Intact males and size

I was thinking of keeping an intact male cat myself. Not intact for it's whole life, but say up to the first year, simply because of health/growth issues. I would very much like to see some statistical data on the cons listed above, like this one: 

'they can become destructive indoors due to above reason. If they cannot mate, it literally can drive them insane.'

and this: 'If/when he does get out, he will get into fights over territory/females which leads to FIV/FeLV, infections, abscesses, etc.'

Those sound like scare tactics? There has been a lot of research in dogs regarding the effects of s/n. It is clear that early S/n of puppies causes many health issues later in life. I can't help but feel it could be worse in cats, but I couldn't know for sure. 

I'm not anti s/n however I am pro doing what's fair and healthy for our pets. I understand keeping an intact male intact, could cause behavioral problems, but personally my cat has thrown his fair share of tantrums and he's "fixed". He had a spell where he just peed anywhere. I feel strongly that, for dogs, early s/n should be done when the pup is more mature than 2 months and I'm totally okay with owners wanting to keep their dogs intact as long they can keep them in their yard, which I suppose is much easier said for a dog than a sly cat. I guess it kind of rolls over to cats for me simply because I also keep a healthy, intact female dog despite all the litters (and cancer) she's supposed to have had according to the pro s/n propaganda   . 

@withoutaname  I do want to ask how you can be sure that all the cats in your neighborhood are spayed or neutered? 

Are there any breeders on here who can share their experience with adult intact male cats ? I certainly would love to hear about their experience. 

We had (at least part) siamese. Max was fixed at appx 3 months and was 25# and HUGE. His parents were ferel. His sister was 18# and the cat we still have alive, their sibling is around 16#.

My friend who saw all three of them could not believe how huge all 3 were. Lol wanted to know what we fed them. I think it is genetics. None were fat. They just had big bodies. Long and thick. Maybe over the years, their ancestors just grew big... for cold winters.

@withoutaname  and @3nails  I have just read through this thread and would love nothing more to help relieve my emotions right now then to type this reply in ALL CAPS!!

This is for both of you but even more so to 3nails, who thinks we are full of scare tactics? WHY would we benefit from your cat being neutered? This is NOT for your entertainment, it is cold, hard facts, and despite your resistance and possibly resenting what I have to say, I promise you this.

There WILL be a time that you regret not neutering, I can absolutely promise that with everything in me. You most definitely will. When you do, it will be too late to turn it around.

withoutaname, I believe your intact male is a slow bloomer, but it WILL come.......

Aside from the sheer fact that many of us are rescuers, some including myself see first hand the number of kittens shipped by the truckloads every day to the shelter and are stabbed in their hearts and tossed in a pile. Simply because those cat owners either don't believe neutering is necessary, or they simply don't care, period.

Irresponsible owners cause these kittens to be killed.

But let's not even touch that.

Having a male cat remain intact is HORRIBLE. They are no longer the sweet lovable cats you once knew, they become ruled by their raging hormones and think of nothing else, their behavior will become more aggressive towards you, they are literally sick in the head with getting out. They WILL get out, there is not a chance on earth to keep a male cat locked indoors when they want out. 

Some yowl and carry on, pee and spray right in front of you, have you ever smelled an intact male cat's pee before??? It is so strong it can be smelled down the street! Clean it up? Hah! The smell doesn't go away, so plan on living in a big nasty peed up house. 

Your cat WILL escape, many cats will push the screens off the window to escape. They will be right at the door everytime anyone goes out or comes in, you will not be able to keep him in.

When he does go out, he will roam far away, not thinking about roads, or anything else.

He WILL fight. Male intact cats fight with the intent to kill. They go for the face and ears, and your cat can be forever injured. He will be bitten and it will infect and abcess. Vet bills plenty so you might want to start saving now.

Here is a good example of what an intact male did to a 10 month old kitten. It all about territory, and no male is going to stand by while another intact male shows up and attempts to take over his territory or mate.


Not a pretty picture, believe me, I know.     

Once you wait for your males to become matured, in a matter of months or sooner, you will regret not getting him neutered sooner. Once he is spraying, he will continue this for life. Some continue to insist on being outside too, the only thing that will get better is the urine smell won't be so strong it burns your nose.

And if you're lucky, will not be seen as a threat to other males.
FACT-The number 1 spreader of fiv and felv is INTACT MALES.  Period. Do you think that this is only where we all live? It's everywhere! 

It won't happen to yours? You won't allow him outside? You most certainly will, with or without your consent.

