Possibly Panleukopenia or something else??

I have posted a few times about some of these kittens. I'm going to try not to write a book here but I want to make sure I give all relevant info because I need advice!

All these kittens were pulled from the shelter at around 2-3 weeks old

Kittens are:

Sam, 12 weeks old (one of a litter of 6, the other 5 are all healthy and fine)

Litter #2- 5 kittens, 8-9 weeks old

1 additional kitten, 7 weeks old

One kitten from litter #2, Zeus, started having some digestive issues about a month ago. So another rescuer took him from me to work on what could be wrong. He was tested for parasites and clear. It was discovered that canned food was too much for his system and so we had to feed him wet food soaked in water with baby food chicken. He came back to my house on the 19th. About 5-6 days later he started vomiting in the litter box and when I picked him up he had diarrhea pour out of him (he couldn't control it) and it was mostly mucus/clear with a little stool mixed in. I rushed him to the emergency vet where they ran tests and could not find anything wrong besides low blood sugar and a low temp (98 or 99 I can't remember) and he was a little dehydrated. They gave him subq fluids, nutri-cal (which he ate) and got him warmed up. I left with him about 3am and the next few hours he was lethargic but ok, ate some more nutri-cal and I gave him more subq fluids as instructed by the vet. He was also on a heating pad and seemed to be warming up. At about 7:30 am I noticed he was having some issues breathing, it was a little labored, so I decided to take him to my vet when they opened at 8. But at about 7:45 he suddenly started violently vomiting and then seizing and he passed. This was Sep 26th. Vet said cause of death was unknown whatever it was probably caused his earlier issues.

On the Tuesday the 1st I got home in the evening and went to check on the kittens. I picked up Sam and he seemed VERY hot. I took temp and got 105. I rushed him to a vet I had never been to because mine had already closed and the emergency vet was not open yet. They took his temp and it was 107. Did fecal and blood work and it came back fine but that he had Coccidia. He had been to the vet weeks before and diagnosed with Giardia which he was treated for. So vet gave Albon for Coccidia and told me to give him fluids if he got dehydrated.

Wednesday morning I took him into my vet and they took his temp and it was 107.7. They did combo test (negative) and gave him something to lower the fever. They also started him on Orbax and switched the Albon to Marquis.

Wednesday night i noticed a kitten from Litter #2, Apollo, the brother of Zeus who had passed, vomit while they were out playing. It was like clear/foamy spit. I talked to the vet and they said this was likely from the Coccidia. Everyone was started on Marquis that day.

Thursday Sam went back to the vet and temp was 106. It went down to 105 something when they were giving fluids. He stayed at the vet getting fluids all day in hospital care. That night Apollo seemed slightly depressed- he did not want to play, and a little dehydrated.. Vet said to give subQ fluids so I did.

The next morning, Friday, Sam and Apollo went back to the vet. That morning Apollo had gone down hill and was starting to get lethargic. When we got to the the vet they took him back and did blood work and it came back as having a low white blood cell count, low Neutrophils, &  low platelet count. In the diagnostics, he had very elevated ALT and elevated Billirubin. His temp was really low, 98. The vet said he thought it was Panleukopenia. They started him on an IV and he had round the clock treatment for about 24 hours at the vet before he started vomiting green fluids and passed on Saturday. However, by Saturday Sam was getting back to normal and his fever was almost gone and he never did have any vomiting. Sam is now totally back to normal and healthy

So Saturday I spent 10 hours cleaning or throwing away everything in my Den where the foster kittens stay. I even ran bleach water through the carpet shampooer, scrubbed the walls, seriously EVERYTHING.  If it was Panleuk, I could not understand how it could have been in this litter since at least the 19th when Zeus came back from the other rescuer (the only way he could have been exposed since no new kittens have entered my house in a month) and the other 3 (all girls) plus the additional kitten (a boy) who lived with both Zeus and Apollo had not been sick besides their URI which was now cleared up. So I began closely watching every kitten. Everyone got a course of Marquis but several are still having some loose stools. None of them had been vaccinated because they all had Calicivirus at the point in which they were old enough to get their first shots, so we had to wait, now the vet says we need to wait 2 more weeks.

