URGENt HELP!!!! Ginny moving kittens.

Please can someone advise me? It's now 4.30am here in the Uk and I had fell asleep on the sofa at around midnight. At 3am I was woke with the sound of mewing and rustling right close to me, I sat up and saw Ginny coming from the birthing area with one if the kittens in her mouth then she darted behind the sofa. On checking the birthing area I could only see 3 kittens, she then came back and grabbed another one. I tried to stop her but was unsuccessful.
(Ginny had been trying to get behind the sofa in the last fortnight, and when I pulled it partial out last week I found a load of ripped up paper which I removed and then proceeded to block both ends of with boxes and pillows to prevent her from getting behind there. The sofa is a large 3 seater and the 2ends are recliners and it is situated against the back wall of the living room.).
I managed to pull the sofa out abit and could see 2 of the kittens amongst some more torn up newspaper( Ginny must of pushed some under the sofa) I got hold of one of the kittens and lifted it out and put it back in the birthing area just as Ginny brought another one behind the sofa. I then decided to wake up hubby who came down and managed to get behind sofa and started lifting the kittens out, we places them on the sofa and had 5 of them but couldn't get the 6th as Ginny had took it under the sofa, we needed more help so I went and got oldest daughter and we reclined the one end and managed to get it out. We then started to put babies back in birthing area but Ginny grabbed 1 and took it back under the sofa, the pet carrier was in the room so we put the other babies in there then got the other one and Ginny into but Ginny picked one up and was pushing against the door trying to get out. So as to not stress them and ourselves we let her out, we then put the box which had been alongside the birthing area and which Ginny had sat in a couple of times, behind the sofa and put the kittens in. Ginny then went into the box and lay down and the babies started suckling. We blocked the gaps up between the bottom of the sofa and the carpet just in case Ginny tried to move them again underneath and thought everything was ok. I went and made some tea and when I got back hubby told me that she had moved 5 of the babies back under the sofa and was moving the last one. We have decided not to try and get them out and just to leave them there but the problem is we can't see them. Hubby and daughter have gone back to bed and as I'm typing this Ginny has come out I've just given her a sachet of food and shes eaten some of it and is now prowling around especially near birthing area and meowing, I can hear the babies mewing and she has just gone back to them.
We are going to get a bigger box tomorrow and cut a hole in it and place it near to the birthing area with the towels and newspapers from the area in it so that hopefully Ginny may move them back.
I'm just concerned that we can't keep an eye on them. We have only handled the kittens to weigh them and to clean the birthing area up. To be honest I'm sat here crying, worrying about them all, I've smoked about 7 cigarettes since 3.30 and don't know what to do. Somebody please give me some advice.

I could never give a mama cat the run of the house for this reason. Some are neurotic about moving them. It's instinctive and you cannot win.

The best thing to do, is to move her into a more controlled environment.

Set up a spare room, or bathroom where there are only choices that you want. Give her several options of different boxes/beds. Close off any areas where she can hide them away.

I always have to pack behind my toilet with paint cans and towels. Otherwise, they all want to give birth there or keep the kittens there.
 

Agree with Levi.  Make of course sure her place IS not stressed, feels safe, etc...

Do you think it could be due to the fact that although we have only minimally handled them, we have been looking at them. We don't have a spare room we can put them into and only have the 1 bathroom. My kitchen/ diner is quite big and we could possibly set up an area in there. Plus my youngest daughter has ordered one of these
Which we were going to use for when the kittens were bigger.
What do you think?

Some looking and a little handling shouldnt be problem. After all, almost all breeders and most rescuers do weigh them everyday from day 1, even - beginning immediately after the birth.

But it must of course be done respectfully, near mom so she sees you and the kitten you are weighting, and do it quickly, at most half a minute per kitten.

So, looking at, and some handling in sensibly manner is seldom a problem. But if she feels crowded, the onlookers comment loudly, etc - yes, she could feel stressed or at least, not comfortable with the situation. Moms are protective, it is a big part of their job.

So how to look, and how many different persons, must be played by the situation.

A little later on, when they are 2+, it will be only good if children are allowed to look on and handle some, as long it is done carefully and respectfully. Good for socializing.

Good luck!

It's possible that having three people looking in on her made Ginny feel that her den was unsafe and contributed to her moving the kittens, but as Levi pointed out it's mostly just instinctual and almost all Queens do it at least once. In the wild, her instincts would prompt her to move her den and move it often to avoid attracting predators. That instinct never fully goes away. 

I totally agree with the other posters that the only solution to this problem is to confine Ginny to one room. You need to block off all the areas in the room that you don't want her to have access to (such as under a bed) and give her one or two nesting options. That way, she can move them as she sees fit but you will always know they are safe. Levi is right that, in a battle of wills against a Queen you will lose every time. You can move them back as much as you want to but she will never "give in." The only solution is to fully take the option away. 

