Sebastian is Back at the Vet...Suspected Pancreatitis Again :(

Im struggling with a beloved cat with pancreatitis too, and he may lose his fight, because he developed restrictive cardiomyopathy, which is limiting our ability to treat him in some way.  But I have been taking his temperature virtually hourly while trying him on various foods to feed him while he is flaring, and one thing I have noticed FOR SURE, fat seems to spike his temperature, indicating it is causing inflammation. 

I can feed him all carbs with no spike, mild carbs, just like people with pancreatitis report they can eat, and plain gelatin mixed in for protein, but fat............... thats a no go.  Im experimenting with MCT fats right now, because he is skin and bones and will die soon if I cannot get him to eat more calorie rich foods. 

Vets always insist that cats have protein allergies, at least mine have, and maybe they do, but in my cat, the idea that fat is okay for cats while they are flaring and to prevent new flares, is absolutely not true.  I wish I had known that sooner.  Experiment with lower fat content in his food, and see if that helps.  Or,  look into MCT oils yourself, they are easier on the pancreas, they are absorbed differently. 

Good luck.  I hope you do better than I am.  It took way, way too long for us to get a diagnosis of pancreatitis, and Im not sure Im going to be able to pull him out of this one.  His vet put him on high dose Dexamethasone and that sent him into heart failure.  Why? Im not sure.  Dexamethasone has been shown to cause cardiomyopathies, so it could be that, or, it could be that the immune suppressing dose he gave him allowed a bacterial infection to jump in and trash his poor little heart.  Either way, things do not look good for my boy. 

Im still trying though, and Im keeping detailed and scrupulous notes.  I really do think the vets are all wrong on the fat issue as it relates to cats. 

I'm so sorry to hear your cat is suffering from pancreatitis, Alyseal.    It's a very painful, frustrating condition in which we seem helpless to treat. I hope he pulls through. 

There are a lot of resources that do say a fat-restrictive diet isn't as important in cats as it is in dogs, but I'm sure there are cats that are sensitive to fats.

Sending many vibes for your kitty... 

Glad to read Sebastian is doing well! So, do you think the probiotics are helping? TIgger has the same issue with SMELLY poop. My new vet thought MAYBE it meant his anal glands are leaking  . Hehe, regarding the drool. Hopefully he is just extremely content you are his mommy lovin' on him! The blood when giving fluids is strange. I feel like I remember reading blood can mean you hit a blood vessel, but I'm not sure... I imagine it's okay as long as he isn't bleeding a lot, which it doesn't sound like he is. 

Oh my, Alyseal, I'm very very sorry you are going through this with your precious kitty. I wish there was something I could do. It is the worst, most helpless feeling not to be able to help your kitty. I'm so sorry! I hope your kitty recovers soon!!

Thank you whoever posted that link about coconut oil.   Thank you, thank you, thank you.   This,

"Some researchers theorize Crohn’s is caused by a bacterium called mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis, or MAP. A Journal of Clinical Microbiology article published in July, 2003, found MAP in 92 percent of Crohn's patients who were examined. This compared to 26 percent of people in a control group, according to lead author T.J. Bull of St. George's Hospital Medical School in London. Coconut oil kills the H. pyloris bacterium, which can cause ulcers in humans, so may also be beneficial in combating MAP, theorizes Bruce Fife in his book “The Coconut Oil Miracle.”"

Is enormously helpful to me.  Smith developed restrictive cardiomyopathy when his vet put him on a ridiculously high dose of Dexamethasone, and there were two possibilities, one, that the DEX had caused the heart condition directly, as it has been shown to do, there is a study from the University of Chicago regarding it, or, it could have unmasked a hidden infection. 

