IBD kitty

caesarsmom said:

Unfortunately I'm not in the states at the moment, I'm stuck in Sweden where they seem to care more about running tests to make money than to actually help him. I've contacted a few holistic vets nearby, and hopefully they can help and direct me to a nutritionist so I can help him. I believe his problem is caused by diet, I just need to figure out what it is. It might be fat, he's been eating lamb for a few days, I've now switched to venison, hopefully that will make a difference since its a novel protein for him. IBD is a learning curve I just have to be patient and take it one step at a time, and find people who can help me! I genuinely think the vet is going in the wrong direction seeing as he has improved since his diet change, so now it's just a matter of finding the right diet! Keep throwing suggestions my way, I appreciate any advice I can get.
I gotten a 2nd opinion, but I don't think vets are really able to deal IBD, since she basically agreed with the first vet, but was a little more supportive of diet change at least.
Madeleine

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If you're in Sweden, you might want to ask your vet(s) about Entero-Chronic to at least soothe his system while you figure out what's wrong. Apparently that's now the treatment of choice in Europe, rather than corticosteroids.

This vet is talking about IBD in dogs, but gives some more info: IBD Treatment in Dogs

Entero-Chronic restores and supports healthy bowel function in a number of ways. First, it modulates intestinal immune function and contains substances that exert a substantial localized anti-inflammatory effect. According to the manufacturer, a 60% reduction in bowel inflammation is to be expected.

Second, Entero-Chronic actually helps to repair and strengthen the bowel epithelium and mucosal barrier. This is in sharp contrast to many anti-inflammatory drugs that are known to damage the stomach and intestinal linings.

And third, Entero-Chronic contains potent prebiotics that not only stimulate the growth of beneficial bacteria populations, but suppress and bind to pathogenic microorganisms, preventing their adherence to the intestinal lining where they can damage cells and cause inflammation.

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It is available, and its what the vet suggested, but everyone I've talked to has been negative toward this approach, due to his age it's unlikely that its cancer that he has. The vet has is obviously more inclined to do the biopsy to confirm what they believe it is, but has been somewhat supportive of my approach. Make no mistake, if I don't see an improvement then obviously I will have a biopsy done, but since 3 different vets seem to agree that it IBD that he has, they just want to do the biopsy to confirm, I feel that a different approach is warranted. Especially since the place that performs the biopsy seems more money driven than anything else.

In that your cat got better overnight on Ziwipeak, I'd definitely give homemade raw a try. Raw made a huge difference in my IBS kitties.

Sorry. I was out of the country with no internet access and totally missed this thread
I am the "Carolina" mentioned on this thread a few times..... My IBD kitty's name is Bugsy.
My problems with Bugsy started on the day I brought him home - he was my "lemon kitty" - my "Murphy's Law" Kitty. Whatever could possibly go wrong, would. He has IBD, Stomatitis, a weakened immune-system, reactions to every single drug under the sun (a rabies vaccine nearly killed him)..... Bugsy was just a sick little boy.
Since the day I got him in 2008, he never had a solid poop, but things got really bad when he had an UTI after being on dry food for a while and was given Clavamox (an antibiotic) - that started a 14-month daily violent diarrhea "flare" that had no solution .
We tried EVERYTHING. There were SO many tests, drugs, vet and emergency visits, more drugs, soooooo many diets! You name the treatment, we tried. You name the diet, we tried.
We were desperate. I didn't know for how long Bugsy was going to be around like that.
IBD is serious, and untreated it can lead to lymphoma...... not talking about all the complications before that - pancreatitis, hepatic lipidosis, the constant sickness...... It is not a disease you want to just let it "be".
I kept luring at the raw forum here on TCS, but always fought against - I HATED the thought of it. There are threads of mine saying that raw is not for every kitty, that raw is dangerous, that it is loaded with salmonella..... that there are no studies proving anything...... I was COMPLETELY AGAINST raw. I knew, that if Bugsy's immune-system was so weakened, surely raw's uncooked bacterial load would immediately put him in a grave - I mean..... duh! :doh3:
When Bugsy exhausted all his treatment options due to too many drugs affecting his liver, an exploratory surgery was scheduled with my vet.
Here was the thing though: Because of his liver, if IBD, which we already knew he had, we wouldn't be able to treat him anyway...... And there was nothing, nothing that indicated anything else.
So..... I just knew in my heart that I HAD to try raw before putting him through such a huge surgery - if it didn't work we would do the surgery.

