Moistening Dry Food?

mschauer · Dec 14, 2012

LDG said:
mschauer said:

I think you misunderstood. The claim not supported by fact that I was referring to is the one in the link Wilson refers to and is a claim made about bloating, not any claim made about bacteria.

Click to expand...

????

No one in this thread has provided any definitive source of information - about bacteria or bloat.

??? That bacteria exists in dry foods has been well established through numerous pet food recalls and that bacteria will proliferate in water is also a well established fact. That cannot be said for the claims made in the link.

I'm confused. Is someone now claiming that there is no bacteria in dry foods????

socksy · Dec 14, 2012

I think we all agree that the bacteria will reproduce more quickly in water, but how quickly is very important. It probably takes at least an hour for the difference in bacteria to be significantly different from dry kibble. If that's true, then the risk isn't greater if the food is fed right away. I'd like to know how quickly these bacteria reproduce. You could test this by culturing a sample at set time intervals and see how quickly the plate count increases. A culture of the un-moistened food would also be done as a control. Preferably, this would be repeated several times to give more accurate results.

ETA: A culture of wet food and raw done at the same time would also be very interesting.

This would be pretty easy. In fact, I might do it. I'd have to know what bacteria to look for, though, so I can use the right agar and incubation temperature.

ldg · Dec 14, 2012

mschauer said:
I'm confused. Is someone now claiming that there is no bacteria in dry foods????

Not to my knowledge. I guess I'm just confused about your comment, and I remain confused and don't understand the question, the problem, or the exchange currently happening. :dk:

Wlson provided a link that isn't any kind of definitive resource. We agree on that.

Pet food recalls establish that there can be dangerous levels of bacteria or mycotoxins in pet foods, no question.

But what are the bacteria or mycotoxins in pet food that can make cats sick if the kibble is moistened? Is it alfatoxin, vomitoxin, salmonella and E. coli, the same things that can result in recall - just a lower doses? Undiagnosed/detected?

The reports on mycotoxins clearly establish there are many types potentially in the kibble if grain based... anyone have similar studies or reports on bacteria? Or we assume the problem is only the bacteria that have been in food subject to recalls, e.g. salmonella and E. coli? Because there are numerous different strains of each (I'm pretty sure), and with varying levels of impact on health.... :dk:

socksy · Dec 14, 2012

Most coliforms (E coli is a coliform) don't cause illness, but their presence is a sign that the sample is contaminated. Pet food companies do have to test for coliforms, so recalls are probably a result of sloppy quality assurance or apathy (as in, the test for coliforms was positive - or above the acceptable limit - and someone made the decision to sell the product anyway). Plating for coliforms is definitely a good way to test the safety of food. It's really easy - I do it all the time.

Actually, you could just plate in "nutrient agar" or on SPC films (specific plate count) or another test that is just for bacteria in general, and is not very specific. I suppose the question here isn't what bacteria (or other pathogens) are present on the kibble, but what affect does adding water have to the amount of bacteria. So really, a very broad test that included a variety of bacteria would suit the purpose. Test at time intervals and graph the relationship between bacteria count and time left out, then determine at which point the count becomes (statistically) significantly different from the count of non-moistened kibble, and that will give you a time frame in which you can feed moistened kibble and not have it be any more risky than dry kibble would normally be.

ETA: I e-know someone who is a lab tech at a pet food processing plant. I should ask what they use.

stealthkitty · Dec 14, 2012

Wilson,

I apologize if I came across as attacking; it wasn't my intent at all. I directed my question to you because I thought you were familiar with the information in the link you posted; that maybe it was a site you particularly like and that that's why you recommended it and that perhaps you knew more about it than I do. My questions were sincere, and since the original topic had to do with potential risks/benefits of moistening dry food, I thought those questions would help us to get to the bottom of it. Sometimes we have to ask the hard questions to get to the truth of the matter; it's nothing personal.

mschauer · Dec 15, 2012

LDG said:
Pet food recalls establish that there can be dangerous levels of bacteria or mycotoxins in pet foods, no question.