You can make her nests more attractive by making sure they are in a quiet corner and are covered on top. The appeal of behind/under the couch is so she knows they are safe and that no predators can sneak up on her. Try to mimic this as much as you can. 

As for the playpen: these are absolutely amazing for abandoned litters but don't work well for kittens with a Mom. Mainly, because there is no way to keep Mom in there with them (there isn't enough room) other than keeping the top open and, if you keep the top open they will just climb out. Selecting one room to be the kitten room from here on out is your best bet. Not only should you make it ideal for nesting but you should kitten proof it as well so that they are safe once they start exploring. After they are litter boxed trained (usually between 6-8 weeks) then I let them free roam the entire house so that they can get used to all the day to day sights and sounds. But, until then, giving them free reign is going to cause way more problems than it's worth. 

Good luck in selecting your room and in getting Ginny used to the idea! 

It's now 11.20am in the Uk, I stayed on the sofa and after a while Ginny came out and wanted fuss, I went to the toilet and she followed me, she was acting as if she was hungry so I gave her another pouch of food which she ate then went to the litter tray for a wee then went back under the sofa. I managed to get about an hours sleep then youngest daughters boyfriend got up to go to work. He was abit concerned about what had happened but couldn't do much as he had to leave. An hour later eldest daughter and hubby got up and Ginny came out wanting fuss, whenever Ginny hears hubby moving downstairs or when he came home from work she knew he would give her some treats. This time he didn't. I was worried about the kittens so said to hubby and daughter I would take Ginny out of the room and could one of them just check the kittens were ok. Daughter got over the sofa and checked. All 6 kittens were fine and moving about under my end of the sofa, so they had moved from the far end where Ginny had originally put them. Brought Ginny back in, she went and had a drink of goats milk then went back underneath. She's been there a couple of hours now, the kittens occasionally have a quiet mew but nothing that sounds distressed. Ginny has a couple of times been heard to make like a guttural sound when with the kittens, I thought that kittens couldn't hear until their ears came up around the same time as their eyes opened.

Mamabirdy, when our Whisper had her kittens, she moved them one time. Like others have posted, it's instinct more than anything. Whisper had her litter in a clothesbasket in our bedroom. The linens had fluids on them from birthing and, evidently, she felt it safer to move her gang under a bureau in the bedroom. We let the kittens under there for a day or two. We changed the linens in the clothesbasket so everything was fresh for her. Then we brought each kitten out from under the bureau and placed them back into the basket. Whisper watched us carefully; when we were done, she hopped in the clothesbasket and began to nurse. She never moved the kittens after that.

I'm not sure how old your daughters are or if you have younger children, but mama cats do tend to be nervous with their newborns, especially when there are younger children in the house. There were three people in our house when Whisper had that litter and our son was a young teenager. It could just be the amount of people in your house making the cat a bit nervous. But I do think it's instinct on the mother's part to put her kittens in a safer place.

Whisper and her kittens seemed to be very happy in the clothesbasket back in the bedroom. There were lots of comfy linens in the basket and she would hop in, nurse her babies, and then leave again.

mamabirdy said:

 Ginny has a couple of times been heard to make like a guttural sound when with the kittens, I thought that kittens couldn't hear until their ears came up around the same time as their eyes opened.

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That guttural sound is surely low frequency, so they feel it even with ears closed.  Which is surely why moms communications is with such sounds.  

l agree with the others who said to confine her to her own room/space. 

Not to alarm you, but we have one of those sofas that recline on both ends, and our cats get up into the workings of it - in the moving frame, in the behind the back cushions, up under the seating area. They could easily get hurt in there (so we humans are banned off it, and it never gets reclined).

Once the kittens get older, they could be much more difficult to find (and rescue) if they have access to the sofa.

Almost 6.30 here, Ginny just come out from under the sofa and eat some wet food then went back in. We had set up a larger box behind the bar with the original smaller box inside it, next to the shelf where she gave birth and when she came out earlier, we enticed her into the box with treats and she ate them and jumped back out. We did put a couple of the kittens in the box but she took them back out. So now we are just going to leave them there for a couple of days and only check if we think it's necessary.
I know that a lot of you have said about isolating her in a room but we just don't have a spare room, thank you all for your advice.

I'd keep her in my bedroom if I had no other option. I'd just make sure it's kitten proof and block off any small spaces. 

I understand not having an extra room as I live in just a one bedroom apartment, but I would really encourage you to try and find some other solution than letting them stay behind the couch. As Andrya pointed out this is a very dangerous area for her to be, and I have heard of cats ripping out the lining and pushing their kittens up into the couch. There are just too many dangers for her to keep them here. 