Mycobacterium Avium is one of the relatively few possible known causes of Restrictive Cardiomyopathy.  I discovered that while backtracking following up the possibility that the issue could have been that the immune suppressing dose of DEX may have unmasked something.  M. Avium can cause ALL my cats symptoms.  ALL of them.  Every single one.  But, to test for it, you have to culture a tissue or blood sample.  Which can take weeks, and which I asked her to, and which she sidestepped.   You need Azithromycin (sp? of the Z pak fame) to treat it, very long courses, and I begged her to prescribe it "just in case."  She didnt.  And I am at a serious disadvantage here in Tennessee.  She is at UT, its the best I can get.  There is no place better nearby. 

BUT..... I ordered Azithromycin off the internet myself yesterday out of desperation.  ( My boy is dying, at only 8lbs, he has no time left to wait around)  I am even more convinced after that coconut oil article that that is, indeed, what is wrong with my Smith.  It may still be too late for him, but I am THRILLED that you posted that article.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339272/

 

iLovePrincess said:

 
Glad to read Sebastian is doing well! So, do you think the probiotics are helping? TIgger has the same issue with SMELLY poop. My new vet thought MAYBE it meant his anal glands are leaking 

. Hehe, regarding the drool. Hopefully he is just extremely content you are his mommy lovin' on him! The blood when giving fluids is strange. I feel like I remember reading blood can mean you hit a blood vessel, but I'm not sure... I imagine it's okay as long as he isn't bleeding a lot, which it doesn't sound like he is. 

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Thank you! Well, I'm not sure what's helping. It could just be that the inflammation is under control right now and he's feeling good. I've being REALLY careful about not giving him any supplements with fillers or anything that could possibly trigger inflammation. I've increased the fish oil frequency, and I now give about 4-5 drops in his gel cap with the meds every morning. He'll allow only 1 drop (for now) in his food.    I bought the Jarrow S. Boulardii+MOS, but I've decided not to use it for him. There's just too many fillers in it. I'm going to try another brand that doesn't have fillers (either Thorne Research Sacro-B or Advanced Naturals BoulardiiMAX). I'm introducing things slowly and hope to do digestive enzymes next. Maybe the enzymes will help with the poo. I'm due to give him fluids tonight, so we'll see how it goes. And no, he wasn't bleeding a lot; it wasn't even red, just a little pink.

There is one other thing I've noticed more frequently lately. He's shaking his head. It's a quick shake, almost as though he's got something in his mouth, or maybe his ear or nose is bothering him. I looked in his ears. They don't appear red or inflamed. His nose and mouth look okay. So, I'm not sure why he's shaking his head. I'll mention it to the vet. I know Cerenia depletes Substance-P and can cause tremors, but this doesn't look like a tremor. Oh! I just read that a side effect of Cerenia is hypersalivation/drooling!!!

One final thought...I've actually noticed an improvement in all of my cats lately. Less vomiting, better stools, seem to be feeling good, etc. The only change I've made across the board for all three cats is their water source.    Makes me think I should get my tap water tested.

Alyseal said:

 
Thank you whoever posted that link about coconut oil.   Thank you, thank you, thank you.   This,

"Some researchers theorize Crohn’s is caused by a bacterium called mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis, or MAP. A Journal of Clinical Microbiology article published in July, 2003, found MAP in 92 percent of Crohn's patients who were examined. This compared to 26 percent of people in a control group, according to lead author T.J. Bull of St. George's Hospital Medical School in London. Coconut oil kills the H. pyloris bacterium, which can cause ulcers in humans, so may also be beneficial in combating MAP, theorizes Bruce Fife in his book “The Coconut Oil Miracle.”"

Is enormously helpful to me.  Smith developed restrictive cardiomyopathy when his vet put him on a ridiculously high dose of Dexamethasone, and there were two possibilities, one, that the DEX had caused the heart condition directly, as it has been shown to do, there is a study from the University of Chicago regarding it, or, it could have unmasked a hidden infection. 