But what are the bacteria or mycotoxins in pet food that can make cats sick if the kibble is moistened? Is it alfatoxin, vomitoxin, salmonella and E. coli, the same things that can result in recall - just a lower doses? Undiagnosed/detected?

The reports on mycotoxins clearly establish there are many types potentially in the kibble if grain based... anyone have similar studies or reports on bacteria? Or we assume the problem is only the bacteria that have been in food subject to recalls, e.g. salmonella and E. coli? Because there are numerous different strains of each (I'm pretty sure), and with varying levels of impact on health....

I guess I consider the issue to be entirely what happens when moisture is added. I don't think there is any question that various bacteria and fungi (which produce toxins like alfatoxin and vomitoxin) may be present and may sicken an animal whether water is added or not. For me the question is whether it is known that adding water to food will make a cat sick if water is added where the cat wouldn't have been make sick without the water added.

mschauer · Dec 15, 2012

socksy said:
I think we all agree that the bacteria will reproduce more quickly in water, but how quickly is very important. It probably takes at least an hour for the difference in bacteria to be significantly different from dry kibble. If that's true, then the risk isn't greater if the food is fed right away. I'd like to know how quickly these bacteria reproduce. You could test this by culturing a sample at set time intervals and see how quickly the plate count increases. A culture of the un-moistened food would also be done as a control. Preferably, this would be repeated several times to give more accurate results.

I don't think how quickly the bacteria multiply is the only important question. There is also the question of how much the bacteria has to grow to become a threat to health.

mschauer · Dec 15, 2012

socksy said:
Science has very rigorous standards and I think people often mistake the scientific process of scrutiny as being attacking or confrontational. Just to get one single journal article published requires countless, ruthless reviews. Not sure if you've ever seen someone defend their thesis for a Master's or PhD, but that can be pretty brutal. That's the process, though. It's absolutely necessary to question what people say and point out logic flaws. Even knowledgeable, well-respected people with loads of credentials and years of research under their belt will get things wrong or come to erroneous conclusions. On any given topic there are usually a great number of these experts who disagree with each other. With this in mind, it makes no sense to trust someone simply because they know or write a lot about cats, or because you like them. In fact, if you can only find it in yourself to disagree with people you don't like, then you're not capable of making logical decisions.

Excellent post. I can't tell you how many times I seen someone in these forums and others take what someone posts as being fact and acting on it despite there being no reason what so ever to do so except that someone has posted it. The internet is a very efficient and effective way to communicate valuable information. It is also a very efficient and effective way to spread misinformation.

just mike · Dec 15, 2012

LDG said:
Wilson, you might have missed the point about not adding water to kibble and leaving it out? If you're going to add water to kibble, the cat needs to eat it within a short period of time, or it becomes bacteria soup.
Here is an interview with Donald Strombeck conducted by BARK magazine in 2010, discussing the issue of pet food recalls (esp as re the major recall of 2008) and issues of problems within the pet food industry. Donald Srombeck is a small animal vet specialist in nutrition and gastroenterology that practiced and taught at UC Davis for 20 years. http://www.thebark.com/content/donald-r-strombeck-talks-dog-nutrition-and-pet-food-recalls
This is why it is recommended to not moisten dry food. The caveat is that if you must feed kibble, it will most likely not harm your cat IF the kibble is moistened and eaten within a very short period of time, so the bacteria doesn't have time to multiply.
This also emphasizes why it's best to try to find a grain-free food (whether kibble or canned), even better, something low carb (though grain free, low carb kibble is expensive, and there are only a couple of them). (Grain free, unfortunately, is not synonymous with low carb).

socksy · Dec 16, 2012

mschauer said:
I don't think how quickly the bacteria multiply is the only important question. There is also the question of how much the bacteria has to grow to become a threat to health.

