Chum and Laz are having dentals... Chum has FORL

Chumley is FIV+ positive, so it shouldn't come as any big surprise. He had to have three teeth extracted last year, but none were due to FORL.

Tuxedo, Billy, and Sheldon had dentals a month or so ago, and Shel had to have two teeth removed due to FORL.

(For those that don't know, FORL is Feline odontoclastic resorptive lesion - basically kind of like a cavity, but unlike in people, cleaning and "filling" them doesn't help; basically their bodies are "resorbing" (??) the calcium in the teeth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_odontoclastic_resorptive_lesion . The only solution is tooth removal. )

The vet called to say they hadn't even done the x-rays yet, but a visual exam of Chum's mouth showed his upper left canine has FORL, so he's going to lose at least that canine.

They both had their annual dentals this past Friday, and Chum did have signs of gingivitis again.

Chum could use a few vibes.....

Poor baby boy!

Sending lots of healing vibes!!

Thanks.

Well, Lazlo had one too! His was a premolar, so he just need it extracted, no stitches or anything.

The dentist said that Lazlo's x-rays look as if there is further potential FORL activity, but nothing to do now. He needs to go back in 6 months.

She doesn't see anything on Chumley's x-ray that looks like there's anything currently brewing... but with his FIV, we're probably best off bringing him in every six months too. He'll be coming home with pain meds, and needs soft food for a few meals because of the stitches.

My poor boys.

Well, at least that's five down, three to go.... :cross:

Poor boys! I hope the pain meds help.

How is Chumley's FIV doing?

Prayers they are both fine.

We haven't decided whether or not to test his CD4+ and CD8+ cell counts. It would have to be done at a University lab - I think there are only a couple in the country? :dk: He otherwise looks great and from his exam and check-up appears to be quite healthy - and is asymptomatic.

Turns out the dentist (who is new to the practice, she specializes in the dental work) has an FIV kitty.

Wow, that is kind of strange that so many of your cats have this going on with their teeth, isn't it?  I wonder if it's possible that it's related to their raw diet?  I did some googling, and did see that FORLs may be caused by too much calcium and/or too much Vit. D.  But you are so meticulous in your research and measuring that I wouldn't think this would be your issue.  I just thought maybe there was some general correlation between raw and FORLs.  Couldn't find anything. 

Since research is your thing, I'm guessing you'll check into it and figure out what's causing it, IF there is a cause that can be prevented.  I suppose it could even be something as simply as your water supply?  Or maybe it's just a coincidence  that so many of your cats have this issue?  I've read that it is actually fairly common.  Sven had to have some teeth pulled, and we were just told he needed it, not why.  Maybe he had it too?

 for quick recoveries for the boys

My vet told me that this has been with cats at least since domestication.  She said that it has been found in cats placed in the ancient tombs in Egypt.  She said that they aren't really sure exactly what causes it so of course the tendency is to label it as autoimmune.

Seems like when it rains it pours.  I am sure that with your care all of your kitties will get through it.

Well, the "coincidence" is just that everyone's getting dentals. Only Spooky and Chumley get them annually. We haven't had the money for the others for quite some time. I honestly don't know when any of their last dentals were. :anon: It's been at least five years. :anon: Shel's had been going for so long, it would have had to start prior to the raw diet. Same for Lazlo's. Chum is naturally prone to them because of his FIV.

FORLs are actually quite common - the most common reason for tooth removal.

mrsgreenjeens said:

...IF there is a cause that can be prevented.  I suppose it could even be something as simply as your water supply? 

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The kitties don't drink water any longer, and for years we gave them distilled water - then Fiji water, which is pH neutral.

But as Denice says, no one has a clue what causes them. There may be correlations observed at this point, but no way to prevent them...

I've read that 2/3 cats have FORL. I didn't realize it was that common.

:nod: It's like cavities in people, basically.

ETA: I spoke to the dentist when I picked the boys up. Unfortunately, with cats, even brushing their teeth doesn't really seem to help prevent this. It starts up under the gum line - which is one of the reasons it's so important to get anesthetic dentals done with x-rays.

LDG said:

Well, the "coincidence" is just that everyone's getting dentals. .

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AND - that will probably be my next "issue (s)". I have put them off as well. Pipsqueak definitely needs one. So I can see why the same thing (which is typical in cats) is going with your kids. I do think FORL is a very, very common problem in cats and most people (me included - until recently) don't have a clue about the condition.

LDG said:

:nod: It's like cavities in people, basically.

