Male neutered cat, diagnosed with crystals in urine

thedivineoomba · Aug 8, 2013

Hello There! My cat is just out of the clinic after a trip to the emergency for plugged urinary tract. The vet did the normal thing, catheter, flushed his system with fluids, etc. Luckily, I caught it in before it went septic, and Ezra came through just fine.

My question is about diet. I feed half a 12 ounce can of various grain free cat food ( no fish, except salmon once in awhile), 1/2 cup of grain free dry, which he grazes upon as he feels necessary, and than a whole can of fancy feast (which is junk, but I think of it as dessert). My cat doesn't gulp down his food, and will graze throughout the day., somedays, he eats all of it, others only a portion. He also drinks water like crazy.

So, I don't feel this is a diet issue - or a water issue. The vet thought maybe genetics? And, of course, Hills Science Diet CD was prescribed. I'm concerned about quality of cat food and I have problems with feeding one food for the rest of Ezra's life. I also have another cat, older female, that is a bit chubby ( but not obese, still very active) and this makes it so much more problematic.

I can give up the dry cat food and the fancy feast. But... Without a clear reason for why this happened, I am leaning towards the vets advice. I am not up for making my own cat food.

So, my questions are this... Should I go with an all wet- grain free, high protein cat food, even knowing that it might the cat, rather than the food... And if I do... Is there an early detection for crystals(maybe PH), so I can catch before it becomes an emergency? Or maybe even test the food?

vball91 · Aug 8, 2013

I would recommend an all wet diet, grain/starch/fish free as all those can be inflammation triggers for FLUTD cats.

By crystals, do you mean struvite crystals? If so, there are definitely things you can do to monitor the situation. Struvites tend to form in high urine pH (usually over 7.0). You can check his pH at home regularly. Also you can add l-methionine to his food as needed. It's the active ingredient in all urinary Rx foods.

franksmom · Aug 8, 2013

Firstly in my opinion the best thing you can do for a UTI is to switch to all wet. I know you primarily feed wet but getting more moisture into the cat will only help. I also advise to always add extra water when you feed wet. I would also get a water fountain to encourage him to drink more.

An all wet diet will also help your other cat who is overweight as dry adds a lot of empty calories to their diets.

I would really take a look at (www.catinfo.org) it is a great site written by a vet and she has a great section on both urinary tract health and obesity. She advocates putting as much water in their diet and is not a fan of the C/D foods. However, I do know some cats do well on the wet version of this food, but I think it is a good idea to try an all wet diet first and try get as much water into him as possible before switching. You also want to find foods low in phosphorus -below ~1.0-1.2% dry matter (not 'as fed'), or below ~250-300 mg/100 kcal. Dr. Pierson over at catinfo also has a chart which shows this information for a lot of canned foods (http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf)

The best thing to do is monitor your cats litter box and make sure he sure he is peeing big urine clumps. I know some people on here monitor their cats urine with PH sticks. I also noticed a new brand of litter in the pet store which is supposed to monitor ph (http://www.pestell.com/pet/life_mate.php). I have no idea if this product works or is a good litter but it might be worth looking into. Someone else may have some better information on this aspect of your question.

thedivineoomba · Aug 8, 2013

I'm glad that you are responding like this - I have the CD diet, both wet and dry from the vet. I'm probably going to feed both cats this until gone. My grain free dry cat food will be going to the humane society.

I just read through the itemeized receipt/instructions I got back today. It just says crystals - Although he was giving Clavamox and Prazosin for me to give for a week or two (its in the fridge... its been a long week. Vet tech said give morning and night, and instructions are on the bottle which I don't remember how long I was suppose to give it)

I like the catinfo.org site. It was my primary reason for switching to a mostly grain free diet - although I haven't been there in while. That chart is something I need to wade through when I am not so tired.

As for l-methionine - Is this a prescription or over the counter?

I really wish their was a vet nearby who specializes in cats and is willing to work with diet. I love my vet clinic.... but it would be nice to not have a one size fits all type solution.

Thank you for your responses! -Carrie

vball91 · Aug 8, 2013

Clavamox is an antibiotic which is given by a lot of vets just in case there is a bacterial infection, but it's generally not effective unless Clavamox is effective against the specific type of bacteria present (if present at all). Prazosin is for bladder spasms. It seems like your vet is taking a broad spectrum approach. Was a urinalysis done? Or a culture & sensitivity test? Those tests identify the specific issues. If those tests are negative, then it's generally considered sterile cystitis (bladder inflammation of unknown origin) which is generally attributed to stress.

thedivineoomba · Aug 8, 2013

These are all good questions - And ones I should have asked. At the time, it was emergency visit, and when I picked him up over lunch when I only I had a few minutes... I did talk to the vet on the phone... and I paid attention... but after hearing "My cat is okay".... I kind of zoned out.

