Are Tabby Markings Unusual in Tortoiseshell Cats

merlin2000 · Dec 10, 2013

Are Tabby markings unusual in Tortoiseshell cats ?

My new kitten tippi doesn't have many patches of solid colour but she as stripes of red and brown plus some red spots on her coat , her tail as both red and tabby rings .

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merlin2000
Dec 10, 2013

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merlin2000
Dec 10, 2013

A closer picture of her coat .

diegojames · Dec 10, 2013

I personally don't think she is a tortoiseshell but actually a calico tabby mix! But, even if I am wrong let me please state that you have fun and enjoy your new addition!

merlin2000 · Dec 10, 2013

DiegoJames said:
I personally don't think she is a tortoiseshell but actually a calico tabby mix! But, even if I am wrong let me please state that you have fun and enjoy your new addition!

My friend said she was a calico cat which is an American term ?

In England they call them Tortoiseshell and white which is what the vet as put on her vaccination book , although she did say she had not seen one with such bold tabby markings before .

Tippi's mum was a tabby

diegojames · Dec 10, 2013

Do you know anything about her dad? I had the same problem with by cat! I new that the mom was a calico but, didn't know about the father! Then we found the father dead

but then we found he was a tabby!

merlin2000 · Dec 10, 2013

GemsGem · Dec 10, 2013

She is what we call in England a "Torbie" (tortie/tabby). It's not that uncommon unfortunately. There are lots of them about. But yours has got extremely good tabby markings. One of the best I have ever seen.
Beautiful cat

diegojames · Dec 10, 2013

Your cat must be a tabby/calico mix then.

merlin2000 · Dec 10, 2013

GemsGem said:
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merlin2000

Dec 10, 2013

maewkaew · Dec 10, 2013

She's Torbie & White. and what a really wonderful Torbie & White she is! "Torbie " as GemsGem said, is a Tortie Tabby -- a combination of tortoiseshell coloring and a tabby pattern that shows in both red and black based color.

There's different names for this. The GCCF I think would call her Brown Tortie Tabby with White .

TICA would call her a Brown (Black) Mackerel Torbie and White.

CFA would call her Brown Patched Tabby and White.

"Calico" is an American term that is used different ways by different people Speaking casually , some would call her a calico. But she would not be a calico by stricter definitions, like in CFA breed standards.

A calico is a certain arrangement of Tortie and White , with a lot of white, and pretty big distinct patches of the black-based color and red based color -- and NO tabby markings in the black-based color.

She is very cool looking. she'd be great to show as a Household Pet if she enjoyed it.

merlin2000 · Dec 10, 2013

maewkaew said:
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merlin2000

Dec 10, 2013

maewkaew · Dec 10, 2013

Tippi is one of the coolest looking Torbie & White cats & have seen! and not only does she have such wonderful markings, she just has the cutest little face!

If you did want to try showing her, both GCCF and TICA have Household Pet classes at shows.   If possible it's a good idea to get her some experience at it when she's young.

Obviously they don't judge them to a breed standard, but they're judged by condition (weight, muscles etc. - just looking healthy and fit) , grooming, personality and beauty in the eye of the judge.   and cats with a very striking look like Tippi often do catch the judge's eye, especially if she has such an outgoing personality too.

Oh, Tippi's not really common.   While Torbie and White cats are not uncommon, there is a huge variety in how the color and pattern end up.   That part gets determined during embryonic development.   and it is quite uncommon to have such well defined stripes, so that it almost looks as if the red tabby part is the background of those black stripes . Now THAT is uncommon!   Just google Torbie and White and look at images, you'll see a lot of variety but I bet there are not many that have that.   because normally the patches that had black stripes would be set against a brownish/ tan/ grey background. not appearing repeatedly right over the red. It's pretty wild that it turned out like that!

Her Red Tabby & White siblings are adorable too. What a bunch!   Was the mom also a tortie or torbie ( cat with both red & black ) or was she red ?

Tippi had to get one color from each parent.   So she could either have had one parent with red based color and one parent with the other color . or else the mom was a tortie / torbie (who can give either color to each kitten). then the

merlin2000 · Dec 11, 2013

Tippi's mum is a brown tabby mostly but she does have some red colour running along her strips which would make her a Torbie .

I will get some pictures of her as she only lives around the corner .

Took these four pictures this morning she sat nice and still for a change

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merlin2000
Dec 11, 2013

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merlin2000
Dec 11, 2013

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merlin2000
Dec 11, 2013

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merlin2000
Dec 11, 2013

maewkaew · Dec 11, 2013

Let me revise that color/ pattern name. Now she gets an extra word in it: Black Silver Mackerel Torbie and White.

I already was thinking from some of the earlier photos ( especially the one of her standing up on the chair) that she looked like a silver, but didn't mention it yet. and these last photos have greatly strengthened my belief that she is in fact a SILVER torbie. and that would explain some things about why her pattern looks the way it does. ( that would explain why one does not see much brownish background colorof the patches with black based pigment.)

Silver comes from the Inhibitor gene. The word "inhibitor" refers to inhibiting some of the color. It gives a white undercoat, makes the outer coat hairs white at the roots, and in the agouti -banded parts of the tabby pattern, the yellowish- tannish bands of color are replaced by white. or anyway a very pale grey / silver. So that would explain why those black stripes are standing out with so much contrast.

