help me further balance...

So far the  boys are doing great, I think, on the raw. They've been eating chicken breast, chicken thighs, and beef. I have some turkey in the freezer to introduce next.  They get the calcium  (per ounce)and the probiotics (daily).  They also get the freeze dried liver as a snack every day. I've replaced their pounce treat with the liver. They LOVE it. 

I know the calcium is taking care of the bone portion I'm supposed to feed.  The liver is taking care of the secreting organ, I think; although, I'm unsure if the treat sizes are 'enough' on a daily basis. They aren't a standard size and kind of small, so I'm wondering about that.  I'm just wondering if I'm missing anything else they need.

I've also given them some pumpkin the last two days - just about a teaspoon a day just for kicks.

Anything else I have to consider that I'm missing?  I've been reading other posts to see if I can pick info. up but I keep confusing myself by doing that.

Well, Carolina and I ran through the numbers on the freeze dried liver the other night. You can definitely feed more without worrying about Vitamin A toxicity. If you want to give them 2-3 treats daily, it's not going to hurt. In fact, the prey model raw guidelines are 80% meat / 10% bone / 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ. But as I've discussed in other threads, most commercial raw foods provide only liver, just in a greater quantity than 5% (and up to 20%). So upping the liver to that 10% equivalent (2-3 pieces a day) is probably a good idea.

Are you giving them raw egg yolk and/or sardines? Once or twice a week? That's a good idea.

I'm giving my cats either 500mg of salmon oil (Pure Alaska Omega), or 500mg of krill oil (NOW Neptune softgel) daily. I can't afford to give all 8 the krill oil supplement daily. But four of them get it - they don't like it squished on their food (other than Chumley, who likes everything :lol3: ), so I just pill them with it. :dk: The others like the salmon oil, so I just squeeze it out of the capsule onto the food.

....and some of us provide a taurine supplement. I split a 1,000mg capsule between all 8 cats every other day. Carolina uses more - I don't remember how much.

LDG said:

Well, Carolina and I ran through the numbers on the freeze dried liver the other night. You can definitely feed more without worrying about Vitamin A toxicity. If you want to give them 2-3 treats daily, it's not going to hurt. In fact, the prey model raw guidelines are 80% meat / 10% bone / 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ. But as I've discussed in other threads, most commercial raw foods provide only liver, just in a greater quantity than 5% (and up to 20%). So upping the liver to that 10% equivalent (2-3 pieces a day) is probably a good idea.
Are you giving them raw egg yolk and/or sardines? Once or twice a week? That's a good idea.
I'm giving my cats either 500mg of salmon oil (Pure Alaska Omega), or 500mg of krill oil (NOW Neptune softgel) daily. I can't afford to give all 8 the krill oil supplement daily. But four of them get it - they don't like it squished on their food (other than Chumley, who likes everything :lol3: ), so I just pill them with it. :dk: The others like the salmon oil, so I just squeeze it out of the capsule onto the food.
....and some of us provide a taurine supplement. I split a 1,000mg capsule between all 8 cats every other day. Carolina uses more - I don't remember how much.

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Laurie, correct me if I am wrong - each of those treats are the equivalent to 1oz of fresh liver, right?
I think that 3pcs a day might be too much........ 2 is probably good, since the kitty is not getting any other organ..... But 3 might be pushing - that's 3 oz of organs a day....
The great thing about, which made me feel REALLY good, is that the nutritional value - all the vitamins, amino-acids, etc... they are not compromised - I was concerned about that since Etta Says is cooked.... so... great to actually see it side by side that nothing was really lost :bigthumb:

Taurine I am probably overdoing :anon:
I give 1/16tsp per meal, which is 125mg - so 375mg a day per kitty, unless they are eating hearts, which I don't bother adding, as it is already packed with Taurine. They eat hearts at least 4 times a week :nod:

Yep, those little Etta Says cubes ranged, but were GENERALLY around 0.25 ounces; which based on the information on the Stewart's Pro-treat package ratio of freeze-dried weight to weight prior to freeze-drying means they're equivalent to about ounce ounce of raw liver. (And using raw liver, I can attest that it has a LOT of moisture in it. :lol3: ). So yes, one a day is FINE.