I keep all my fosters in my bedroom. I blocked off under the bed and under the dresser with plywood (super cheap and easy to cut yourself to fit) and bought an extra large dog kennel that I use as a nest. It's large enough to hold her litterbox, food and water dishes, and her birthing box. During the day I leave the door to the cage open so that Mom can come out and stretch her legs, but at night I lock the door so that I know everyone is safe. I also cover the whole thing with a sheet and I've had great success with it. The Queens seem to enjoy having all their stuff if one area, and like how covered and private it is. No, most don't like being locked in for the night but it's better than the alternative. 

So, maybe something like this is the route you need to go. It's okay if she's sharing the room with her humans. You just want to make it so it's safe for her and the kittens. And, behind the couch just isn't safe. I know you can think of something better for her! 

Hello folks, 4.20 am here. Ginny and kittens are doing fine, eldest daughter Got behind sofa last night for a couple of minutes and they were all ok. We are checking a couple of times a day just by looking and youngest daughter is going to by a webcam today and set that up. One of the reasons we can't set up an area in the bedrooms is that we only live in a small house, the biggest room is the living room that is 14ft by 12ft. Ginny hasn't been upstairs so to suggest using a bedroom would be like strange ground to her, hopefully by us letting her keep the babies under the sofa and not trying to move them, she will do this herself into the box we have set up.for those wondering, I have 2 daughters, one is 29 and the other 25 and there are no young children in the house.

Hi folks,
Good news the kittens are thriving well, and Ginny hasn't tried moving them again. I got anxious as I hadn't seen them (I can't climb over the back of the sofa due to my arm) hubby and daughters had checked yesterday morning and last night youngest filmed them briefly so I saw them and they look great. We are just leaving her to it now, then at weekend gonna trying weighing them.

Morning folks, kitty's are still doing well, haven't touched or moved them but youngest daughter filmed them again yesterday and they look good, Ginny keeps coming out and is eating well and sometimes she stays out and has a bit of fuss.

Well folks, we now have the camera set up and we can watch Ginny and the babies when ever we want without disturbing them. I've just spent the last 15 mins pmsl at their antics as they try to get at Ginny's teats. Falling over each other and rolling off when they are not balanced right. My eldest went behind the sofa earlier for the first time for a couple of days and said that they appear to have put on a good amount of weight. I just can't wait to see them in the flesh.

Evening folks, babies look to be doing fine, have been in hysterics watching them for the last 24 hours feel so much happier now. Just can't wait to see them in the flesh again.
Haven't weighed them since Sunday, do you think it would be safe to fetch them out and weigh them over the weekend? What are the chances of Ginny moving them again? Has anyone experienced this?

mamabirdy said:

Evening folks, babies look to be doing fine, have been in hysterics watching them for the last 24 hours feel so much happier now. Just can't wait to see them in the flesh again.
Haven't weighed them since Sunday, do you think it would be safe to fetch them out and weigh them over the weekend? What are the chances of Ginny moving them again? Has anyone experienced this?

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It's possible that she will move them again whether you handle them or not. Some Queens just like to den move and do it often. There is really no way to know what Ginny will do. 

I'm going to say it once more and then I'll drop the subject: you really, really, REALLY need to move them from behind the couch. Thankfully they seem okay but monitoring their weight every day is the only way to know for sure and that hasn't been happening. 

Also, most Queens and kittens continue to using their nesting area until the kittens are re-homed. It's nice for both to have a "home base" to check in at. What's going to happen when you have a bunch of rambunctious, curious, 8 week old kittens all trying to get behind the couch? It's a very dangerous place for them to be. Not only are they at risk of getting hurt coming and going, but their curiosity is going to encourage them to dig and explore at the couch. What if they tear a hole in the bottom and all climb up in there? This is really an area that needs to be blocked off completely. 

You also want to make sure they are somewhere that you can get to them so that you can start the handling and socialization process. Around 3 weeks is when they really need a lot of hands on time as this is how they get used to humans. If they are just behind the couch all the time they are going to be way more likely to develop phobias. If, anytime there is a new, scary noise they can retreat where no one can get to them they aren't going to be well socialized and will more likely be skittish cats. 

Of course Ginny likes it back there- what cat wouldn't? It's dark and covered and safe. But, just because she likes it doesn't mean it's the best place for her to be. Now that you haven't been handling them she is way more likely to freak out when you do. And, because of the location, there is no way to only handle them in front of her. If you take one out she has to choose between trying to save that one or protecting the rest of them. And, this is going to cause her an extreme amount of stress. 

So, it doesn't matter what alternative you come up with you just need to try and come up with something. I think you are setting yourself up for a lot more problems in the future than you realize. 

 l agree with the previous post completely.

l'm not sure if your couch's exterior is like mine, with the velcro flaps in back to allow access to the workings, but it is very easy access for the cats to get inside. And they will.

Agree also the kitties should be weighed and handled daily for their sake, yours, future owners' and the mother cat's.

Sending best wishes