecithin or otherwise, laughing02.gif IMO lecithin is just there as an emulsifying agent with no nutritional value [especially for cats].

 

Hope y'all are enjoying our US holiday weekend!

post #25 of 32
Thread Starter 
Well, without spending hours on research verifying this, it seems, for whatever reason, that green lipped mussel oil manufacturers as a group don't provide the omega breakdown (according to an article on LiveStrong from Sep 2011). http://www.livestrong.com/article/528146-green-lip-mussel-oil-vs-krill-oil/

For those uncomfortable with the soy lecithin in the Tripernol, any suggestions for what omega 3 supplement should be used when a cat is intolerant of fish oils?

I believe Carolina chose the Tripernol because it is the GLM supplement with highest amount of GLM oil in it.

Anyone aware of other alternatives?
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG View Post

Well, without spending hours on research verifying this, it seems, for whatever reason, that green lipped mussel oil manufacturers as a group don't provide the omega breakdown (according to an article on LiveStrong from Sep 2011). http://www.livestrong.com/article/528146-green-lip-mussel-oil-vs-krill-oil/
For those uncomfortable with the soy lecithin in the Tripernol, any suggestions for what omega 3 supplement should be used when a cat is intolerant of fish oils?
I believe Carolina chose the Tripernol because it is the GLM supplement with highest amount of GLM oil in it.
Anyone aware of other alternatives?

 

Is kitty intolerant of krill oil? My three kids turn their noses up at all fish oils but readily accept krill oil.

post #27 of 32

I'm just thinking out loud and I don't know if its safe for cats or not, but I know for humans an alternative to fish oil is Evening Primrose Oil.

post #28 of 32
Thread Starter 
Evening Primrose Oil is high in omega 6 essential fatty acids, and is noted for the high amount of GLA but not omega 3s:
Quote:
The medicinal uses of the oil rely on the wide variety of effects of the high essential fatty acid content cis-linoleic acid (LA, n-6) and especially of cis-gamma-linolenic acid (GLA, n-6). The freshly pressed oil from the seeds is light yellow, having at least 85%–92% unsaturated fatty acids. Most of the polyunsaturated fatty acids are comprised of the essential LA and the rare GLA forms. Depending on the brand, the oil contains a minimum of 8%–12% GLA.
http://web.campbell.edu/faculty/nemecz/George_home/references/EveningPrimrose.html

Cats can utilize GLAs, and it may benefit their skin and coats. But it's an Omega 6, so while it may have benefits, Evening Primrose oil doesn't help lower the O6:O3 ratio to something cats would naturally eat if eating in the wild.

Here's an easy overview of the essential fatty acid needs of cats (interestingly, it mentions borage and evening primrose oil):
Quote:
PUFAs For Pussy Cats

Unlike domestic dogs, house cats have retained their hunting instincts and are not entirely dependent on humans for food. Kittens without human contact revert to feral behavior and cannot be socialized as adults. Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they must eat meat, fish, reptiles, amphibians, and birds to live and reproduce. [15] As such, felines have specific metabolic differences from humans and dogs. [11]

Cats cannot make vitamin A from beta-carotene and require preformed vitamin A from animal sources.

Felines metabolize carbohydrates poorly and can neither tolerate nor thrive on a high-carbohydrate diet.

Cats have high protein requirements but cannot easily replace protein in the diet with other energy sources to conserve body protein. In starvation conditions, cats waste their own muscles in a matter of days.

The amino acids arginine and taurine are essential for cats. Lack of these in the diet rapidly causes blindness and death. Only animal protein provides arginine and taurine at the levels cats require.

Naturally, feline PUFA metabolism is strictly carnivorous. Cats do not eat fruit, vegetables, nuts, or seeds in their natural diet and have no need for vegetable oils, either. Cats lack some of the enzymes that enable humans and dogs to convert LA to LC-PUFAs. Because cats cannot synthesize AA, their daily requirement for AA is so high that it must be provided in the diet. [12]

Cats need only a small amount of LA (less than humans or dogs), but a normal diet supplies it and there is no need to supplement. Cats cannot make GLA from LA, but they do not seem to need much. However, GLA is helpful for cats with skin and coat problems. [16] Show cats and long-haired cats may also benefit from GLA. Squeeze a 500 to 1,300 mg capsule of borage or evening primrose oil into moist food daily or every other day, or use an oil blend as described below.

DHA is critical for cats, but they cannot make it from LNA because of the same reasons they cannot convert LA to LC-PUFAs. [16] Kittens born to cats deprived of DHA may have visual and some nervous system defects. [17] Fish oil is the only currently acceptable n-3 PUFA supplement for cats. Algal DHA may be effective, but it is expensive and has never been tested on cats. Also, vegetable matter is not part of a cat's normal diet, and algal DHA has no EPA, which could be important. Cats fed dry food or rarely fed fish may be in need of n-3 LC-PUFAs. DHA deficiency quickly reduces a cat's vision, immunity, and breeding performance. [8,11,17] Cats also suffer from hereditary and age-related retinal degeneration, conditions linked to reduced retinal DHA levels. [8] I recommend mixing one to two tablespoons fish oil or a fish oil and borage/evening primrose oil blend with moist cat food daily.
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml
post #29 of 32

Very interesting, thanks for the info Laurie, I didn't realize it was only GLA. Good to know biggrin.gif

I find it frustrating the amount of times I see ingredients such as: beta-carotene, flaxseed oil in cat food (a consumer trick I presume) ugh..
 

 

@Carolina - I'm not sure the details about your cats intolerance's, are they unable to consume all types of fish oil? Have you tried giving them oils with smaller fish (such as sardines or herring)? I have also heard some good things about krill oil for humans and cats.


Hope you can find something that works for you and your kitties!! cross.gif

post #30 of 32
Thread Starter 
Carolina's actually really busy with work, so I don't know if she's checking in. But she was looking for green lipped mussel oil because she knows Bugsy can tolerate that. It was in one of the foods he was eating before raw. agree.gif I think Carolina's posts make it pretty clear SHE is comfortable giving them the green lipped mussel oil supplement she found (Tripernol), even though others would have an issue with the lecithin in it.

mschauer's point is that you can't look at the total omega 3s in the supplement, because the cats wouldn't benefit from the omegas in the lecithin if they are ALA-based, which most plant oil EFAs (essential fatty acids) are. But Carolina was purchasing it solely for the green lipped mussel oil content. smile.gif

I just asked for other suggestions, because it might be helpful to others looking for alternatives. Being in the business of recommending stocks, I know it's really easy to take something apart and find the negatives, and while that can be very valuable, it's much more helpful to take the next step and then suggest an alternative. biggrin.gif

Personally, I suspect that cats that have a fish oil intolerance probably have an intolerance to krill, only because that's part of the same food chain (typically). But it's certainly worth the try for those uncomfortable with the other ingredients in most GLM supplements (many of which have other fish oils in them, defeating the purpose of using GLM if for a fish oil intolerance!). smile.gif
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