But... given that we also figured that based on the AAFCO "complete and balanced" upper limit of Vitamin A, you could feed up to 197 pieces of the stuff (I don't remember the exact number, but it was something ridiculous like that) before facing Vitamin A toxicity, if they like it, 2-3 pieces isn't going to hurt. :lol3:

Of course, that IS the chicken liver. The numbers would be different for different livers, and we know turkey liver has a LOT more vitamin A in it that chicken liver. :nod:

LDG said:

Yep, those little Etta Says cubes ranged, but were GENERALLY around 0.25 ounces; which based on the information on the Stewart's Pro-treat package ratio of freeze-dried weight to weight prior to freeze-drying means they're equivalent to about ounce ounce of raw liver. (And using raw liver, I can attest that it has a LOT of moisture in it. :lol3: ). So yes, one a day is FINE.
But... given that we also figured that based on the AAFCO "complete and balanced" upper limit of Vitamin A, you could feed up to 197 pieces of the stuff (I don't remember the exact number, but it was something ridiculous like that) before facing Vitamin A toxicity, if they like it, 2-3 pieces isn't going to hurt. :lol3:
Of course, that IS the chicken liver. The numbers would be different for different livers, and we know turkey liver has a LOT more vitamin A in it that chicken liver. :nod:

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ok........
Except.... I am totally confused now :lol3:
Here are the notes I have from FB:



0.3g or 0.02oz
OK - so let's say 0.25g on average. - not 0.25oz
So, how much is that in fresh liver?
I am supposed to feed 0.225oz/day, or 1.575oz per week, if I feed 5% liver..... Since I am not feeding any other organ, I guess I can double that......

Geez, if this isn't one of those "everything happens for a reason" thingies, I don't know what is. Wolcar, if you hadn't asked this question, I never would have realized my brain didn't register GRAMS when Carolina and I were chatting!

Ok. 0.25g per piece on average. If 3oz freeze dried is 12oz before freeze drying, then 0.25g (one piece) is ONE GRAM equivalent. There are 28.35 grams to an ounce. That means we need about 28 pieces to be feeding an ounce equivalent.

So Carolina, if you should be feeding 0.225 oz per day, that's 6.37875 treats per day. Round down to 6 or round up to 7.

...and since if we were feeding fresh liver, that means we'd serve less meat, I think the calories in that amount of liver need to be accounted for if we don't want our kitties to gain weight. :dk:

I'm feeding (mostly) 1.4 oz meals, and twice a week, that's fed as 0.7 oz liver and 0.7 oz of meat. So I need to give Shelly... um... 1.4oz x 28.35g per oz is about 40g. So about 40 pieces per week... so roughly 6 pieces per day.

LDG said:

Geez, if this isn't one of those "everything happens for a reason" thingies, I don't know what is. Wolcar, if you hadn't asked this question, I never would have realized my brain didn't register GRAMS when Carolina and I were chatting!
Ok. 0.25g per piece on average. If 3oz freeze dried is 12oz before freeze drying, then 0.25g (one piece) is ONE GRAM equivalent. There are 28.35 grams to an ounce. That means we need about 28 pieces to be feeding an ounce equivalent.
So Carolina, if you should be feeding 0.225 oz per day, that's 6.37875 treats per day. Round down to 6 or round up to 7.
...and since if we were feeding fresh liver, that means we'd serve less meat, I think the calories in that amount of liver need to be accounted for if we don't want our kitties to gain weight. :dk:
I'm feeding (mostly) 1.4 oz meals, and twice a week, that's fed as 0.7 oz liver and 0.7 oz of meat. So I need to give Shelly... um... 1.4oz x 28.35g per oz is about 40g. So about 40 pieces per week... so roughly 6 pieces per day.