Mycobacterium Avium is one of the relatively few possible known causes of Restrictive Cardiomyopathy.  I discovered that while backtracking following up the possibility that the issue could have been that the immune suppressing dose of DEX may have unmasked something.  M. Avium can cause ALL my cats symptoms.  ALL of them.  Every single one.  But, to test for it, you have to culture a tissue or blood sample.  Which can take weeks, and which I asked her to, and which she sidestepped.   You need Azithromycin (sp? of the Z pak fame) to treat it, very long courses, and I begged her to prescribe it "just in case."  She didnt.  And I am at a serious disadvantage here in Tennessee.  She is at UT, its the best I can get.  There is no place better nearby. 

BUT..... I ordered Azithromycin off the internet myself yesterday out of desperation.  ( My boy is dying, at only 8lbs, he has no time left to wait around)  I am even more convinced after that coconut oil article that that is, indeed, what is wrong with my Smith.  It may still be too late for him, but I am THRILLED that you posted that article.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339272/

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I think any "ridiculously high" dose of any prescription medicine could cause serious side effects. I know you're struggling right now to get your kitty back on track, but please be careful about buying prescriptions online, especially if they don't ask for or verify that you have a prescription. I read about this M. Avium that you posted about. It is definiately an interesting thing to consider. The study made it seem as though it is very rare in cats.  

Lots of vibes for your kitty.     If you haven't already, I suggest starting your own thread in the Cat Health forum. That way, more people will see it and can respond and offer their support specific to your situation.

What I would say is "it is very rarely DIAGNOSED in cats."  They dont find what they are not looking for.  I actually brought this disease up with my vet a couple weeks ago and wanted him tested for it, but he is too debilitated to get biopsies.  (Anesthetic would be highly risky) and she didnt think a blood smear was worth while.  I do now, and Im going to get one, but, to confirm the diagnosis they have to culture the thing, and that can take weeks.  He doesnt have that kind of time anymore. 

Lymphoma is "common in older cats" but what I would say is, "its commonly diagnosed."  How often do they do necropsy?  My vet told me that when they look for IBD they often cannot tell for sure the difference.  How many people just accept the diagnosis, treat accordingly, and then when the pet dies accept that they died from that, without ever REALLY knowing?  Im more nit picky about cause and effect relationships and tying down details.  (Philosophy major, logic and analysis is my thing)  If someone tells me something is this or that, I want a solid evidence based foundation for that claim.  Not just "Well, I went to vet school" or med school. 

When this all started, years ago, his vet at the time did the Giardia test and made a comment to me, "There are lots of rod shaped things in there."  And that was all he said.  I asked him what they were, but he just shrugged and wasnt concerned, because he found what he was looking for.  Giardia.  I have told every vet since that about that, and not ONE has cared to investigate, even though I wanted to.  I found it odd and suspicious. 

Doing more research since the coconut oil article, I have found M. Avium is actually being researched as a CAUSE of IBD in humans.  As well as Crohns.  What Im kind of wondering is..... there seems to be a diet link as well in these diseases, maybe cats didnt USED to get this disease as much because they didnt used to eat as much carbs.  Maybe this little bugger does better, thrives, in tummies that have a high carb diet.  Like the animals that are known to be susceptible to it. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19462429

http://gut.bmj.com/content/54/7/896

The treatments for IBD tend to go after symptoms.  But what if "the body is attacking itself" because there is an inter cellular bacteria infiltrating the various tissues?  Thats the theory behind this research.  And I, personally, agree.  Immune suppressing drugs can "unmask" infections that are "hidden."  (Which may be what happened with Smiths heart)  And giving Pred. etc reduces inflammation, but, if that inflammation is there for a reason, a bacteria in the cells themselves, it will just come back, and, most of the time, is does in people and pets with IBD. 

And, this little monster can disseminate, into the spleen, heart, bone marrow, liver, PANCREAS, sound familiar?

