Question about pudding diarrhea in a 3 month old kitten

Hi  ~  I seem to have lost my last post about this somewhere in this Forum, so thought I would start a new one.  Hope this is okay as I have a different slant to everything previously.

Since I have had my kitten (May 23rd) she has had pudding diarrhea. She is now 3 months old.  She has also been seen by three vets.  She was given Ivermectin and Centrine on 6/19.  She responded very well and within 24 hours her bowel movements returned to normal for a week.  Then slowly the pudding diarrhea resumed.  She was on NV Restricted Diet Turkey before 6/19 and vet recommended switching her to Hills I/D wet which she has been on since then.

She has had three fecal tests for Ova/Parasite and Elisa for Giardia, all negative.  Next step is the PCR at IDEXX lab for more invasive testing. A big heartfelt thank you to those of you who responded to my earlier post about having this specific test conducted.  I also noticed on her chart that my vet felt this was the next test for her.

I have noticed that when I wake up, after she had a 7 hour fast, her first morning bowel movement is well formed and solid looking, good color.  As the day progresses her pudding stool slowly returns.  So, I am giving her timed feedings, every 4 hours and this seems to work well for her.  She retains the firm stools as long as I keep to this schedule. I only give her one half cup of wet food every 4 hours, any more food than that and pudding diarrhea occurs again.  I also make sure she has Forti Flora, one packet, sprinkled on her food throughout the day. 

It's a delicate balance. 

When she first came to me she was 1 pound 3 ounces. She is now up to 2 pounds at 3 months, she also is the one who as PE. She has only gained 9 ounces in 6 weeks., but she is gaining and I see some growth in her appearance and her coat is turning from a brillow pad look to some shine in it.  I have been corresponding with the author who wrote a publication in 2005 at Texas A&M on PE if this could be part of this whole syndrome.  She still has not responded to all my questions.  She plays hard with her litter mate and is very active.  I built an agility course in my diningroom to help strengthen her body to adjust to growth with PE.

So, what I am asking here, is,  would anyone have any ideas why her bowl movement would be well formed after a 7 hour fast, and resume to pudding unless I keep to a timed feeding? Also, if she eats more than 1/2 cup even with a timed feeding her pudding diarrhea resumes until the following day and she fasts again.

Debbie

Also wanted to add that I tried introducing I/D dry to this kitten and she vomited and had blow out diarrhea after consuming even 5 kibble bits once, so took that away.  When she had any food product that had Carrageenan in it, she could not tolerate it.  Was thinking of eventually transitioning her to Natural Balance Duck and Pea or Venison and Pea and they both have Carrageenan in the wet food.  She didn't tolerate the Limited Ingredient with Natures Variety, not sure why. 

The only food that is working for her now, sadly, is Hills Prescription I/D.  When I looked at the ingredients, I had to shake my head as it has all the bad stuff in there and yet seems to be working right now,  as long as I stick to her routine.  However, I can't afford the price as I am on a very limited budget myself.  Her litter mate is doing just fine and seems to tolerate any food I give him.

Thanks again.

Debbie

I've been reading many of your posts and wish I could provide some help. Your little girl sounds so sweet and your dedication to her is very touching. I have a cat with digestive issues, so I am going to throw out a few thoughts, but really don't have any answers.

On the formed stool versus pudding diarrhea. My cat has had constipation problems (mixed in with diarrhea on occasion). I generally want him to go when I am around so I can confirm he went. Over the past several months, I have noticed I can somewhat "control" a morning BM based on what time I feed him. I suspect that feeding him starts the digestive process and moves things along. Maybe something similar is happening with your girl and the frequent feedings are keeping her digestive system active and moving food through too quickly. Please note, I am not a vet and I have no special knowledge of cat anatomy or physiology. This is based only on my observation with my cat and you might want to discuss this thought with your vet.