Now it is Wednesday night and one little girl from the vomited a tiny bit yesterday evening, but has not since, has been eating fine, and I have been monitoring her temp, weight, and hydration for the last 24 hours and everything is fine. She is running around and playing and acting normal. No depression, lethargy, etc.  Earlier this evening, the little 7 week old vomited but this was just a little bit after I fed him (he still likes to be bottle fed some) and he had eaten really quickly, and it seemed more like he was trying to cough up something in his throat than vomiting you would see from an upset stomach.  I checked his temp, hydration, everything and it is normal. About 30 minutes later he went and ate a bunch more out of his bowl and has been fine since, no vomiting.

So at this point, it has been about 3 weeks since whatever this is would have been introduced to these kittens. From everything I have read, it doesn't seem possible for all these kittens to have been exposed that long and so many be totally unaffected. Sam's symptoms were totally different, as the 2 others that were sick and passed never had fevers and that was Sam's only symptom. I have basically done nothing for the last week + but monitor these kittens. I'm horrified someone else will get sick, but also confused since it seems like if it were Panleuk, they would all have already gotten sick, especially being SO young.

We will probably go back to the vet tomorrow just to get the 2 that did vomit checked out, but I feel like there is something else going on here and I am afraid the vet is missing it.

Any advice would be appreciated.

One thing I keep coming back to in researching is Salmonella. I've seen it mentioned in many places that the blood work results from Salmonella can be nearly identical to Panleuk. Any thoughts?

One thing that makes me think this might be it is that these kittens have now been treated for every type of intestinal parasite and are still having stinky loose stools. Not liquid, but a toothpaste consistency and most are a beige color. It smells horrible and much worse than normal cat poop by a lot.

Gosh, I'm not sure what's going on, but I agree with you that it seems like if it is panleuk, that more kittens would be sick with the same symptoms. I'm wondering if it's something like tritrich or giardia? I don't think those are normally tested for or treated by the regular deworming meds.

The first thing I want to say is, ANYTIME you pull kittens from the shelter they should always, always be quarrantined for a good 2 weeks. We know all too well the crappy germs that are there, they seem to be some of the heartiest, nearly impossibl;e to get rid of germs I've ever seen, and most non rescueing people have never seen nor even heard of.

I know it's not easy to seperate during quarrantine period, but what you have gone through is a perfect example of why it's critical to do.

I have dealt with panleuk kittens more than once, and I must say I definitely do not believe this is what you have been dealing with.

Panleuk would cause each and every kitten to become sick and die. Period.

It is so rare for one to survive, I have never seen nor ever heard of one surviving panleuk, and I also think that if someone says they have, then it was not really panleuk.

So I think you can rule that out. The incubation period is long over.

This being said, means assuming you do not have the virus in your home someplace out of the way, as it lives on and on and on, 2 years to be safe.

For parasitic issues, I have never had a kitten get fevers, or vomiting from ghiardia or coccidia, only diarrhea.

I have however had kittens have roundworm so badly it caused vomiting. But intestinal parasites, never.

Treatment that works the best, one of these or the other, sometimes both needed when there are several types, ponazuril (marquis paste diluted, or ronidazole.

Ponaz is 0.2 ml per lb of kitten, once a day for up to 7 days. Ponaz is awesome and frankly kicks ass on coccidia, actually killing the ocysts rather than inhibiting the growth as albnon does, waiting forever for their immune systems to fight it off.

Ronidazole is the other end of the parasite spectrum (sorry, my own terms) when ponazuril didn't get completely rid of the parasites. Highly effective, 7-10 days.

To be blunt and sound gross, is there a sickening sweet smell to the poop or a moth ball type smell?

Unfortunately it is Panleuk I took the two that had vomited, Phoebe and Peter into my vet when they opened this morning and they ran parvovirus tests and they were positive. They also did fecal tests that came back with no parasites. We may still test for salmonella, but we did not today. There poop smells horribly sweet in the sickest way, I really cannot describe it.