Also, I didn't know I should have asked these questions... which is horrible, because I just spent yesterday and today lecturing a colleague about not knowing does not equal not asking questions at work I am going to call the vets office tomorrow and get more details - Thank you point out what I SHOULD be asking about. I'll have more details tomorrow.

franksmom · Aug 8, 2013

It is very understandable to not ask these types of questions when these types of things happen. Don't beat yourself up we have all been there.

As for the l-methionine it is a supplement and I have seen it in some UT cat supplements like UT Ease, but I am not sure how well it works. Jackson Galaxy also has a line of flower essences and one is supposed to help with urinary issues (http://store.jacksongalaxy.com/UR-Fine-p/ur-fine.htm)

donnajean · Aug 9, 2013

My male cat of three years old developed Struvite crystals about 8 months ago.

I was feeding all three of my male cats a high quality grain free diet and trying to incorporate canned grain free.

let me see, I believe they were on Blue Wilderness dry , grain free when my boy developed the crystals.

I had a fill in vet (my vet was gone) and she put him on Royal Canin S/O. The mistake was she said after a month I could switch him back to a regular food and I did not know (since she did not tell me)he should have returned for another U/A to see if he was clear of crystals and infection before changing diet.

After a month I switched him back and within two weeks we were back to the vet, crystals again.

He has been on Royal canin S/O since and we went to a new vet (two months ago)and he had a sono and culture which revealed a normal bladder and no crystals.

I also give him some canned (he has to have it watered down like soup otherwise he won't eat it) , Royal Canin S/O canned and also some grain free canned.

I would really like to get him off of this food, worried though that he may develop crystals again. The Royal Canin S/O must be working since he has developed no more crystals (8 Months) but I prefer a grain free cat food without corn, etc which seems to be in all the RX foods.

My new vet said after a year of being on the rX diet I could try again a non RX cat food and see what happens.

So, am I pleased with the over priced RX food that has grains? No... But for right now till probably after the first of the year I will keep doing what I am doing .

The W/D most cats turn their noses up at, along with any of the Hill's Urinary RX diets, but my cat doesn't seem to mind the Royal Canin S/O...

Grain free, dry especially you have to really watch, thinking since it is grain free it is low in carbs, that is not always true because they put potatoes, veggies, fruits in it and there is a way to calculate the total carbs, etc..you can go to ScheyderWeb cat food nutrition Calculator, put in the Guaranteed analysis and get the total carbs for any cat food..

vball91 · Aug 9, 2013

L-methionine is an amino acid available OTC at most health food stores. Two brands I know of are Solgar and NOW. Both are just the amino acid only. I would not recommend the other formulations that have other stuff in them. L-methionine is very effective at lowering urine pH. Again, it's the active ingredient in all of the urinary prescription foods. In fact, it is so effective at lowering pH that if you are going to use it, you really must monitor the pH at home daily to ensure that it doesn't drop too low. Below 6.0, the urine is too acidic, and then you risk calcium oxalate stones forming which can only be removed by surgery. L-methionine (and therefore all Rx foods) are helpful when the problem is struvite crystals forming in urine that is too alkaline (too high a pH)

donnajean · Aug 9, 2013

yes my cat's Ph was 7.0 when he first developed the crystals, last check at vet it was 6.4....a person can try what you recommended with the supplement but have to monitor everyday as you stated.

The Royal Canin as overpriced and crappy as it has a RSS (relative super saturation methodology predicts the crystallization potential of urine, RSS is used to develop diets that lower the concentration of ions contributing to struvite and oxalate crystals.

My boy eats the moderate calorie diet, they also have the regular s/o....it has more fat and calories...

It also has something in it that makes them drink more but he does not urinate frequently, the usual every 8-10 hours, but the urine volume is more.