ETA: I spoke to the dentist when I picked the boys up. Unfortunately, with cats, even brushing their teeth doesn't really seem to help prevent this. It starts up under the gum line - which is one of the reasons it's so important to get anesthetic dentals done with x-rays.

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and unfortunately for people this is also called Furcation which lets tons of bacteria up into the gums. Brushing won't help with that, you need deep scaling. Kitty dental care is so important and something I didn't even realize until joining TCS and learning about dental care for cats. Unfortunately, it hits the pocket book hard when you have multiple kitties.

MEGA MEGA MEGA enormous kisses and scritches :rub: to all of our little dental patients and that they are all doing well today, recovering. :rub: :heart2:

FORLs suck. Sebastian and Boo had dentals recently that revealed FORLs. Boo had 3 teeth extracted (both lower canines and a premolar) and Sebastian had 6 extracted (which included an upper canine tooth).

Wishing you all best and hope everything goes smoothly!

i will be sending healing prayers for your babies dental surgery. I have been with so many chronic health problems with my guys and now the dental is kicking in. I had started a new thread on dental but since I'm new I have not seen it yet. My girl is 13 she had 12 teeth removed a few weeks ago including a upper canine. I had never heard of FORL till the vet mentioned it. They ruled that out but she had decay and it went into the bone I feel awful but I have beaten myself up enough over it. I have had so much vet bills with my other boys chronic allergies and respiratory problems I thought as long as she was eating she was alright, not the case. 

My Socks had two FORL teeth removed last week.  It must be national cat dental month!  I didn't realize Socks had an issue with her teeth or was feeling pain, but now that those teeth are gone, she's become a lively cat.  Good luck Laurie with all your kitties! 

Wow, what Laz and Chum went through seem like nothing. Oh, the poor babies!

Fortunately, Laz and Chum are healing up just fine. Laz was fine the next day. Chumley was too, but both have been drinking a lot of water post-dental. Neither seems to be having any trouble eating. And unlike Sebastian, Chum doesn't seem to be having an issue with his lower canine cutting into his lip. :cross: There's certainly nothing visible on the outside. ...I just worry that I'll never know when Chum's in pain - he was an older feral when we took him in, and he's got that stoic nature.

Glad to hear it all went well! 

OK, so a week late, we went back for the follow-up. Thankfully, the canine removal healed just fine.

BUT... his lower canine IS digging into his upper gum! It's not bleeding, but it is inflamed. Not infected. But it's got to hurt. As it isn't affecting his grooming and eating though, we're going to let it create the callous. :cross:

Before the vet saw him, I told her about Sebastian and nccarol's kitty. The vet was just saying something along the lines of yes, it does happen, but it's infrequent in her experience.... and she looked at Chum's gum, and said "Wow! Look!" She was puzzling over it, because his other canines are lined up in a way that look like the lower wouldn't puncture his gum if the upper was removed... but apparently the removal caused things to shift enough that (at least on this side) it was (is) a problem.

LDG said:

OK, so a week late, we went back for the follow-up. Thankfully, the canine removal healed just fine.

BUT... his lower canine IS digging into his upper gum! It's not bleeding, but it is inflamed. Not infected. But it's got to hurt.

As it isn't affecting his grooming and eating though, we're going to let it create the callous.

Before the vet saw him, I told her about Sebastian and nccarol's kitty. The vet was just saying something along the lines of yes, it does happen, but it's infrequent in her experience.... and she looked at Chum's gum, and said "Wow! Look!"

She was puzzling over it, because his other canines are lined up in a way that look like the lower wouldn't puncture his gum if the upper was removed... but apparently the removal caused things to shift enough that (at least on this side) it was (is) a problem.

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OH NO! Bummer!  Poor Chum! I guess the vets make their best educated guess, but things happen and I suppose we can't be right in every prediction. I was really hoping Chum wouldn't have this same problem. I mean, it's not critical, but just another nuisance our poor babies don't need. 

It bothered Sebastian for awhile (like 6-8 weeks), turning very red and raw, and sometimes bleeding. I would dab it occasionally with a homemade simple saline (1 cup purified or distilled water to 1/4 teaspoon salt, mixed thoroughly until dissolved) AFTER his dinner when he was relaxed and ready for bed. That way he'd sleep and give it rest. The jabbing occurred when eating, grooming, and meowing. Update: His upper lip is getting much better and is starting to hold up to the constant jabbing. It's hardly red at all now. The tooth will get caught on the lip and give that "sneer" that we laughed about, but it's like he doesn't even notice.

So, if you're willing to hold out and wait it out, it should get better.