My cat is so debilitated right now even if this IS what he has, he may not survive.   I would say, if someone has the money, and they are willing to look, it would be worth bringing up to your vet.   Something like this would explain clusters of "IBD" in households.   I noticed one poster (I forget her name) said she had two kitties with trouble and she herself did too.  Well, I have trouble, and  Smiths Mom, who lived with us for a while, (her owner is my college roommate) also is suffering from IBD.  

This stuff is often in the water.  Soil.  Its all around.  Maybe we ALL got it from the same source.  It just cropped up in us at different times because our immune systems fought it differentially.  Who knows.

I personally find "mystery" conditions like IBD annoying.   Descriptions of symptoms with no known cause or understanding of why this and that happens.  And treating the symptoms, (like people do even with colds and flu) can be a bad idea.  That might make you feel better for a while, but if there really IS a bad guy causing trouble, all you are doing is helping it out for a short reprieve from your symptoms.  EVERYTHING has a cause, its just "what is it?" Genetics are often brought up, but in many houses with multiple cats, the cats who have it arent related by blood.  Just by environment.  That tends to make me think, "infectious." 

Obviously this is no sure thing, but for Smith, he is a goner if I dont try it, so he has nothing to lose.  He has maybe a week or two left at this rate, at best.  I have almost taken him in for the big sleep a couple of times, now, but relented because he really didnt want to go, and I really dont want to give up either. 

I WILL have him autopsied, when his time comes, and I will share my findings, because I dont just want to save Smith, I want to do the best I can, (like many of you do too) to prevent other people and their beloved animals from suffering and dying from this horrible disease.  Whatever it turns out to be.  

And Im sorry, I wasnt trying to hijack your thread.    I really do apologize.  Thank you for the good vibes.  I just really identified with your case.  Good vibes too Sebastian, too.  

Oh, interesting about the water. I give Tigger tap water, but I would love if I could afford to give him bottled water. Are you filtering their water?

Ah, I'm glad you found a possible explanation for the drooling. The shaking of the head is strange. The only time I notice Tigger shaking his head, it's because his ears are bothering him. He seems to get a lot of build-up in his ears, though. I've showed vets and they don't seem to think anything is abnormal. I hate all these side effects, it makes me so paranoid harm is being done.

My cat recently started getting the build up in his ears.  When I took him to the vet she cleaned out his ears and it looked like just wax to me.  She looked at the stuff that came out of his ears under the microscope and it had yeast in it.  She said it was probably a secondary food allergy.  Patches also has IBD.  It seems like this chronic digestive stuff also makes a cat more vulnerable to other symptoms from food allergies.  He can't tolerate beef and I had been mainly feeding him chicken.  That made figuring out his food difficult and I am feeding him more fish, not exclusively, but more than what I would like.  She gave him some drops to clear up the infection.  I've quit feeding chicken and his ears have remained clean.

Alyseal, I can tell you're trying to do everything you can to save your boy.     My first and foremost theory on all of this was bacteria, as well, just as you are now theorizing. So I definitely know where you're coming from. The problem is, there's just not enough studies done, and not enough specific tests available that aren't overly invasive. The influx of "IBD" cases does disturb me. I want to talk to you about Smith. I just think it would be helpful if he had his own thread. That way others can find your thread and learn about what you're going through. This thread is SO long that not many people will read through the whole thing to finally see your post(s).

iLovePrincess said:

 
Oh, interesting about the water. I give Tigger tap water, but I would love if I could afford to give him bottled water. Are you filtering their water?

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I used to use a Brita filter, until I read that it's not really doing anything except making it taste better. Plus, I experienced first hand that when I used tap or Brita-filtered tap, it would always leave a slime in the cat fountains after one day. Now that I'm using purified water from gallon jugs...no slime. I still clean them every other day or so, but it's much easier without all the gunk.