I say what ever works, I may try in a few months switching him over and going with the supplement....

maewkaew · Aug 9, 2013

I would consider totally ditching the dry food and just putting him on low carb wet -- try to avoid not just grains but food with a lot of vegetables. Higher carb food tends to make urine more alkaline which promotes struvite crystals. ( So the prescription foods that are high carb seem pretty illogical -- they just add acidifier to the food. Unfortunately sometimes it overdoes it and the cat ends up with urine TOO acidic, and gets calcium oxalate stones that have to be surgically removed. )There's been some discussion on this forum about grain free dry foods and urinary problems. I think it was something to do with the magnesium content of some of the grain free dry foods., that some members' cats had problems with crystals on grain free dry even if they also got wet food. There are no doubt other factors that predispose a cat to that problem, since other cats eat similar food and don't have it.

donnajean · Aug 9, 2013

Sounds like a great idea but....I have another cat three years old that was diagnosed with pancreatitis two weeks ago and has been rechecked and is fine now . However I took him back to the vet two days ago due to finding undigested food (throw up) and x-ray indicates that he must probably has IBD . Now he is on a special diet food not only for the IBD but also because of Allergies (scratching, etc..)

My struvite cat will only lick at canned food , I have to make it like soup and he drinks up the liquid and he's through with it.

Boo, my possible IBD and Allergy cat (allergic to what, don't know but suspect food) well ,he now isn't supose to have any canned cat foods except the Z/D canned which is completely grain free, but he won't even touch it !

I am at my wits end, I do have a third cat , Peanut, he is also around three, so far (keeping my fingers crossed) he is healthy...

Peanut will eat about anything, although he also likes his canned a little soupy ..

All my cats at one time were on grain free cat foods (Evo way before any recalls, Natural balance LID Duck & Pea, Blue Wilderness) and I always TRIED to incorporate as much canned as I could but as you know some cats are dry food junkies and it isn't easy trying to get all three just on canned and know it is even harder with my IBD and Allergy Boy...

franksmom · Aug 9, 2013

Hi DonnaJean! Many people actually recommend a limited ingredient wet or a raw food diet for cats with IBD (http://ibdkitties.net/IBDguidelines.html). The vet food formulated for IBD is full or grains which cats have problems digesting and are known to cause inflammation, so that is why when my cat was having terrible stomach issues I switched him to a limited ingredient no grain wet food rather than listen to the vet. Not all IBD cats have trouble digesting protein, like many vets suggest, but you should try feeding IBD cats novel proteins. I did not do the biopsy to definitively show my cat has IBD but he was suffering from chronic vomiting and had an inflamed GI tract- he has made amazing strides on lamb and duck natures variety wet. Since your cat also has not had the biopsy he may not even have IBD so I would do some more research on if the vet food is the best thing to give him and take a look at the ibd kitties website I posted above it has some great information. I understand transitioning dry food junkies my cat would only lick the gravy from wet food and now he is eating 4-6 oz a day. What worked for him was giving him the natures variety pride in lamb and duck. It has a gravy so he was more willing to eat it. I used both freeze dried chicken and dry food (LI natures variety turkey) as toppers and he actually started to eat the wet food. I still put the freeze dried chicken on top but now he eats all the wet food up. It took me months but he is so much happier and healthier.

Some people on this site have had great success with raw, for example Carolina got her IBD cat to have his very first solid poop on raw (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore)

donnajean · Aug 10, 2013

Hello,

We also believe Boo has Allergies, whether to a certain "food" or environmental ....He has been scratching , this started big time a little while before he developed pancreatitis (I know, strange, vet says no correlation to him developing Pancreatitis), however from what I understand from reading, research , Allergies (food) can cause IBD ???

He was put on prescription Z/D Low Allergen which is Hydrolyzed Protein, Grain Free...and may I add VERY expensive for a small bag ($25)..

I also bought the cans, it is called Z/D Ultra Allergen Free, Hydrolyzed Chicken Liver, he would not even attempt to eat it so I am going to return the cans and get credit from my vet.

So, Nature's Pride by Nature's Variety Instinct would be not a go because of the potential allergens like Eggs, etc...

I already have tried before the Instinct grain free moist in Lamb, Turkey, Chicken and Rabbit (canned version of Rabbit source is from China so will not buy again)

Boo would NOT eat any of these.....

I even had Nature's Variety Dry Turkey meal LID he did eat that after his Pancreatitis but had to stop because of finding Undigested Food (throw up) three days in a row... and he also continued to Scratch ALOT !

Believe me I have tried just about every Grain free canned and LID Canned, the ONLY canned he will eat and I have not given since the Pancreatitis is a not so good food Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets.

He really Loves Pure Bites Freeze dried Turkey treats, he would eat the whole bag if I let him ...

So what do you do when your IBD & Allergy Cat is super Picky, you really don't know what he is Allergic to ???

I have already been out in the past two weeks close to $1,000 , The Pancreatitis and other testings, treatment, B-12 Injections, rechecks, back to the vet, X-rays, more blood work ,that I should hear something on today ,and the expensive RX food...