On the diarrhea in general. I would definitely get the additional stool tests to rule out the other parasites or treat for them. If the problem is not a parasite, I would use an alternate probiotic. One of our users, LDG, has done a tremendous amount of research on digestive health and has written many posts for others whose cats have confirmed or suspected IBD. If you've not read any of her posts, I would suggest searching and reading, as she provides a ton of advice for dealing with diarrhea and improving digestive health. Your girl may or may not have IBD, but it sounds like her digestive system needs some help.

Regarding the foods, yeah, carrageenan is a problem for my cat, too. Luckily, he does well on Nature's Variety Instinct, though he could not tolerate the lamb. Did you try all proteins? Maybe she can handle one or two but not all. You might even consider the Nature's Variety Instinct regular, not LID; mine is doing pretty well on the rabbit formula. There are two meat sources and more veggies, but not a lot of extra stuff. My guy needs to transition slowly, even with canned foods. You might need to do a gradual transition from the I/D to something else, as maybe the abrupt change is the problem and not the food itself. There are a decent number of brands that do not contain carrageenan, but it will be trial and error to see what she will eat and can tolerate. I would suggest introducing any new food very slowly.

Hello AbbyNTim ~  My little girl was given Ivermectin which is a broad spectrum anti-parasitic on her last visit June 19th.  Previously she has been treated with Panacur, Strongid and Albon since May 23rd.  My vet wanted to hold off on Metronidazole due to her age only.  She has been on a trial of 10 days on each of these anti-parasitics. He mentioned in my next visit he will give her another round of Ivermectin, although there is always concern over toxicity.

I have been reading up about Tritrichomonas and the role this parasite may be playing in my kitten.  Then there is the large and small bowel diarrhea.

Initially with her hourly visit to the litterbox with diarrhea, mid May, I'm thinking that could have been considered small bowel diarrhea during the 2 initial weeks I had her, now I think it may have gone to be classified as large bowel diarrhea as it seems to fit the pattern there.  If this is all from a parasite.  The only effective treatment for Tritrichomongs is Ronidazole which is banned in the US.  And the only effect test is the PCR test, but the test has to be handled correctly. 

She was also given Centrine which slows down the smooth muscle motility and worked for about 7 days only for the pudding diarrhea to return.

I will search out LDG's research on alternate probiotic's. Thank you for sharing this with me :-)

No, I have not tried all the proteins with Natures Variety, only turkey, chicken and duck.  But that was right after I withdrew Royal Canin Kitten and she was having frequent bouts of diarrhea (hourly).

Thank you for following us and trying to help us with your support !!!

Playing the lottery daily, fingers crossed, then I can send her off to a big university teaching hospital for help with all this.

Debbie

Hi there,

It sounds like your girl has been through a lot. Assume that's her in your avatar - what a cutie! I do hope you find some answers and definitely read what LDG has written. A little digestive support may help. And I would still recommend very slow changes with food, give her digestive system ample time to adapt.

Thank you AbbyNTim.  You wouldn't know she had anything wrong at all, she has such high energy and is the most loving kitty I have ever had, a very

person cat at such a young age, with the eye contact/head bumps/biscuits, she has claimed me as hers. I wake up to find her all thru the night sleeping on my chest or on top of my head over my pillow :-)  She's here now sleeping in front of my keyboard watching all my key strokes.  Her litter mate is so far behind the 8-ball in social graces, he's the Rocky Balboa type, just rams right into her at full speed, rough and tough.  I 'm thinking of neutering him sooner than her.

Yes, that is her in the Avatar :-)

Debbie

So far, the idea of timing the food and fasting overnight is working now for my little girl.  She is starting to consistently have well formed bowel movements.

And I also noticed she appears to be gaining weight now.

It's one step at a time :-)

Debbie

I'm so glad she seems to be getting better, but just in case, are you CERTAIN than the Ronidazole is banned in the U.S.?  I think it's only banned for animals used in the food chain.  From what I understand, it can still be used for cats and dogs with T. Foetus. 

MrsGreenJeens ~ Love your nick :-)  Not sure, only what I read online.  Will ask my vet when I take them back in again in two weeks for their next series of shots. Thank you for asking :-)

Debbie

LuvMyCat6204 said:

 
So far, the idea of timing the food and fasting overnight is working now for my little girl.  She is starting to consistently have well formed bowel movements.