We started the transition - I started very slowly - one TSP at a time, mixed with his wet food. Took me 8 days to transition him completely.
On that 8th day, the day he ate his 1st 100% raw meal, that was the first time in HIS LIFE he had a solid poop! And we never looked back!

Bugsy has been healthy ever since. He is 100% off medications - all medications. He was also super-obese from the IBD dry diet, weighing 21lbs, and is now a healthy 14lbs (he is a large breed, Ragdoll).
He is as healthy and happy as he can be.

His vet is astonished at his progress, but he said that MEAT is what cats have to eat, and now he, himself recommends raw for his IBD patients who are having trouble getting better. And he shared with me that his peers are seeing more and more success with raw when it comes to IBD patients - these are VETS.
IMHO, Raw is not for everyone....... when I say that, I mean every pet PARENT - because IMHO, EVERY CAT was made to eat raw - that is their nature. They were not made to shop the isles of a pet store for food..... But it is a diet that needs to be learned about it, and for that we have a great raw forum right here on TCS.
Just wanted to pop in and share how raw has changed my baby's life.....
All the best to your little one ..... Hope he gets all better really quickly!

This was wonderful to read Carolina, thank you. I can say that just putting Caesar on a high quality canned food diet has made him so much better, friends an family don't recongnize him as the same cat. He's gained weight, he's playful, he's stopped vomiting, he's hungry, it's wonderful to see. My ultimate goal is to get both my cats on raw food, since it seems best for him, and she's developing an allergy to canned food. Ultimately, I agree that it's probably the best thing for all cats in general. I just don't feel comfortable doing that until I'm sure I know everything there is to know about it, I want to do this right!
Thank you!

Oh I am SO glad to hear he's doing THAT much better! I'm just beaming for you both, that is awesome!!!!!!!!!!

I feel QUITE safe is speaking for both Carolina and I in saying - we felt the same way at first about feeding raw. It was... exciting but scary. :lol3:

But you know what? When I realized that I don't balance every single meal I eat - I don't even necessarily eat a balance diet over the course of a few days at times - and nutritional deficiencies take time to have an actual health impact - I relaxed. A lot. Do parents take nutritional training courses before feeding their babies? No. We make sure they get a variety of things. And that's the key to feeding raw. Follow the proportions recommended, and provide a variety. That's pretty much the basics!

But since he's doing so well on this new diet, there's no rush. And one last thing to keep in mind - it doesn't even have to be "all or nothing." Some days I eat salad; the next day I may eat pizza. In fact, if you know how much food you're feeding him daily, it's safe to feed up to 15% of his diet "unbalanced." So over the course of a week, typically you can feed three meals of raw without worrying about bones or organs or whatever. Or you can give your kitties some pieces of raw meat as treats. See if they like it, recognize it as food, and if so, what proteins they like, etc.

Of course, with your IBD boy, starting with a really small bit is best anyway.

It's really not that hard, and you can get premixes to add to meat. My cats were on a chicken only raw ground for a year, and frankly I see that as better than being on Hill's prescription canned with no variety (the next option if raw didn't help mine). I've only recently started adding new proteins.

Glad to hear he's better!

jcat said:

Sorry, but that's too general a statement, as it really depends on the cause of the IBD, if it's ever determined. Raw food is high in fat content, and that's contraindicated for some cats and dogs who need a low-fat diet to keep it under control. What helps some cats may really aggravate the disorder in others, so any switch should be discussed with one's vet and a certified nutritionist.