Denice said:

 
My cat recently started getting the build up in his ears.  When I took him to the vet she cleaned out his ears and it looked like just wax to me.  She looked at the stuff that came out of his ears under the microscope and it had yeast in it.  She said it was probably a secondary food allergy.  Patches also has IBD.  It seems like this chronic digestive stuff also makes a cat more vulnerable to other symptoms from food allergies.  He can't tolerate beef and I had been mainly feeding him chicken.  That made figuring out his food difficult and I am feeding him more fish, not exclusively, but more than what I would like.  She gave him some drops to clear up the infection.  I've quit feeding chicken and his ears have remained clean.

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And vice versa...food allergies make a cat more vulnerable to chronic digestive stuff.     The shaking of Sebastian's head could possibly be his ear(s). He had an ear infection earlier this year, and a red rash that would come and go on his ear flap. Interestingly, the rash disappeared and has not returned since starting him on the rabbit diet. So, I definitely think he's got multiple things going on, including food allergies. Makes me want to scream!  

Just checking on Sebastian. I'm sorry to hear about the allergies and ear problems. That has to be frustrating. Sometimes screaming helps! Lol, only if you can scream where nobody will hear! Hang in there.

I just wanted to send to you and Sebastian many

I can't be of help as I have no experience with what you are going through but I am following the thread and all my positive thoughts go your way.

And vice versa...food allergies make a cat more vulnerable to chronic digestive stuff.  :scratch:   The shaking of Sebastian's head could possibly be his ear(s). He had an ear infection earlier this year, and a red rash that would come and go on his ear flap. Interestingly, the rash disappeared and has not returned since starting him on the rabbit diet. So, I definitely think he's got multiple things going on, including food allergies. Makes me want to scream!  

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...all of which are immune-system related, and inflammation-based. And the infections a result of weakened immune system. Again, it may be worth a visit to the holistic vet who can look at your cat from a "whole being" point of view, rather than trying to treat each individual thing, that ultimately are likely all related.

Yes, I'm going to bug you about this. :heart2:

Just thinking about you and Sebastian and hoping you both are doing okay. 

I will scream with you, holistic 

Thank you all. Sebastian is feeling good (other than the occasional head shaking). He's been very happy and playful and eating well.

LDG said:

...all of which are immune-system related, and inflammation-based. And the infections a result of weakened immune system. Again, it may be worth a visit to the holistic vet who can look at your cat from a "whole being" point of view, rather than trying to treat each individual thing, that ultimately are likely all related.

Yes, I'm going to bug you about this.

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Love it.     

I meant to reply to the thread in Nutrition, but ... didn't (yet). :lol3: I saw you have a plan for that, so my "bugging" is done.



The main thing is that Sebastian is stable, feeling good, and happy!

How old is he? I thought I knew, but if I did, I don't remember.

LDG said:

How old is he? I thought I knew, but if I did, I don't remember.

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He's estimated to be about 12 years old.

Thanks. For some reason I had "16" stuck in my head, but I was pretty sure that wasn't correct.

From a discussion of contributing factors to IBD in another thread, when Carolina asked about BPA and inflammation, I did a quick google search in the car while we were driving around today (Gary was driving. ). I was pretty sure I'd seen BPA pointed out as a possible contributing factor in IBD. It is - but it's not straightforward (of course. :lol3: ).

This article is REALLY interesting, and my VERY short "research take" on BPA is that in children - especially prenatal - it can cause all kinds of problems, especially for females vs. males, and the exposure young has an impact later in life. So what that has to do with cats and IBD, I don't really know, but BPA does impact the permeability of the epithelial barrier. That was very interesting.

The report: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/1/448.full

"Impact of oral bisphenol A at reference doses on intestinal barrier function and sex differences after perinatal exposure in rats"

Anyway, the point is this very short quote from this study that popped out at me.

Colorectal distention (CRD) induces abdominal contractions

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Now, I don't know what colorectal distention is. But it seems to me it means that problems in the bowel can cause vomiting. This doesn't help clear anything up, of course. But it does potentially mean the problem, even though expressed as vomiting, isn't upper GI.