Is this a Persian?

 I am considering purchasing her but want to know if it really is a Persian.
The owner says she is a 12 week old Persian, your thoughts?

I forgot to mention the breeder does not have any papers to prove this is in fact a Persian, I was just wondering what your thoughts are.

I would say yes she is a Persian. She sure looks like one..But with no papers you can never be 100% sure..If the price isn't to high and you have your heart set on a persian then I would buy her..

Agree, she is definitely a sort of modern persian, unmistakable, perhaps even better than barely pet quality. 

The colors seems to be tortoiseshell, I dont think they are so common in persians.

The problem with modern persians and back yard breeder, is, you dont know anything about health.

I mean, modern persians have easy to get several different bad conditions, because of their "smashed in" face.  Tear canals may be damaged, eyes too bulging, difficulties with breathing, and easy to get asthma alike symptoms.

Im not even mentioning genetic problems, like the kidney disease PKD.

Serious breeders do their best to breed out these problems, and managed as a whole.

With non serious BYb -  which this one probably is )- you never know anything.  count there may be some sort of such  lifelong problems.  (unless this IS a serious breeder but got an unwanted color combination - dont want to reveal herself by registering, but gives all usual vet care, and  do wants to get a good home to the kitten - this is one of the few exceptions)

But if you DO fancy this kitten - why, try.

Good luck!

Thank you for your replies.
StefanZ, you were correct in stating the breeder is not a serious one. She has 5 available all at the same price of $300.
When I get this kitten can I have her tested for any or all of the health problems you have listed?

The kitten definitely looks Persian.  and I agree with Stefan,  she looks like she is probably a Blue Tortie.   Some would call it "Blue-Cream".  ( because those are the 2 colors.  Blue is the dilute version of Black, and Cream is the dilute version of Red.)

Tortoiseshell is fairly common in Persians in USA.  ( Persians are still very popular here and there are many colors that are popular. )   There would be no reason for any serious breeder to not register a kitten because she is a tortie.   There are tortie Persians who are successful show cats.     . ( Personally I think all kittens should be registered  , even if they have some trait that disqualified them from showing.  

This breeder almost certainly does not show anyway,  definitely not if she doesn't even have registered cats. 

If she had papers on the parents with breeding rights,  it would be simple to register the kittens .   and it only costs about $10 or $12 to register the litter,  which then gives you slips that you or the buyer can register each individual kitten for a similar small amount.   (I just mention this because I have heard of people being told ridiculous lies like it is very expensive to register cats .)

I  don't think it's a good idea to be breeding cats without papers.  It means either she got them from some  other irresponsible breeder who sold them without papers,  and she wouldn't know if she might be breeding very close relatives...... .or else she bought them as pets with an agreement they were supposed to be neutered and not bred , then she dishonestly went and bred them anyway.    & if she would lie to her cats' breeders,  she would lie to you.

Stefan mentioned  a big problem that can be tested for :  PKD (polycystic kidney disease).  This is an early onset kidney problem that is pretty common in Persians,  and can cause death by around age 5 .   although some breeders have done a good job at testing and breeding away from it.   Unfortunately there are still a lot of irresponsible Persian breeders who don't bother to test.    I would not buy a Persian without proof from a genetics lab that the parents were tested negative for PKD, or that the kitten him/ herself was negative.    

here is an article about PKD in Persians.  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+2142&aid=2829

If you get this kitten and she does turn out to have PKD,  what will you do?     I can see testing a kitten from a rescue after getting it,  but by buying from a breeder you should be guaranteed not to have this problem.

The kittens should be negative for FIV and FeLV ( Feline Leukemia).   there are tests that can be done for that. 

Other problems for Persians include bad teeth,  jaws out of alignment,  misshapen skulls     ( Those are things that  judges are trained to check for in show cats.  so if a breeder's cats are very successful in showing - like Grand Champions in CFA or  something like TGC, QGC  or SGC   in TICA,  that is a good sign they didn't have such structural problems. ) 

....  and things Stefan mentioned like breathing problems,  blocked tear ducts etc.  