 Oh, and you can't see this poor cat's body, but he also had 2 bulging, large bite wounds, infected, abcessed and oozing, as they ALWAYS are.

Good luck!

WAIT WAIT WAIT!  I almost read all of that.

Look I am not trying to cause trouble and I agreed that cats should be neutered, I'm simply concerned with when and the health of the cat later in life. My dog has NEVER had a litter. That was my sassy reply to the internet posters of how many litters an intact female will have in her lifetime. 

I cannot believe how offensive you are coming off. I really love to discuss these matters, and I wish you would have taken several breaths and chill pill before responding with more scare tactics. Yes I just used that term again. Now I will respectfully read your post and reply when I have time... Geez. 

Obviously it's nothing personal towards anyone in particular, but after reading this thread and how passionate I feel about the subject, did not hold back.

I am the one who had to hold Buddy while he was euthanized, as he was fully blinded and infected, and suffered more than any of us could ever even begin to imagine, out there alone, no way to find food, or shelter or help,  until I got him.

He is not the only one, I deal with this constantly in my rescue. 

Then there is all of the kittens killed, I can't stand it when I hear someone doubting the overwhelming benefits to neutering. 

If only you could walk in my shoes for just one day, you would understand.

I have read about studies showing that s/n of dogs at a very early age can have possible drawbacks. This is not so in cats.

Nothing personal, just so much to it that you really should consider and be well informed before deciding to have an intact male.

No more lap kitty............just a matter of time.

Besides, the smell alone!! Unneutered male cat pee? OMG.........not just like strong pee, oh no, much more..........

Oh and I did not say you are all full of scare tactics or any one else for that matter. I mentioned that those two reasons listed as cons -sounded like scare tactics. But now that I have read your post... Yes you are full of scare tactics.

Discuss, don't stamp your feet and roar. I own a neutered cat that is 11 years old. I am not the problem, thank you very much. I am currently researching for my next cat, that I will most likely not be able to purchase for another couple of years. I want to make the best decisions for him. If that means waiting to neuter until he is 6 months old or so then so be it. I will give him the longest and happiest life I can. 

So I'm asking questions and looking for a community to join. Feel free to post as many photos of mutilated kitties until your large rescuing heart is fully content. I do have one question, How are you so sure that the above kitty was in a fight? I have done a lot of research, and I have found that cats do not fight to the death. They are territorial and will fight a cat, but rarely a death match. Since you brought up all these facts I will leave it up to you to also post the sources.  Gracias.

I would like to clear up one misconception I think you have, which we have been seeing more and more lately.  There are health benefits to waiting on neutering a larger breed male dog which I think you were referring to about growth issues.  There has been no verification of benefits with waiting on neutering a kitty or even a small breed dog for that matter.  The health benefits for large breed dogs are well documented and proven, it seems to have gotten over to kitties through a misconception.

I understand passion can come off as offensive. 

I am quite passionate myself. I am not a child to be scolded and be made scared. I'm here for real, educational discussions I hope this board has. I am not a rescuer. I mean I've rescued before, but I don't have the same passion for it. I do love animals and want to do what I can to not add to the numbers and I am happy to report, again, that I am not the problem, neither in the dog world nor in the cat world.

Denice, I am simply wondering if a neutered cat is unaffected by not having it's hormones through it's growing/maturing period. Perhaps breeders would have the most experience with the comparisons between littermates who were s/n and those that were not. I just don't see how doing something so unnatural to a cat can have absolutely no repercussions.  I have plenty of time to find out. 

I am not a breeder.  This is an article from a CFA study done to compare very early neuter with neutering done at 4 to 6 months and later neutering.  http://www.cfainc.org/CatCare/SpayNeuter/EarlySpayNeuter.aspx

Over the years,I find that the cats that I have had neutered later rather than sooner are much more territorial and are quicker to fight to defend their territority which led to vet bills.

3nails said:

 
Oh and I did not say you are all full of scare tactics or any one else for that matter. I mentioned that those two reasons listed as cons -sounded like scare tactics. But now that I have read your post... Yes you are full of scare tactics.

Discuss, don't stamp your feet and roar. I own a neutered cat that is 11 years old. I am not the problem, thank you very much. I am currently researching for my next cat, that I will most likely not be able to purchase for another couple of years. I want to make the best decisions for him. If that means waiting to neuter until he is 6 months old or so then so be it. I will give him the longest and happiest life I can. 