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I am a bit confused about this statement also. This is not a general statement when it comes to IBD, and raw is not high in fat.
Seems to me that Moggly's case is an extreme case (and it appears to me his case is not IBD), and IMHO Moggly's diet would NOT be a healthy diet for the average cat - cats NEED fat - they need their source for fatty acids. In fact, IMHO a

peaches08 said:

It's really not that hard, and you can get premixes to add to meat. My cats were on a chicken only raw ground for a year, and frankly I see that as better than being on Hill's prescription canned with no variety (the next option if raw didn't help mine). I've only recently started adding new proteins.

Glad to hear he's better!

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Although the OP is in Sweden. Don't know if there are vitamin pre-mixes there to balance just meat.

LDG said:

Although the OP is in Sweden. Don't know if there are vitamin pre-mixes there to balance just meat.

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TC Feline has a European connection according to their website.

Really? Cool! Do you have the link? Might want to post it here.

LDG said:

Really? Cool! Do you have the link? Might want to post it here.

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Sure, tcfeline.com (no www) shows connections all over the world. The European connection is www.tatzenladen.de .

Thanks!

That's your opinion Tricia. What I still don't understand is, why the statements and the comparison, when Mogli's extreme case is not IBD to begin with. And second, all cats involved here are under the care of a vet. Like your cat, they have been examined too. No one is basing what is better for the kitty on a website. What we gave you in re. To the fat contents was based in data. :dk:
And last, but not least, I will say it again: Raw is not a high fat diet.
Besides, the OP cat, the cat in question, who actually has IBD, has shown great response to ziwi peak, a food that is quite high in fat. In fact, about twice as high than the RAW diet I feed.
For those who truly have a cat with IBD, raw being the answer is far from being a general statement, and if you had just about lost a cat to it, or lost a cat to it, you would be looking at this differently. As would be your vet.
And just a reminder: the OP cat's problem is vomiting, not diarrhea.

It's also worth mentioning that Dr. Pierson's recipe allows for flexibility in fat content by removing a percentage of skin.

jcat said:

Mogli is in the care of two (holistic) vets and a certified animal nutritionist. Let's just say that I trust their diagnosis, which is based on numerous tests and food trials, much, much more than the website of a vet who's never even heard of him, let alone examined him.

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Of course. But Mogli's issue isn't IBD, it's EHEC and resulting intestinal damage. Carolina wasn't suggesting you follow any information based on Dr. Pierson's website (who, BTW, is a vet that does feline nutritional consulting and helps people who hire her create homemade diets tailored to the medical needs of the cat). I believe the point was information for others reading this thread:

1) a very low fat diet is not appropriate for most cats (and, I add, can actually be dangerous for them), and
2) (again demonstrating) Raw is not by definition high fat.

The issue, I believe, is that for a normal cat - IBD or not - 8% fat is much too low if you're talking about 8% ME vs DMB. But whether we're talking DMB (dry matter basis) or ME (metabolized energy) makes a huge difference, because fat has more than twice the calories of proteins and carbs.

The AAFCO minimum recommendation (for adult cats) is 9% fat DMB, which works out to about 19% fat ME. (Bauer JE. Fatty acid metabolism in domestic cats (Felis catus) and cheetahs (Acinonyx jubatas). Proc Nutr Soc 1997;56:1013-24. PDF: http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...91a.pdf&code=13762aa012cb3e458a9e7b504bdd5319 ).

While I'm sure there are other cats that are as fat sensitive as Mogli, it does not appear to be common.

The NRC (National Research Council) "Nutrient Requirement of Dogs and Cats" (on which the AAFCO recommendations are based) states

"Maximal fat contents of balanced diets for cats may be reasonably high without any known adverse effects (total calories not withstanding). Many feline diets presently being fed contain approximately 50% or more of total energy from fat. Some diets for adult animals that are designed to moderately decrease protein amount contain more than 70% ME total fat. These values are consonant with estimates of fat utilization in this species."