This is totally stressful and I am exhausted from all the worry and trying to understand all this and get him feeling the best he can..

So, any other suggestions, perhaps any supplements, other diets, etc....???

I tried Nature's variety raw in Chicken ,Boo wouldn't eat that, if they had it in Turkey I bet he might.....

Chicken is also a potential Food Allergen, but in this RX food it is Hydrolyzed which somehow makes this OK according to my Vet..

Thanks,

Donna

donnajean · Aug 10, 2013

Franksmom said:
Hi DonnaJean! Many people actually recommend a limited ingredient wet or a raw food diet for cats with IBD (http://ibdkitties.net/IBDguidelines.html). The vet food formulated for IBD is full or grains which cats have problems digesting and are known to cause inflammation, so that is why when my cat was having terrible stomach issues I switched him to a limited ingredient no grain wet food rather than listen to the vet. Not all IBD cats have trouble digesting protein, like many vets suggest, but you should try feeding IBD cats novel proteins. I did not do the biopsy to definitively show my cat has IBD but he was suffering from chronic vomiting and had an inflamed GI tract- he has made amazing strides on lamb and duck natures variety wet. Since your cat also has not had the biopsy he may not even have IBD so I would do some more research on if the vet food is the best thing to give him and take a look at the ibd kitties website I posted above it has some great information. I understand transitioning dry food junkies my cat would only lick the gravy from wet food and now he is eating 4-6 oz a day. What worked for him was giving him the natures variety pride in lamb and duck. It has a gravy so he was more willing to eat it. I used both freeze dried chicken and dry food (LI natures variety turkey) as toppers and he actually started to eat the wet food. I still put the freeze dried chicken on top but now he eats all the wet food up. It took me months but he is so much happier and healthier.

Some people on this site have had great success with raw, for example Carolina got her IBD cat to have his very first solid poop on raw (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore)

Thanks, besides the reply I posted I wanted to add that Boo has had no diarrhea except he had a few Soft stools when he had the Pancreatitis...his stools have always been normal (so far).. where do you get your freeze dried and what is the brand name?? would it hurt to give quite a bit of freeze dried or is that something that should only be given in small amounts as a treat only ???

thedivineoomba · Aug 10, 2013

OK! Thanks for the suggestion - I told my friend I'd watch her dog for the next 10 day - and now I'm dog sitting - so between dog-cat integration (Zero is cat friendly, but the cats don't know that) I haven't been able to post. I called back the vet - and it turns out they did the urinalysis and it turns out that it is phosphourous crystals.

A new employee was a vet tech in a previous life - and had a contact for the HIlls Science Diet Rep - who she trusted immenesly. The rep was honest - she said she was selling a product, and that she truly believed in it. I mentioned I was feeding grain free with high protein (like Wellness). She said it might be the protein causing the problem - Since the crystals have 3 parts - Magnesium, Phosphorous, and Protein. I'm not sure what to think of that. She did say that their is a mostly grain free version that Hill has out (its very new!) and that might be a better choice. Again, I don't know.

Right now, I'm leaning toward a CD dry (I know bad, but the cats like crunchies, but its easy, and when I can't be around to feed them 3 times a day - dry is what it should be), with everything else wet with low phosphorous, magnesium off the site that was suggested, for long term management

Currently, I am going to keep him (and Grendel) entirely on the CD diet until after the vet gives the go ahead with the urine crystals since the CD food dissolves crystals.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

RIght now - Ezra did the in and out of the the litter box twice, with a dime size urine patch - so I just called the vet...

and than they called back. Said it was normal since it was only 48 hours - but will add a pain medication just in case.

I will post back later this weekend and let you know what I am thinking.

franksmom · Aug 10, 2013

DonnaJean said:
Hello,

We also believe Boo has Allergies, whether to a certain "food" or environmental ....He has been scratching , this started big time a little while before he developed pancreatitis (I know, strange, vet says no correlation to him developing Pancreatitis), however from what I understand from reading, research , Allergies (food) can cause IBD ???

He was put on prescription Z/D Low Allergen which is Hydrolyzed Protein, Grain Free...and may I add VERY expensive for a small bag ($25)..

I also bought the cans, it is called Z/D Ultra Allergen Free, Hydrolyzed Chicken Liver, he would not even attempt to eat it so I am going to return the cans and get credit from my vet.

So, Nature's Pride by Nature's Variety Instinct would be not a go because of the potential allergens like Eggs, etc...