And I also noticed she appears to be gaining weight now.

It's one step at a time :-)

Debbie

Click to expand...

Awww, that's so great to read! I'll be anxious to read your next update, but this sounds encouraging.

Hi Debbie
I'm no expert here but I can tell you my recent experience with my kitten Blu who is now 7 months old.
She had loose stools and diarrhea from the time I got her at 2 1/2 months. I tried all sorts of foods ... I had her on boiled chicken and rice mixed with pumpkin for a few weeks ... Still loose ... I had her on forti flora too.. Didnt help... Added Metamucil ... Didnt help. The Vet told me kittens often have immature systems and they suddenly are ok... he also tested her and everything was negative.
I put her on I/D finally at about 5 months old and it seemed to work ... I also switched her to nexabiotic ( i took her off forti flora) which I read about on here. A 1/4 of a capsule for her daily. With the wet I/D and probiotic, within a few days her poop was normal! It stayed that way for the past 2 months and then got even better and more formed recently, I switched her off the I/D and now she eats either natures variety instinct( started with pork as that was what was in I/D) or classic fancy feast beef as I'm not sure if she had a chicken intolerance.
So I'm not sure if she got better from getting older or the I/D gave her system a chance to calm down or the probiotic...but I thought she'd never stop having loose poop but she is great now!
Good luck!!

Hi Debbie,

There was a post on the "health" sub-forum that may be of interest to you and could help explain why the more frequent feedings seem to be causing diarrhea: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/281632/bowel-movement-right-after-food-normal

Wikipedia has this to say about gastrocolic reflex:

"The gastrocolic reflex or gastrocolic response is one of a number of physiological reflexes controlling the motility, or peristalsis, of the gastrointestinal tract. It involves an increase in motility of the colon in response to stretch in the stomach and byproducts of digestion in the small intestine. Thus, this reflex is responsible for the urge to defecate following a meal. The small intestine also shows a similar motility response. The gastrocolic reflex helps make room for more food.^[1]

"The reflex was demonstrated by myoelectric recordings in the colons of animals and humans, which showed an increase in electrical activity within as little as 15 minutes after eating. The recordings also demonstrated that the gastrocolic reflex is uneven in its distribution throughout the colon. The sigmoid colon is more greatly affected than the right side of the colon in terms of a phasic response; however, the tonic response across the colon is uncertain. When pressure within the rectum becomes increased, the gastrocolic reflex acts as a stimulus for defecation. A number of neuropeptides have been proposed as mediators of the gastrocolic reflex. These include serotonin, neurotensin, cholecystokinin (CCK), and gastrin.

"Clinically, the gastrocolic reflex has been implicated in pathogenesis of irritable bowel syndrome: the very act of eating or drinking can provoke an overreaction of the gastrocolic response in some patients with irritable bowel syndrome due to their heightened visceral sensitivity, and this can lead to abdominal pain, diarrhea, or constipation.^[2] Also, the serotonin (5HT₃) antagonist ondansetron decreases the tonic response to stretch."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrocolic_reflex

You might want to talk to your vet about IBD, and definitely read what LDG has written on the subject.

AbbyNTim ~  Thank you for researching the "gastrocolic" relux or response for my little girl.  I copied this out and will take this with me to show to my vet and see what he says.  It does back up what is happening now.   I have a friend who thinks I am weird because I always look to the litterbox to confirm my cat's health.  She says... "You and Dr. Oz (on National TV) " , LOL.  Apparently Dr. Oz is into this too.I grew up with horses and mucked stalls my whole life, so I have been very close to this subject. But on the one hand, not sure if I am dealing with IBD or IBS with her or her age.  I just have to wonder if she didn't come to me just after her eyes and ears opened up and not with her true "litter mate". I remember her just sitting there staring at me, you know, the way newborn kittens do and not being very coordinated initially.  She's fine now, but thinking the "litter mate" given to me was not her true sibling.