Tippi is such a pretty girl. Aside from her wonderful coloring, she has that sort of combination of mischievous and delicate look that is so charming.

awaiting abyss · Dec 11, 2013

They are called torbies, tortoiseshell tabbies or patch tabbies. They are fairly common, but beautiful. Its what my Akassa is.

merlin2000 · Dec 12, 2013

maewkaew said:
Let me revise that color/ pattern name. Now she gets an extra word in it: Black Silver Mackerel Torbie and White.

I already was thinking from some of the earlier photos ( especially the one of her standing up on the chair) that she looked like a silver, but didn't mention it yet. and these last photos have greatly strengthened my belief that she is in fact a SILVER torbie. and that would explain some things about why her pattern looks the way it does. ( that would explain why one does not see much brownish background colorof the patches with black based pigment.)

Silver comes from the Inhibitor gene. The word "inhibitor" refers to inhibiting some of the color. It gives a white undercoat, makes the outer coat hairs white at the roots, and in the agouti -banded parts of the tabby pattern, the yellowish- tannish bands of color are replaced by white. or anyway a very pale grey / silver. So that would explain why those black stripes are standing out with so much contrast.

Tippi is such a pretty girl. Aside from her wonderful coloring, she has that sort of combination of mischievous and delicate look that is so charming.

So the silver replaces the red to make the stripes standout ?

And the red tabby markings that seem to run into the dark tabby markings how does that work is the red the dominant colour there ?

I've looked at how the colour patterns develop on the net and I must say it fried my brain a bit

I take my hat off to you for understanding this very interesting science and being able to explain it in an understandable way .

Is their a dominant colour in Tortoiseshell colour development and do all the colours switch on at the same time in the embryo and then switch off at the same time ?

merlin2000 · Dec 12, 2013

Awaiting Abyss said:
They are called torbies, tortoiseshell tabbies or patch tabbies. They are fairly common, but beautiful. Its what my Akassa is.

Akassa is beautiful as are your other cats , I read your posts you've got a great menagerie .

maewkaew · Dec 12, 2013

Merlin2000 said:
So the silver replaces the red to make the stripes standout ?

And the red tabby markings that seem to run into the dark tabby markings how does that work is the red the dominant colour there ?

I've looked at how the colour patterns develop on the net and I must say it fried my brain a bit

I take my hat off to you for understanding this very interesting science and being able to explain it in an understandable way .

Is their a dominant colour in Tortoiseshell colour development and do all the colours switch on at the same time in the embryo and then switch off at the same time ?

No, the silver (white or almost white) actually replaces the yellowish tan or yellowish grey stripes that give a brown or grey look to the "background" hairs in black-based tabby patches. so I think that's at least part of what's making that black look so bold. they are not blending in to a medium black-based color around them. Look up some pics of black silver tabbies, and you can see the effect without the red for example here are some British Shorthair kittens . http://www.freewebs.com/brilcats/whiskaskittens.htm      ( These kittens have a different tabby pattern, called çlassic tabby or blotched tabby, instead of mackerel tabby.)

The red running into the black is from what you mentioned about it switching on and off in the embryo.     Torbie coats get up to all sorts of craziness because it's not just the colors switching on and off, but it's how that happens to turn out in conjunction with the tabby pattern variations.

Tortoiseshells are very interesting genetically because of the sex-linked red.   Basically black is the default, the original base color.   Red (upper case O) and its opposite that I'll call "not Red"( lower case o) are at a separate locus from Black. The Red is on the X chromosome which is related to gender.

Note: Although it's long been called Red in the cat fancy, the gene was abbreviated 0 (for orange). but let's just call it Red.

If you've been reading about this you probably know that Red is linked to sex.   Since a normal male cat has only one X chromosome, from his mother, that means he has only one spot for a Red or Not-Red gene. So he inherits from his mother either the O gene that determines he will have red-based ( phaeomelanistic) pigment, or else the o , which means it won't be red based but instead the default black-based (eumelanistic) pigment.

A female cat gets 2 X chromosomes, one from each parent. and on each of them there is either an 0 (Red) or o (Not-Red)- which defaults to black.    Neither one is dominant over the other in the way of a typical genetic pair.   ( To give an example of the more normal way, if a cat gets 1 D (Dense color) and one d (dilute color), they will have dense color because it's dominant over dilute. )   But with this 0 and o , if she gets one of each, neither one is dominant, instead BOTH will show in her phenotype (looks) -- so she will have tortoiseshell colouring.   But exactly how the colors are arranged is random.   During development of the embryo, the 2 colors are randomly switched on and off.

Thanks for your kind words about my attempts to explain.   I do find the subject interesting,   to learn about how cats end up being such a great variety of beautiful colors and patterns.

merlin2000 · Dec 13, 2013

merlin2000 · Dec 13, 2013

Thank you very much for your detailed information I've found really useful it's helped me understand much more about how a cats colour is determined

GoldyCat · Dec 13, 2013

Merlin2000 said:
DiegoJames said:

Do you know anything about her dad? I had the same problem with by cat! I new that the mom was a calico but, didn't know about the father! Then we found the father dead

Tippisbrothersandsisters.jpg

merlin2000

Dec 10, 2013

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The red on the siblings does not tell you anything about the dad unless they are girls. The red gene is carried only on the X chromosome, so you can get red boys if the mother has red in her. To get a red girl you need both a red father and a mother with red in her.

Are Tabby Markings Unusual in Tortoiseshell Cats

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Let me revise that color/ pattern name. Now she gets an extra word in it: Black Silver Mackerel Torbie and White.

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Let me revise that color/ pattern name. Now she gets an extra word in it: Black Silver Mackerel Torbie and White.

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