I already have tried before the Instinct grain free moist in Lamb, Turkey, Chicken and Rabbit (canned version of Rabbit source is from China so will not buy again)

Boo would NOT eat any of these.....

I even had Nature's Variety Dry Turkey meal LID he did eat that after his Pancreatitis but had to stop because of finding Undigested Food (throw up) three days in a row... and he also continued to Scratch ALOT !

Believe me I have tried just about every Grain free canned and LID Canned, the ONLY canned he will eat and I have not given since the Pancreatitis is a not so good food Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets.

He really Loves Pure Bites Freeze dried Turkey treats, he would eat the whole bag if I let him ...

So what do you do when your IBD & Allergy Cat is super Picky, you really don't know what he is Allergic to ???

I have already been out in the past two weeks close to $1,000 , The Pancreatitis and other testings, treatment, B-12 Injections, rechecks, back to the vet, X-rays, more blood work ,that I should hear something on today ,and the expensive RX food...

This is totally stressful and I am exhausted from all the worry and trying to understand all this and get him feeling the best he can..

So, any other suggestions, perhaps any supplements, other diets, etc....???

I tried Nature's variety raw in Chicken ,Boo wouldn't eat that, if they had it in Turkey I bet he might.....

Chicken is also a potential Food Allergen, but in this RX food it is Hydrolyzed which somehow makes this OK according to my Vet..

Thanks,

Donna

Hi Donna,

It sounds you have been through quite the time with your cats. Every case of IBD is different since you tried novel protein grain free wet and raw I would say to try the rx food, it does work for some cats. I would keep giving your other cat with urinary issues on wet and actually blending it with water into a liquid because of his preference for gravy actually is great for getting moisture into him. I think starting your own thread may be useful so you can get some more suggestions.

donnajean · Aug 10, 2013

Franksmom said:
Hi Donna,

It sounds you have been through quite the time with your cats. Every case of IBD is different since you tried novel protein grain free wet and raw I would say to try the rx food, it does work for some cats. I would keep giving your other cat with urinary issues on wet and actually blending it with water into a liquid because of his preference for gravy actually is great for getting moisture into him. I think starting your own thread may be useful so you can get some more suggestions.

I did start a thread when i joined on IBD and Allergies on Boo but I don't believe there has been any replies..

franksmom · Aug 10, 2013

TheDivineOomba said:
OK! Thanks for the suggestion - I told my friend I'd watch her dog for the next 10 day - and now I'm dog sitting - so between dog-cat integration (Zero is cat friendly, but the cats don't know that) I haven't been able to post. I called back the vet - and it turns out they did the urinalysis and it turns out that it is phosphourous crystals.

A new employee was a vet tech in a previous life - and had a contact for the HIlls Science Diet Rep - who she trusted immenesly. The rep was honest - she said she was selling a product, and that she truly believed in it. I mentioned I was feeding grain free with high protein (like Wellness). She said it might be the protein causing the problem - Since the crystals have 3 parts - Magnesium, Phosphorous, and Protein. I'm not sure what to think of that. She did say that their is a mostly grain free version that Hill has out (its very new!) and that might be a better choice. Again, I don't know.

Right now, I'm leaning toward a CD dry (I know bad, but the cats like crunchies, but its easy, and when I can't be around to feed them 3 times a day - dry is what it should be), with everything else wet with low phosphorous, magnesium off the site that was suggested, for long term management

Currently, I am going to keep him (and Grendel) entirely on the CD diet until after the vet gives the go ahead with the urine crystals since the CD food dissolves crystals.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

RIght now - Ezra did the in and out of the the litter box twice, with a dime size urine patch - so I just called the vet...

and than they called back. Said it was normal since it was only 48 hours - but will add a pain medication just in case.

I will post back later this weekend and let you know what I am thinking.

I would love to get her evidence as to how protein can cause crystals. A high phosphorous diet can so do take a look at the catinfo chart.

franksmom · Aug 10, 2013

DonnaJean said:
I did start a thread when i joined on IBD and Allergies on Boo but I don't believe there has been any replies..

Hi Donna I respond to so many threads so I forgot that this (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262932/cat-with-possible-ibd-allergies) was yours. You have a response from both myself and GoHolistic and you might want to post the further information that you posted on this thread for more advice. We also have a lot of threads on IBD on the site so do take a look around. We have a great discussion going on right now on the topic in this thread and you may want to contribute (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262946/the-difference-between-ibd-and-ibs)

Male neutered cat, diagnosed with crystals in urine

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