NYCBlu ~  Seems you and I are having similar experiences, or you did and things resolved themselves, thankfully.  I did look up that other probiotic and will ask my vet about that and plan to purchase this.  Would this be considered a live probiotic?    He asked me not to change anything until I see him in the next two weeks for their final kitten shots and then we can discuss this further. 

My other kitten has had issues with bloating, burping, gas and crying within 15 minutes after eating.  All the foods he has been on, he has reacted this way, so this will be my next issue I have to address with my vet.  I know as long as I put Forti-Flora on the food he doesn't have this, I forgot this morning and he's been crying.  He does also gulp his food. If I don't put down enough he will come and let me know, LOL.

Thank you for the suggestion to try NV Instinct pork, did not know that they carried this, but just looked this up.  Smart move on your part to keep to the pork for now and it's working.  Did you have any issues transitioning to this brand?  Glad to hear your baby is doing soo much better, gives me some hope.  I know in the throws of soo much diarrhea, it's concerning.

Hi... I'm not sure if its a live probiotic ... But I tried it too and felt better while I was on it !
I gave Blu a tiny bit of the new food and waited to see if anything happened... When nothing did I gave her half the can. From past experience I knew that if something didnt agree with her... She'd be in the litter box fairly soon after that.

During the throws of the diarreah I felt like it would never go away , but it did, just like my vet said it would. ( at the time he said that I was skeptical!) and it's only recently... I'd say when she was closer to 8 months it changed to typical cat poop.
This weekend I tried a can with chicken in it to see what would happen... I stayed with same brand... And she was ok!
I hope it changes for you too. I went with the human probiotic vs forti flora because there was less "stuff" in it ... Less variables. After NV I went to FF because it had less in it too and sometimes the high end food is too rich ( tried tiki etc).
Good luck ! It will get better!

Thank you NYCBlu.  You mean you went to Fancy Feast?

Yes with a little dry I/D at night.

I have tried I/D dry and it only bring back the loose stools.  I do need to transition her and her littermate over to a less expensive food as these I/D cans are very expensive.

Yes! That's part of the reason I switched her off that. And I figured since she was having ok poop on the I/D and that was pork I looked for a pork based food and found NV instinct. I think halo makes one too but had more stuff in it.
Btw... Her poop was never perfect on the I/D ... But it wasn't diarreah and was formed. It wasn't until she was on the NV and then the FF that it really became formed. That's why I'm not sure if also had to do with her maturing digestive system.
Did the vet ok other probiotics? The forti flora has so much other stuff that I think was undoing some of the good that the food was doing. There are so many plain probiotics out there too, I only gave Blu 1/4 capsule with the wet I/D then with the NV and now she doesn't get any.

Hi NYCBlu ~  Thank you soo much for keeping up with us   I remember your saying that you switched to NV Pork and that transition went well and are now down to Fancy Feast. What variety of FF are you giving Blu?  I am going to follow your idea. I have 48 cans left of the I/D and when I get to the last 24 will begin transitioning her, ultra slowly.  I noticed her anus coming out several times recently and that's a new concern when she has a bowel movement.  That's new for her.

I stopped the Forti Flora and found she's fine off of it. 

Her littermate can eat anything but I am going to buy one of those bowls that slows down a kitten from inhaling their food.  I am feeding them separately now and I slowly give him food to eat and he doesn't blow up and have awful painful gas. Can cats get bloat?

No problem! I'm grateful for the site and I've read so much on here that any experience or info that I have , I like to pay it forward! It can be all consuming and terrifying when our "babies" aren't feeling well.

I gave her tender beef feast .. Classic. Then I tried it with gravy. I stayed away from chicken.

About her butt.,,I did notice when Blu started to have more formed and better poop... Her anus looked different ( like it was being pushed out )and for a bit I did get scared. But I just kept watch and noticed that after she went to the bathroom it looked normal again. Now I don't notice it so maybe it's just when they are smaller ( although she's still a baby!)

I don't know if cats bloat and wondered that too as I have 2 large dogs that are prone to bloat so I very bloat conscious! I don't let them run around after eating... Not do easy to do with a kitten!!
Let me know how it's going!
Wendy and Blu