Cats, in fact, relative to other mammals, have a rather high "need" for fat in their diet. Cats are not able to synthesize arachidonic acid (AA) from linoleic acid (LA, an "essential fatty acid for humans) due to a lack of digestive enzymes necessary to do so. They must obtain it preformed from their diet. (Same reason cats can't synthesize EPA from ALA, which is why plant-based omega-3 fats are not overly useful to cats; they need the EPA preformed). This is also discussed in the Bauer paper, though a nice summary (referenced work) is available here: http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml

jcat said:

Yes, he may be an atypical case, but it's not likely that he's the only cat with EHEC-induced intestinal lesions, so general statements that raw is the answer to IBD, without knowing the particulars, are risky.

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But that didn't happen in this thread. The OP's cat has been under vet care, and his condition narrowed down to IBD, though they will not provide a definitive diagnosis without the biopsy. Given that he responded so well to the diet change to ziwipeak, it's quite natural to draw the conclusion that food has been the source of the problem, and novel proteins, untreated proteins, and a food that resembles the macronutrient content of ziwipeak are probably good options.

Vball91 responded by suggesting the OP "consider" it, and said she hoped the OP would be able to work with her vet(s) on the diet.

Finally, the OP's cat presented with vomiting as the major symptom, not diarrhea. In any thread in this health forum, when someone asks for help with diarrhea-related issues, TCS members usually recommend full fecals be done, several times, as a starting point, and that a bland diet (cooked chicken, or perhaps cooked chicken and rice) be utlized. Some cats, like Mogli, are intolerant of chicken (though often that turns out to be how the chicken was fed, and/or how it was processed, not the protein itself). And because people new to the problems of GI issues and parasites/bacteria aren't familiar with the fecal testing process, we usually end up explaining the difference between a fecal float done in-house and lab work sent out, and why, especially when there's diarrhea, it often needs to be sent out potentially numerous times - especially if diet changes (as a result of negative fecals from the labs) still aren't helping.

That, however, is not the case for this poster and her cat.


And as re: IBD, yes, many recommend a raw diet be considered (after all other causes of the diarrhea or vomiting have been ruled out). This, simply because of the sheer volume of cats that have had their symptoms of IBD resolve when switched to a homemade, unprocessed diet. Not everyone has access to a vet that has any clue regarding a "species-appropriate" diet, which is what many IBD kitties need (and is best for cats in general, obviously; the exception being rare medical conditions that aren't IBD); not everyone has access to a nutritionist. And that's where sites like TCS and http://www.ibdkitties.net can help.

jcat said:

In Mogli's case, following Dr. Pierson's recommendations would have led to severe malnutrition and an even higher bacterial load.

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And no one suggested you follow her diet; the topic of this thread is Caesar and his medical issues, not Mogli, who has a completely different set of health problems. And Dr. Pierson's recommendations were not brought up in the form of anyone recommending they be followed by anyone. They were brought up in the context of the discussion of fat, which you brought up because of Mogli's digestive problems, which do not appear to parallel Caeser's in any way, shape or form. :dk:

I'm also not so sure your statement is correct, though debating Mogli's issues as re: raw isn't appropriate in this thread. I do not agree that a raw diet would necessarily lead to a higher bacterial load. That's certainly not a given, especially if probiotics are used in conjunction with the diet, which many raw feeders do.

The issue of malnutrition as re: Dr. Pierson and Mogli are because of Mogli's specific health problems (which, as it turned out, is not IBD), not the diet itself. Just being clear for others reading this thread.