Yeah, that's true. That would have to be determined in some other way. I'm not really sure how... but we could at least determine at what point the moistened dry food had significantly more bacteria, and that's the point at which the risk would change. Up until that point, we could assume that the risk is no greater than it would be for ordinary dry food. Whether the risk itself was significant after the bacteria became more numerous would be a different matter.

meeepcosy · Dec 19, 2012

All science aside... I can't see the problem. Sometimes (albeit not often) I wet my kitty's kibble with some hot water to make a bit of sauce. Mostly, she ignores the kibble and gulps up the sauce haha! I don't leave it out for long, and no harm is done. I get the stuff you guys said about bacteria and such and such, but does it really breed MORE bacteria than wet food left out for long? What I'm trying to say is, whether wet food or dry, each has its vices (admittedly, wet has less vices than dry, but still). Kibble is still better than no food at all, right?

Willowy · Dec 19, 2012

I'm pretty sure Best Friends sanctuary feeds their cats a gloppy mixture of canned, kibble, and water. And, well, anyone feeding 600 cats every day oughta know!

I can't find specifics on their website about exactly what/how they feed the cats, but from watching videos of food prep, that's what it looks like. Their website says they go through 1520 cans (doesn't say what size cans) and 390 pounds of cat kibble per week, so if that's 5.5-ounce cans that's approximately 60/40 canned/dry. . .if that's 13-ounce cans the canned ratio is considerably higher than that, obviously. But mixing canned with dry and then adding water seems like a good way to feed a lot of cats economically. . .I might try it. It would be harder with one cat, I think, since the amounts are so small for each meal.

stealthkitty · Dec 19, 2012

Once you really start to get into the science of it, you're going to need to conduct some very good studies to come up with solid answers. And that's the problem--it's not likely that any of us would be able to conduct the type of in-depth study we're talking about. It seems the best we can go on is anecdotal evidence, which all seems to say that moistening dry food should not be a problem as long as it's eaten immediately. There's even this paragraph on Dr. Pierson's website:

Speaking of texture, a common question is "can I just soak the dry food in water?" I hedge more than just a bit at this question. Dry food often has a very high bacterial content. Mold is also often found in dry food. Both organisms flourish in moist environments. There have been many deaths of dogs and cats secondary to eating mold mycotoxins, vomitoxins and aflatoxins which often contaminate the grains found in dry food. If you want to try the trick of wetting down the dry food to alter the texture, please leave it out for only 20-30 minutes then discard it.

It seems to come down to this: How much risk are you willing to accept in order to provide a better diet for your cat? It's the same question that people who switch to raw face (and people who feed only kibble for the "convenience" should be asking themselves the same question since kibble is hardly risk-free). Without studies, the best way to go is to educate yourself about potential risks and ways to minimize them, then make your decision and proceed with eyes open.

ldg · Dec 19, 2012

Excellent post, StealthKitty. I'd just want to add, if adding water to kibble, best done with grain free to help minimize the risks.

..Though if feeding kibble at all, dry or wet, feeding grain free should help reduce the mold/bacteria risk, at least as I understand it.

minka · Dec 24, 2012

Okay... I'm just going to ignore all the bickering and say that, as long as your cat eats the dampened kibble within, say 20 minutes, yes it is perfectly fine to do so.

stealthkitty · Dec 24, 2012

... I don't think any of us were bickering...

Just having a lively discussion about how to get an accurate answer the OP's question.

I tend to agree with your answer. As long as the food is eaten quickly, it's unlikely to cause a problem.

minka · Dec 24, 2012

I don't think you came until this page though. Page 1 is scary.

stealthkitty · Dec 24, 2012

Ah, yes. I was there for that, actually.

I had forgotten about the "discussion" that ensued the OP's straightforward question.

But I think we got it all sorted out in the end.

duckdodgers · Dec 24, 2012

Minka said:
Okay... I'm just going to ignore all the bickering and say that, as long as your cat eats the dampened kibble within, say 20 minutes, yes it is perfectly fine to do so.

This is pretty much the conclusion that I came to after everything

otto · Dec 24, 2012

Still though, adding water to kibble will not add enough moisture to mimic a canned or raw diet.

Moistening Dry Food?

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