Phoebe seems to be doing really well and the vet is amazed that she vomited Tuesday and is now seemingly fine yet has Panleuk. Peter is not doing as well, but he is taking a little baby food chicken mixed with pedialyte and he has not vomited again since early this morning. He has dropped a little weight, but I already gave him Subq fluids a little bit ago and will continue to through the day/night. One good thing is both of them have a normal temp, and have maintained one throughout the last 48 hours! The other two in the litter, Thea and Aria are apparently fine. The vet had me bring them in this morning after I got Phoebe and Peter home. And yes, I realize this doesn't make a lot of sense!

The vet was stumped about what is going on with the whole litter though, since Zeus was the first case, and these other kittens lived with him, shared food and litter boxes, etc up until a few hours before his death, AND because kittens with Panleuk shed the virus for several days BEFORE symptoms appear, that means they were all exposed to it around 3 weeks ago, yet the only one who fell ill was Apollo, and now Peter and Phoebe, but weeks later? She said they may still have some immunity from their mother, even though they were all bottle babies since 3ish weeks old, but other than that, she does not know. Phoebe seems to be totally fine and was pretty rambunctious this afternoon playing with Thea and Aria. Poor Peter is really worrying me.


Oh, and I do quarantine. All these kittens have been in my house a long time now, Sam and his litter have been here 9 weeks, the litter with Panleuk has been here 6 weeks and Peter has been here since September 3rd and was the last kitten I took in. I always quarantine for a few weeks or longer (depending on age and health) but that all ended a month ago for everyone besides Peter who just came upstairs about 2 weeks ago. That is why this makes little sense, as I have never had a case of Panleuk, nor Coccidia. Then Zeus goes away for a week or two to another rescuer and apparently comes back with both is all I can come up with. I had not been near the shelter or other cats since the beginning of September.

Glad to hear you do quarrantine.

Oleander, I'm not one to disagree with an educated vet, but I don't agree it is panleuk.

The parvo test is quite inaccurate, it is designed for dogs and parvo. Panleuk is simply a form of parvo.

I have had 4 false negatives and 2 false positives in my dealings.

You say Phoebe is doing fine? Not even remotely possible.

They are young kittens, and once the virus symptoms show, it is well on it's way to destroying them internally.

It takes kittens just days from onset of signs to death.

They would ALL be infected, as it is impossible for any to not get the virus once exposed.

The vomit would be yellow-green, at least a strong pee-yellow color. All fluid and bile/saliva.

There would be fever and extreme lethargy, I have had many do the common thing of hanging their head over a water dish but not drink.

I'm sorry, and I hope I am correct, that I do not believe it is panleuk.

They would not still have immunity from their mom at this point, and even if they did, it does not stop panleuk from attacking/killing them all.

Just no way.

It is the biggest, ugliest deadly virus ever.

No escaping it.

The sweet, awful smell of their poop is a classic coccidia smell. Gross I know!

Also, why one tested pos for coccidia then these 2 did not is common, they have to be actually shedding the cysts to test positive, this is why a vet who suspects it will run a test several times to attempt a positive result.

Often times they will treat for coccidia even with neg tests since they are usually (the vet) correct in their diagnosis, even with a neg test.

The ponazuril won't hurt them regardless.

I am suprised your vet today didn't mention that too, along with the fact the parvo test results are not accurate for panleuk.

Rather than her being stumped? Go figure.

catwoman707 said:

Glad to hear you do quarrantine.

Oleander, I'm not one to disagree with an educated vet, but I don't agree it is panleuk.
The parvo test is quite inaccurate, it is designed for dogs and parvo. Panleuk is simply a form of parvo.
I have had 4 false negatives and 2 false positives in my dealings.
You say Phoebe is doing fine? Not even remotely possible.
They are young kittens, and once the virus symptoms show, it is well on it's way to destroying them internally.
It takes kittens just days from onset of signs to death.
They would ALL be infected, as it is impossible for any to not get the virus once exposed.

The vomit would be yellow-green, at least a strong pee-yellow color. All fluid and bile/saliva.
There would be fever and extreme lethargy, I have had many do the common thing of hanging their head over a water dish but not drink.

I'm sorry, and I hope I am correct, that I do not believe it is panleuk.
They would not still have immunity from their mom at this point, and even if they did, it does not stop panleuk from attacking/killing them all.
Just no way.
It is the biggest, ugliest deadly virus ever.
No escaping it.