So I'm asking questions and looking for a community to join. Feel free to post as many photos of mutilated kitties until your large rescuing heart is fully content. I do have one question, How are you so sure that the above kitty was in a fight? I have done a lot of research, and I have found that cats do not fight to the death. They are territorial and will fight a cat, but rarely a death match. Since you brought up all these facts I will leave it up to you to also post the sources.  Gracias.

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This is not supposed to be an arguing match.

So I will control my feelings despite the sarcasm, which also means the last time I am compelled to respond to your posts, as we are most definitely NOT on the same page, and it's simply exhausting for me to use so much energy thinking that what I have to say and sharing my experiences will actually be able to make one bit of difference here.

(although it's interesting that you mention you might keep your future male intact for the first 6 months now rather than a year as stated prior) (surely not from anything I said though!)

I would much rather help and advise those who actually want and appreciate it.

I don't stamp my feet and roar, this is the way I am and my way, just to tell it as I see it. 

As a matter of fact I do have a VERY large rescuing heart!........what a kind thing to say................

I did not say cats fight to their death, I said 'with INTENT' to kill. This is what makes the fights so vicious.  

You can research on the internet or read studies, and so on, but my sources are real life experiences. Not studies, or statistics, but in my life from what I do. 

In answer to your question about how do I know the kitty who's picture I posted was in a fight? That's exactly what happened to him, and I prefer not to share the details. I only posted him in hopes that he didn't suffer in vain, that what happened to him might help other cats from going through anything like he did.

So good luck to you, and your pets.

I think we are all getting a little too personal here and need to take a few steps back to cool off. . Please take personal remarks to PMs They aren't allowed or appreciated out on the board.

First off, just a reminder of the forum's stance on spaying and neutering:

3. This is a pro-spay-and-neuter website. Please make sure to spay and neuter your cats. Unless you are a professional breeder and your cat is part of a professional breeding program, please educate yourself to the importance of spaying and neutering by the time your cat is 4-6 months old. If you take care of a feral colony, please make sure to do so responsibly by practicing TNR (Trap, Neuter, Release) protocols within the colony.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/spay-and-neuter-your-cats

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I am not a rescuer, breeder or shelter worker. I am an owner of a spayed female cat. My experience with unneutered males is having them spray along the outside of my house marking their territory. The smell is horrific. I won't even get into the time one of them sprayed my dryer vent. I've heard the howling, the cat fights, etc. Eventually it stops and we never see the cat again. Sometimes we hear coyotes in the middle of the night going after their prey, sometimes we see a lifeless cat on the side of the road. I don't live in an area with many strays or ferals. Fairly often it's one of my neighbor's cats. He's had six different ones while I've lived here.

I've been a member here for nine years. So often we read posts in the SOS forum of intact males managing to get through a screen and they are now missing. There are so many posts in the Behavior forum of cats acting badly, spraying or inappropriate urination. In a fair amount of these the cat hasn't been neutered. It may take a bit, but the owner will then get the cat neutered and the behavior will start to improve.

No scare tactics, just my own experience.

Hi

I have had a vast amount of experience with cats. I started my career working in a Humane Society in Newark New Jersey for 3 years. From there on I worked at  a variety of regular veterinary hospitals and then on to emergency hospitals and feline only specialty practices and spent the last 9 years working at an internal medicine department then surgical department of a specialty hospital. So, that is my back round. Plus working with feral cats and doing rescue until I just couldn't do it anymore. I have two cats now.

The drive for all animals to reproduce is great. Not only for male animals but for females as well. Cats I will say in my experience and in my opinion are some of the most determined to reproduce. When you think about it, it makes sense. Out of a litter of feral cats a kitten is lucky to make it to be 1 year old. They get killed, die of disease, starve to death etc. It is a really tough life. So, cats have multiple kittens in a litter to be sure that they don't go extinct they are able to get pregnant almost as soon as their kittens are born. They reproduce. That is what cats do. Female cats get pregnant raise kittens and get pregnant . So they are kitten making machines. Tom cats have huge territory or a small one it all depends, cats are extremely good at working with what they have. But the goal for a Tom cat is to have the largest area he can because of course he wants to breed with as many cats as he cam as quickly as he can. Because that is his job as a tom cat. To reproduce. That is all his life centers around. The drive for reproduction is so strong in these cats that it will all consume them.

it is not a scare tactic or anything else. It is a fact. If you have an intact tom cat he will get out and he will create kittens when he is out or get hit by a car or something equally bad. These toms don't think about anything but getting with the female. They risk it all for that chance to fight with a bunch of other male cats hoping to win to reproduce. Much like a 16 year old boy. The drive is unstoppable. It isn't fair to keep an intact tom that is not allowed to reproduce. It isn't fair to let him reproduce. I have seen cats that have chewed through doors to get out. A screen isn't even a thought to them. It may not happen this month or even this year, but it will happen.