Some tears spilling out of the eyes  is unfortunately just going to happen with that facial structure,  and you need to wipe their eyes daily and may need to use a product like Eye Envy to prevent tear stains.    But the eyes should still look clear, and the discharge shouldn't be yellow like an infection.

 You should not notice signs of breathing problems , like wheezing.    Ears should be clean and without a bad smell.

A Persian breeder should give you instructions in grooming since that is such a major part of having a Persian cat.  Her own cats and kittens should be well groomed. without matted dirty fur.  

The kittens should be friendly and curious.  Cats should be friendly especially to the breeder, not running and hiding.

I do like that the kitten is 12 weeks old and I hope that means she does not sell kittens younger than 10 weeks at an absolute minimum.    The kitten should have been already seen by a vet and should have had at least the first set of vaccines for Feline Rhinotracheitis ( feline herpes), Feline Calicivirus and Feline Panleukopenia (also called feline distemper or feline infectious enteritis)

 Here is an article on a Persian site about what to look for in a breeder,  and gives a link to an example of a contract.   http://www.pelaqitapersians.com/persian_cat_breeder.php

A couple points she makes that I would not agree with:

 . She says the breeder should own both the mother and the father .  Sometimes the breeder may not own the father,  but took the queen for breeding to another breeder in order to  breed with a stud who would be a great match in some way,    or because they just don't have the facilities for housing studs at that time.   However ,  they should still be able to show you the father's pedigree and photos of him.   

She also writes that a good breeder has been breeding for many years.   but obviously the cat breeds would die off if nobody new got started breeding them,  or if nobody ever bought kittens from the newer breeders.  So it's OK if they haven't been breeding a long time ,  but should have longer experience with the breed as an owner and ideally should have been showing and a member of a breed club, and in contact with more experienced breeders to advise them.  

I will say that I see the choice of where to get a kitten of a particular breed as being about whose breeding practices I want to support -- to me that means someone who is working in cooperation with others to preserve a breed ,  keep it healthy and breed to a standard.     That is pretty impossible to do if you are breeding Persians without papers.  because keeping track of the ancestry via a legitimate registry  is part of how you work together with others in the breed.  

maewkaew, thank you for you long and detailed response.

The breeder told me that her kittens are not registered, but I do not know about the parents. She showed me pictures of the parents, she owns both, the female is orange and the male is all black. I will have to ask her if they are registered and if she has breeding rights.

If the parents are not registered, is there any way that I can register this kitten my self? I do not know anything about this prosess so any help would be appreciated. She told me that I would be allowed to breed her if I wanted to (not spayed obviously). I would do a ton more research on breeding before I ever thought of doing it but if I wanted to have all of mine registered, how would I go about doing this?

As far as getting her tested for PKD and other health problems, I have no problem doing this my self but am curious as to about how much it would cost for all the tests.

The breeder has taken all the kittens from this litter to the vet and she has the shot records that she can give me.

Again, thank you for your very detailed and informative post.

This is the father of the litter:


The Mother:


And here are pictures of other kittens from this same litter so you can try and tell if these are of decent quality and of good health.




And finally here are more pics of the kitten I am interested in:

No, if the parents are not registered you cannot register the kitten ( or any kittens born to her) as Persians with any legit registry.*  

So the only way is if this breeder really does have the ability to register her cats  but just did not do so .  Then if she did register them,  she could register the litter and  give you a slip to send in to individually register the kitten .    but chances are that if she did not register them, it's because she couldn't.

If you really want to breed Persians,  this is NOT a good way to start out.  

Everything we said about health and structure is even more vital  if considering a cat for breeding.     You don't yourself have the knowledge yet to assess all that.  You are just now learning about what to look for when getting a pet Persian.   That is OK,  everyone starts somewhere.   but it's not the time to dive into the deep end before you learn the basics.      There are way more than enough irresponsible breeders of Persians.   It's a lovely-natured, sweet breed and I hate to see them suffer from poor breeding decisions.   