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You guys have been so unbelievably helpful, and its been wonderful reading all your experiences, whether they relate to Caesar or not. We're all in the same boat here, our cats have health problems and we've all found ways to help them. Obviously Caesar has seen a vet, and while they initially seemed to disagree with the way I wanted to handle things, they haven't told me that if we don't do it their way, he will die. Considering in the last 4 weeks, which is when we had to take him to the vet, we have adjusted his diet. No hills, no kibble, nothing but Ziwipeak. In this time, he has gained 1 pound! He still has another 1.1 lbs to go before he is at his ideal weight, but this coupled with energy increase, playfulness, lethargy lifted and his vomiting has almost stopped completely (he hunger vomits if he's really hungry) makes me believe we are absolutely on the right track with him. He gets probiotics 2x a day an slippery elm 2x day (not together) I believe that a raw diet is best for both of my cats, my other cat Katja has been coughing recently, we ran all the test we could at the vets and everything came up clean, so we figured allergies. I finally figured out that its the Ziwipeak lamb she can't eat, so I feel this is just the kick in the pants I need to get going on a raw diet... Excluding lamb. My question is do they get everything they need from a raw diet? Or do I need to add supplements?
Thanks everyone!!

Because I grind mine (including bone) and chunk a good bit of the meat, I add supplements per Dr. Pierson's recipe. To start, you can add up to 15% raw meat to their diet before worrying with supplements. I posted a link to TC Feline's distributor for Europe in this thread if you want to try that route. You cannot give just meat without a calcium source, so consider using bone or egg shell calcium. Check out the raw feeding forum resources thread for links to raw feeding recipes/models.

Good luck and great that you're finding solutions!

caesarsmom said:

I believe that a raw diet is best for both of my cats, my other cat Katja has been coughing recently, we ran all the test we could at the vets and everything came up clean, so we figured allergies. I finally figured out that its the Ziwipeak lamb she can't eat, so I feel this is just the kick in the pants I need to get going on a raw diet... Excluding lamb. My question is do they get everything they need from a raw diet? Or do I need to add supplements?
Thanks everyone!!

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Congrats on that decision!! Yep, I think too..... Raw IMHO is the best diet around..... Specially for a kitty with IBD :nod:
Do they get everything from a raw diet? It depends what do you mean from that question......
A lot of raw feeders who feed the classic frankerprey diet do not supplement. I do.
I chose not to feed bones due to Bugsy's IBD - there are some theories about the digestibility of bones for cats with IBD.... so I chose to stay away from it and feed a "boneless frankerprey" diet.
Also, because of freezing and defrosting the meat both in my house and in transit, I also chose to supplement Taurine - necessary? I don't know. But because a Taurine deficiency can be devastating, I rather be safe than sorry.
Frankerprey diets are based on mimicking their diets on the wild - however, we have to keep in mind we are feeding mass produced, farm raised meats. In farm raised meat, the levels of O6 to O3 are not in the same proportions as in the meats they would hunt - so....... I supplement O3s as well, even though I try my best to feed cage free pasture raised meats. For that, I use Krill oil.
What else? For hairballs, I use egg lecithin and Slippery Elm Bark - those are not considered supplements, but I am going to throw it here.... SEB (Slippery Elm Bark, as you know has great anti-inflammatory properties too ).
And they also get probiotics once a day.
Aside from that, they eat the right proportions of meat, and organs supplemented with egg shells as a source of Calcium.

It sounds complicated, but it is really not :nod: Once you get into a routine it is easy peasy :nod:

I don't know the availability in there, but you might have ground formulas available for you - those are complete and no not need supplementation..... Although I would add the O3.

There is a resources thread here on the raw forum full of information: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

When you are ready you can open a thread on the raw forum asking for questions - we will help you out answering all your questions with your transition, diet and supplement questions, making that easy for you.
Don't be overwhelmed - it will sound like a LOT of information at first.... but I promise - it is not that hard. And we will be here to help you :rub:
Here is the raw forum: http://www.thecatsite.com/f/65/raw-feeding-for-cats