The spraying is a normal way of communicating to other cats in a tom. Once they start doing it, it is much harder to stop them, if not impossible. The smell when he starts to spray will be unbearable to any human. It will ruin what ever it gets on including walls and floors. It will sink in and never get out. It is much different than the smell of urine.

When my current kitten was 6 months old she came into heat. The first night before she showed any signs of it there were already three cats fighting outside. I live in a very remote area that doesn't have out door feral or otherwise cats around. There are far to many predators for a cat to survive. But there were three outside my window. They had to come from somewhere. What happened to them afterwards? They were probably killed by something.

As for the dog, completely different critter. Most un neutered male dogs will stop at nothing to get with a female as well, but this isn't about dogs. I don't know how old your dog is but the next time you see your vet discuss the chances of an intact female getting a pyometra. I have seen dogs and cats get them young and old. I had a cat that had one at 7 months (highly unusual) but I have seen them in adults and even geriatric animals. At that point it is an emergency surgery and the chances of them not surviving the surgery or recovery time are great. Mother nature has a wonderful way of making an example with the if you don't use it you lose it thing.

So as for the original question, the neutered male cats I have seen are almost always bigger than the Toms. The toms will have the jowls going on and it makes their head look big, but they are usually underweight and tired and worn looking. It takes allot of work to try to get every female cat in the surrounding 20 miles pregnant. And if they are inside it takes allot of energy and stress to not be doing what these cats have hard wired into their brains to do when they are a tom. There are of course exceptions to the size rule but in general the same type of a cat will be smaller if a tom. This is not referring to show cats as they do satisfy their basic breeding needs as well as being well fed and cared for. But, your cat is not a pure bred, there are far to many cats out there to make any more at this time, so it wouldn't be possible with your cat.

If you want to keep your cat intact it is your choice since the law sees cats as property and you can do whatever you chose with your own cat. But what I am trying to explain here is that if you love your cat you will think about what you have read here and I would recommend volunteering at a shelter so you can form your own opinions.

I forgot to mention. The fighting that the cats do isn't what directly kills them it is the infections they get after. The abscesses that form due to the fact that mother nature once again did cats a huge favor by knowing that they would fight constantly to reproduce they have a terrific ability to heal themselves so the skin heals very quickly, to quickly and the bacteria etc gets trapped under the skin where it festers and turns into a full blown abscess that may or may not eventually rupture. Now, how's that for the longest run on sentence in the world. The cats wind up dying from a systemic infection. 

I am now heavily involved in cat rescue, but years before that we found our first kitten playing in a parking lot. He was probably about 10-12 weeks old. A sweet little solid black kitten who we brought inside with every intention of rehoming him. Well, of course, we fell in love with this sweet little guy. Since he was indoor only, had no desire to go out, and was our only pet, we did not have him neutered.... I guess we never even really thought about it. In my mind, because he was inside only, and we didn't have any other cats... it really didn't matter. I had him vaccinated at the mobile clinic, and they don't do anything but vaccines, so they never mentioned it.

Well, when he was a little over a year old we came home one day and he had clawed up all the carpet in front of our front door. It extended about 3" out from the door, nearly the full length of the door. This was a rental, by the way. Being someone who knew little about cats besides the basics, I thought he was bored so i bought him more toys. He continued to scratch up carpet, and even the cheap vinyl tiles in the kitchen by the back door. We obviously lost or security deposit when we moved, and spent quite a bit on repairs.

Then he started peeing.. EVERYWHERE. On our bed, on piles of dirty clothes, on our clean laundry, on the kitchen table, spraying all along the wall under the windows in the living room, all over our shoes by the door... sometimes we did not even realize he had sprayed something until a few minutes after we had been wearing the item... not a fun thing to realize half way to work. I did some quick google searches on cats peeing inappropriately and thought he had some kind of infection so off to the vet we went. Of course, the vet saw he was not neutered and filled us in on what was really going on!

We had him neutered and the spraying/peeing on everything stopped within a few weeks... well, kind of. Even to this day he pees in cat beds he gets access too. I constantly have to wash them. He is a BIG cat. I don't know if this is because we waited till he was older to neuter him, or if that is just his genetics. Sadly, it isn't just his bone structure, he is actually pretty fat. We have been working on his weight for around 2 years and have gotten him to lose a few pounds but he is still a few pounds over weight. He does still have the big tomcat head though.