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I totally agree with you and HOPE you are right. It doesn't make sense, that is for sure. Do you have any other ideas? It isn't worms or giardia as they are treated with Pyrantel as soon as I get them and then again 10 days later. And everyone was treated with panacur for Giardia about a month ago. They all just finished Marquis for Coccidia but it doesn't seem to have cleared it up to well at this point. I need to talk to the vet about doing Albon too maybe?

So far, no one has hung their head over the water dish. No fever in any of the 4. No yellow or green vomit, it is clear or foamy clear/white and here is one thing I noticed.. Both times Peter vomited (violently) this morning it was clear siliva and happened directly after he walked out of the litter box. The vet said that was likely due to cramps from diarrhea? His diarrhea is worse tonight, but Phoebe's stools are a bit firmer. All 4 seem a bit gassy too. Especially phoebe. The only one who is lethargic is Peter but even he does some running around.

I hope the test was a false positive, the vet said it was positive almost immediately.

catwoman707 said:

Also, why one tested pos for coccidia then these 2 did not is common, they have to be actually shedding the cysts to test positive, this is why a vet who suspects it will run a test several times to attempt a positive result.
Often times they will treat for coccidia even with neg tests since they are usually (the vet) correct in their diagnosis, even with a neg test.
The ponazuril won't hurt them regardless.
I am suprised your vet today didn't mention that too, along with the fact the parvo test results are not accurate for panleuk.
Rather than her being stumped? Go figure.

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Because they had just been treated with the ponazuril. I originally had Albon for them so I have a ton of it, I'll ask tomorrow if I can start them on that.

Okay I need you to give me a rundown again, in short.

Also how long and what dose of ponazuril did they get?

Adding albon is not what you need. It takes far too long for it to work at this point, and many vets who do give ponazuril don't give it for long enough.

Standard dose is for 3-5 days, but I have had many instances where it just wasn't quite enough days, and it came back fast and full blown again, so I put them on a regiman of another straight 5 days, up to 7 in bad cases.

Your kids are high risk for dehydration so at this point there is no way you want to wait for albon to do it's thing.

As I said before, ponazuril actually KILLS coccidia, where albon merely inhibits it from reproducing and waits for the kitties immune system to take it over.

You have 2 kids that are sick now right? How long for, who is doing what and when? Anyone eating/drinking?

Sorry, I just have all this drama going on around me but I want to help with this.

I try to go back and reread the thread but get distracted and interrupted!  haha

Also the coccidia is not your real issue here but why the vomiting is going on. Wierd.

What litter do you use?

What food are you giving them?

Okay I did reread this entire thread.

Is there any remote chance that panleuk is in your home that you know of from the past? Do you walk on the grass before entering your house?

I ask because there are some real issues in their symptoms that point to panleuk, however the time frame is simply impossible, unless as my first post said, there is any chance it is in your home so they are exposed at different times?

No! See that wouldn't make sense either. The longest I have ever seen panleuk exposed kittens come down with it is almost 2 weeks, which is quite a long time for this virus, it is usually 5-7 days after exposure. So how can it be possible for 3 weeks to have passed by AFTER the last kitten died?

How can it be possible that you still have 2 there that are fine? I've never seen that either and seriously doubt it possible if it is panleuk.

A few points that concern me, you said they all seem gassy? Low white cells? no fever, fever?

When did the last kids show sick symptoms?

Forget treating the coccidia, it won't kill them but this can. If they get through this there is plenty of time for that.

The dosage on the marquis is 50mg/ml and I was instructed to give 2.3mg per pound. Most of these little ones are just right under 2 lbs.

They started it Thursday night and got it for 5 days, it ended Monday.

The 2 that are sick now are phoebe, 9 weeks old, 1 lb 11.8 oz. she tested positive on the parvo test today. She vomited spit (clear) Tuesday night. No vomit since. Eating on her own. No fever. A tiny bit less active but that could be due to her diarrhea which is toothpaste consistency and it almost leaks out her butt a bit, but never enough to drip off anywhere. She is running around the den right now. She keeps stopping to lick her own poop off her butt though (ew..)