If you do want to breed,  take some time to find a more reputable breeder,  get a show quality registered Persian to show in the class for spayed/ neutered cats ( this is called Premiership in CFA  or Alter Class in TICA).    Get involved int he cat fancy, get to know experienced   breeders/ exhibitors,   take some time to learn about genetics, health, feline husbandry,  breed standards,   etc.    and THEN decide if you really want to breed.  

 Both CFA and TICA have mentor programs.   or many people find a mentor while they are showing an alter.  

That same site that had the other Persian article has this one for people considering breeding:    So you want a litter?

 * You may wonder, what do I mean by "legit" registries ?   I am not sure where you are located.  but you mentioned "$" . so maybe you mean U.S, or Canada.

  If you are in the U.S.:   CFA ( Cat Fanciers Association), TICA (The International Cat Association),  or ACFA (American Cat Fanciers Association).  The first two are the 2 largest ,  both  are based in the US but are international.   The 3rd is smaller but still definitely considered a respectable registry.  they still have quite a few shows in some parts of the U.S.    Oh, there is also a registry that is very old but now very tiny,  and only has like a couple shows a year in the Northeast USA.  That is CFF.  I think it would be unusual for  breeders to only register with them.

In Canada:   CCA/ AFC  ( Canadian Cat Association/ Association Féline Canadienne ) . 

  In other countries there are different ones , for example GCCF in the UK.  or AFC or GCCFV in Australia.

The main cat associations are those who are members of the World Cat Congress.   You can see a list of the member organizations here. World Cat Congress member links 

 (NOTE:   Just like the bogus  registries often used by puppy mills, there are also bogus registries for cats,  that will "register" a cat if you send in money and a photo and say you think it is some breed!   but it is meaningless and no real registries  accept transfer registrations from them.   I know of one of those bogus registries that claims to have "shows"  that are really only photo contests where someone picks a cute cat picture !     Very different from a show where licensed cat show judges who spent years of training  are judging the cats in person.   and sending in a photo  is very different from actually putting in the time, effort and expense to show  cats.   It is dishonest to portray it as the same as a show, and call the cat a "champion" because of a picture. ) . 

 We cross posted there.

The  Kittens don't LOOK  very unhealthy but there is only so much you can tell from photos.   The mom looks like her left eye might be bothering her?   both eyes should be big and round and it looks like she is holding the left eye a bit squinted.   but I don't know just what is going on without seeing her or talking to the breeder.  it could be just a momentary thing or she could have an eye infection.  Possibly the very sweet looking cream ( or light red?) male kitten may have been recovering from conjunctivitis.  His eyelids look slightly swollen?   The  blue tortie girl's eyes look fine.

They are the current breed standard with short faces / short noses;  some of the kittens meet the standard better than others.    The Blue Tortie girl  looks to me maybe  the best as far as the standard, though the red tabby boy is nice too.  but maybe a little long in the body? ( hard to tell just from this)   If you had papers you might even try showing this Blue Tortie kitten.  ( but again,  even with looks there is only so much i can tell from a photo.   and I am not a judge of Persians.  

I do think the parents almost surely really are Persians.  & the cats and kittens at least do look like they are probably ( hopefully) pretty well cared for.    Personally I wouldn't want to buy kittens from someone breeding without doing all the right things.  But if you have your heart set on her,  I would at least try to find out about as much of the health issues as you can.   

But for breeding  ,  you really should wait and take the time to not only find a cat who will have have proper registration and pedigree ,  but from a breeder who KNOWS all the issues of health, genetics and conformation,  and will be there for you in the years ahead .   

If it's just  that you are wanting the experience of raising kittens,  you could volunteer with a shelter or rescue group as a foster home for a stray mother (or mother-to-be) cat and her kittens.   ( That could also be good practice if you wanted to consider breeding in the future.) 

Did you end up getting the kitten? If so did she turn up healthy?I ask because I actually just ran across this same breeder in hoobly with another litter of kittens(same mom and dad and the kittens were almost the exact same color) lol. Small world!