I am now passionate about spaying or neutering every cat I get my hands on. I see what happens when people don't spay or neuter... I am at my local shelter a few times a week, trying to find placement for some of the over 10k cats they intake yearly. I also help pet owners whose cats have escaped the house or ran out of the yard. I walk them through the cat holding areas of the shelter, so I talk to a lot of people with lost cats and a lot of them are missing cats that are unaltered. The urge for them to mate is paramount to the cozy home you provide for them.

I guess I just don't really understand why someone who knows they should have a cat altered would prefer to just not do it. I get it if it is because of financial reasons, but even then there are many low cost/free options. It's one thing not to know, but another all together to know and just not care i suppose.

I have now read all of your comments. But I do still not agree with you. I am all for neutering, but when it comes to indoor cats, I don't see why you all have to be like this. Especially when I do not consider it to be enough research on this area. 

The point with this thread was not to discuss this choice. We are all responsible cat owners who wish the very best for our cats.

Now I will answer and try to get you understand, or at least accept my choice. I think it's good that cat owners with indoor cats neuter, but I also think that if a indoor cat owner does not wish this, it is also okay.

If I see that he gets really desperate, and because of that isn't happy anymore, I will of course get it done, I'm not the monster some of you might think I am. So let's just all be clear on that.

As the spraying goes, let's just stop using that as a reason, please. When it comes to sensitivity to smell, it may shock how much some people can ignore. Plus this is something that's negative for me, not him. After waking up every other hour to feed this guy, burping him, and then having to hold him into he falls asleep, there is nothing that would make me want to get rid of him or anything like that.

Someone asked if I'm sure about the cats here. I am not 100% sure, because there could always be one cat with idiot owners 1 km away, and then maybe more 3 km away. He will nevertheless have to run a while to find one female to mate with. I think, but I might be wrong, that if he is to run to find a female, that he needs to stop and smell which way to go, which might give me enough time to catch up, either by sprinting after him (only problem is that if I'm to sprint fast, I can't hold it for long..), or by using a fast bicycle (I know I keep saying this won't happen, but just in case, I have bicycles lined up outside). I'm guessing that he will also use a while to get near the cat and mate, so if the worst were to happen, I could figure out who her owners were. 

If I use the statistics and say that one cat here is not neutered, that also mean that the chances of my cat getting into bad fights decreases. Since we do not have any horrible diseases for him to get, the worst thing would be bad injuries (but all the cats here are so fat and lazy, that I think they would be more hurt..of course that's horrible too). That is one reason for concern, but given the slim chances, I think I can leave this be. If he was to get injured, we get a lesson. He will have to stay inside for a while to heal, after visiting his least favorite person, the vet, and we get to feel the stress and grief of having a injured cat, and know we have to neuter him. Again: this is unlikely. 

Since he is one of the dumped and forgot cats, I know how important it is that the amount of unwanted kittens decreases. Fortunately, the amount here is a lot less than it is in the rest of the world. 

I know the risk, but I accept it. If it becomes hard, we will make the decision based on the best thing for him. 

Just wanted to add something: it's better to be too strict about this, than to be too lazy about neutering and cat health. So even though I think some ought to calm down, it's so much better that you are like this, rather than saying that "who cares about neutering?". 

3nails, how about a google search for academic articles?  I'm sure they are out there, as I do recall reading some a few years back.  The gist of what was in that article was that early neutering had no negatives at all, and was indicated for an easier recovery (I guess like infant circumcision vs later circumcision in human males).  However, there are breeders who don't agree with early (like 7weeks) neutering.  My breeder wanted us to wait for 6 months.  (We actually waited for longer due to her illness).  And in FIP 'risk' cases, where there has been a death in a litter due to FIP, and therefore all the kittens will have had exposure to the corona virus, then all stressful events are to be reduced, eliminated, or put off until they have a stronger immune system - from memory, neutering is postposed to around 9months??

I hope that is helpful.  

And I must say I do not believe catwoman707 was being offensive or off track - my heart goes out to rescuers who risk their hearts continually in looking after animals.  Of course they must get the message out there.  Nor was any of the reasons she or others gave 'scare tactics' - they are anecdotal evidence, which is completely valid in scientific studies.  Such data often prompts the statistical kind of research, if it can be done, but often in certain areas, statistical studies cannot be done and it is anecdotal that has to take place.  There was information there from a very informed person (on the subject of whether or not to neuter) if you had been calm enough to listen.  We ARE all discussing here, so please don't rant at someone.