And Peter, 7 weeks old, 1lb 8.4 oz, has maintained that weight the last 24 hours. He vomited 3 separate times now, starting yesterday but not since this morning. no fever, has stayed around 101.4 since i started monitoring it yesterday. He tested positive for Panleuk. Has mucousy diarrhea. He is getting Subq fluids every 3 hours so he isn't dehydrated but he does look slimmer than he did. Somewhat lethargic but his color looks good (gums are the right shade of pink) he is not eating or drinking on his own as of late last night but is taking pedialyte mixed with baby food chicken, usually about 6+ ml at a time every few hours. He seems to be getting progressively worse as the night goes on as far as lethargy goes.

I use clay liter, unscented, non clumping. I've been changing all their boxes every single day.

They eat canned food (fancy feast poultry flavors) sometimes friskies poultry platter or turkey dinner, sometimes Sheba turkey pate. I have been giving them baby food chicken pretty often the last few days since they love that stuff. For dry food they have access to RC baby cat and before grain chicken.

Phoebe just sneezed a few times and then did a little gag/cough thing while sitting in my lap but then returned to purring and playing with my leg. That was the first sick symptom I have seen from her since late Tuesday night.


We bought this house 6 months ago, re did most of it, and deep cleaned the heck out of everything. It was a foreclosure that had been empty for 2 years. I've had foster kittens since May and nothing like this. I do walk through the grass to get in the house, and we have a dog downstairs, but he is in end stage heart failure and barely makes it outside to use the restroom. He is never even on the same floor as the kittens, he can't go up stairs. We live in the country, but we don't have any feral cats around here as we have a massive coyote population (I so badly wanted a colony here but there is just NO way.)

Aria and Thea who are not sick, as well as phoebe who is sick, as well as Apollo who passed away Saturday and Zeus who passed away a few weeks ago are all one litter and lived together, shared food and water bowls, toys, litter boxes, etc. I don't see how they could have NOT caught it back then if that's what it is. Peter just joined them about 2 weeks ago ( at that point we thought zeus's death was due to a congenital issue with his bowels and malabsorption of some kind, not an illness)

Low white count yes. They do seem gassy, especially Phoebe. When they have diarrhea you can hear it usually. As well as sometimes she passes gas while I'm holding her. No fever ever in any of these.

Update for today: I took both Phoebe and Peter back to the vet around 2 today.

Peter is running a slight fever (just under 103) and his stool are straight liquid. However he is staying hydrated with subq fluids every few hours, which he allows me to do (for the most part)  and is still taking baby food and pedialyte from a syringe. He is still up and walking around, goes across the room to the litter box (even though i have one about 2 feet away from his little bed and comfy hiding place I made him) but his little butt must be sore because he meows when he goes He got another shot for nausea today, because that REALLY helped yesterday. He did not vomit at all yesterday after that until around noon today, so he got another shot at about 2:30. He will likely go back again tomorrow for another. The vet also put him on Endurosyn for diarrhea (I have no experience with this, does anyone else??) Peter has lost one ounce in the last 24 hours

She checked my dosage on the Marquis that the other vet clinic gave me and said it was WAY to low, which was my suspicion, since even a few of the healthy (other than Coccidia) older, vaccinated kittens are STILL having horrible smelling diarrhea after getting the Marquis I was originally given for 5 days. The original dosage was 2.3 mg per pound and my vet gave me some more (since the original on I got was also made into a suspension flavored like butterscotch that smelled horrible and made the kittens gag) and told me to give it at 11mg per pound, and that I could actually give double that without issue.

Phoebe also went back to the vet but she is doing SO well. I gave her subq fluids last night but none since, vet said she didn't need them, she isn't dehydrated at all. She has not vomited since Tuesday but sometimes does a little gagging with sneezing so she went ahead and got another shot for nausea. Her temp is normal. She was still having diarrhea last night but today it is pretty normal, almost totally normal. She is still a little less active than normal but she is doing really well. She has not lost any weight at all.

The other two in the litter, Aria and Thea are totally fine and 100% healthy and normal.


Phoebe


Peter

Endurosyn is great, it's basically supportive care, it is a nutritional supplement as well as vitamins, some probiotic to help balance his distressed intestines, and electrolytes to help him with dehydration.

Peter doesn't look nor sound too good. His inner lids are out I see from the pic.

I wonder about the marquis, if it is being diluted differently from vet to vet, because 11 mls per lb is huge.

Marquis is diluted for cats because it is formulated for horses. Standard dilution is 5 parts paste to 12 parts water to make ponazuril.

You mentioned the butterscotch flavored so I wonder if they are both using the correct dilution.

Ponazuril is not really something to fool with, it is serious, the reason it works so effectively for kitties.

Each large tube of marquis paste has a % of strength, so maybe it differs between the 2 vets?? Hmm...I'm not sure about that one, but 11 mls sounds enormous.

catwoman707 said:

 
Endurosyn is great, it's basically supportive care, it is a nutritional supplement as well as vitamins, some probiotic to help balance his distressed intestines, and electrolytes to help him with dehydration.

Peter doesn't look nor sound too good. His inner lids are out I see from the pic.

I wonder about the marquis, if it is being diluted differently from vet to vet, because 11 mls per lb is huge.

Marquis is diluted for cats because it is formulated for horses. Standard dilution is 5 parts paste to 12 parts water to make ponazuril.

You mentioned the butterscotch flavored so I wonder if they are both using the correct dilution.

Ponazuril is not really something to fool with, it is serious, the reason it works so effectively for kitties.

Each large tube of marquis paste has a % of strength, so maybe it differs between the 2 vets?? Hmm...I'm not sure about that one, but 11 mls sounds enormous.

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It's 11mg of the Ponazuril per lb. (not 11ml per pound, that is a ton!) It ends up being a little under 0.1ml. The clinic had me dosing it as 2.3mg per lb, but my vet says it should be dosed at 11mg per pound. Online I have found everything from 15-100 mg per pound. It is all pretty confusing, but my vet who said to do 11mg per pound uses it frequently because they are they handle all the vetting for an entire TNR program that does thousands of cats a year, so I'm going to take her word for it. The clinic I got it at before is the clinic which I foster thru, who I am not exactly happy with at the moment, and who usually just handles s/n, vaccinations, and worming.

Yeah Peter doesn't look good He has a bit of a fever now too. I'm really concerned. He isn't dehydrated though, and his gums are the right shade of pink. I know he is a little fighter, and I am trying to be hopeful.

Oh lawdy....!   MG vs. ML.....yes.

Soooo haha! Okay, 10 mg=.01 ml

That's a low dose then.

I've been using it for years on maybe 2,000 cats/kittens at my dose of 0.2ml per lb. and it works beautifully.

Anyway, watch to see if his fever goes away but he doesn't act like he is feeling any better, and even might have a below norm temp at some point in the next few days if he makes it.

He's been sick for days now already though right?

He won't be dehydrated either since you are giving him fluids regularly. That has the ability to literally save a cats life, as you probably know, so maybe, just maybe it will sustain him enough to get through this.

I'm hoping.

Phoebe is doing okay still? No signs coming out of the other 2 yet?

Crazy.

He is still alive, looks horrible though he will hardly take any food i'm syringe feeding him but i'm still doing fluids every 3 hours more or less. His temp was up to 104.3 when i took it a few hours ago. He vomited pretty bad about 4 hours ago, it was just clear spit though, no bile or food, it had been a little while since he had eaten. He took some nutri-cal though. Poor baby is going to the litter box and having totally liquid diarrhea (in very small volume, just a drip sometimes) ever few hours. No blood in it though. If he can make it another 5 and a half hours till my vet opens i will take him back in and see if they will do IV fluids and electrolytes and all of that. He just wants to sleep right now. No more vomiting since that one episode.

Phoebe is doing totally fine. The other two are also doing totally fine, a little loose stools but so are most of the kittens because the coccida is not cleared up yet.

He first started vomiting a little about 4 days ago now i think. He started acting sick and refusing food on Thursday, so he has basically lived off of fluids and syringe fed baby food and pedialyte or formula and pedialyte, nutri cal, etc since then I'm thinking he may of ate some on his own Thursday but it's burring together now.