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Holly Molly I better get a bigger bag! :lol3:
Auntil Laurie, I think you just made BEST FRIENDS with Bugsy and Lucky

Thanks for the help here.  The FD liver I got them isn't in consistent sizes. They are very small, actual treat sizes, some smaller than others.  I'm going to have to randomly weigh some and figure it out.  I don't think they're getting enough.

I do have the taurine on order. I do also give one egg yolk per week (half egg yolk 2x/week) and sardines once a week (2 sardines as a replacement meal).

So, if I continue to do this then my boys will be pretty much balanced? I am still adding meats. It's a slow process on my part.  I just don't want to get involved with hearts and organs and whatnot and just want to make sure they are getting what they need (meat,  bones, organs, etc).  I will have to figure out this liver thing.  My boys would love to get more liver, so if I'm not feeding them enough they are going to be so happy.

My Ulysses hasn't shifted any more weight but the he seems much more friskier.  During play the other day he left the ground about 3 inches going after the toy.  He's usually just a lazy bugger and just swats while he lays on his back.  So I'm digging the changes so far with the raw diet.  Just need Ulysses to continue to lose a bit of weight.

I contacted Etta Says asking how much liver is in a cube, and will let you guys know.
I don't give any sardines to mine, but I do give 500mg of Krill Oil a day....

:lol3: Mine will be happy with additional liver too.

Thanks Carolina - that's a good idea. :nod:

Wolcar? The only way you could improve the diet is to

a) feed real bone instead of a supplement (and I'm not convinced there's enough difference between bones they have to crunch vs. NOW MCHA other than dental benefit to have a nutritional impact - MCHA IS real bone, just freeze dried);

b) use "live" liver instead of FD liver, and another organ, like kidney. So..... just see how the meat handling goes over time, and maybe you'll get to the point you want to tackle it. Because a couple of my kitties really enjoy the kidney, and two LOVE LOVE LOVE real liver;

c) include more proteins - which you're working on.

Apart from that... if you find a way to incorporate hearts or gizzards.... gizzards are good for the chewing since you're not feeding real bone, and hearts are packed with nutrition (and are high in taurine). You MAY want to consider ordering duck hearts and/or turkey thigh cubes from Hare Today at some point. They also have venison cubes, which for you would be great as they're good to go as is. :nod:

The slow introductions to the new proteins is good. :nod: You might also want to consider pork as a new protein at some point in the future (just check the sodium level per serving - it should be around 60mg, not over 100mg. Most pork is "enhanced" with a saline solution, which provides WAY too much salt for the cats).

But if you're balancing the meat with calcium, providing them liver, and an omega 3 supplement - AND feeding them egg yolks, with a nice rotation of proteins - that's what they need.

wolcar said:

Thanks for the help here.  The FD liver I got them isn't in consistent sizes. They are very small, actual treat sizes, some smaller than others.  I'm going to have to randomly weigh some and figure it out.  I don't think they're getting enough.

Click to expand...

You  might find this useful (post #6):

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

mschauer said:

You  might find this useful (post #6):

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

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So, Etta Says, which has 33.19% Dry matter for Cooked Liver, and 99% Dry Matter for Etta Says:
5.26oz of FD Etta Says - 1lb of Cooked Liver if I followed that formula.

0.33oz of Etta Says = 1oz of cooked Liver...

Calculating.......... LOL

So:
Etta says Cube:
0.3g or 0.02oz
So, how much is that in fresh liver?
I am supposed to feed 0.225oz/day, or 1.575oz per week
Which means..... I need to feed:
0.519oz of Etta Says per WEEK, or 0.0745/ Day...... Which equals........ 3.71 cubes per day

mschauer said:

You  might find this useful (post #6):

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh

Click to expand...

Thank you.  I'm going to have to look at this when my brain is fresh.

So, where are the gizzards in the meat section? Will it just be called 'gizzards' or does it have some cryptic name like 'london broil?' 

Also, the calcium supplement.  Do any of you just open all of the capsules into a container and dish it out from there? I'd almost prefer to sit and open the capsules at one time and then just measure it out that way. What are your thoughts on that?

Carolina said:

So, Etta Says, which has 33.19% Dry matter for Cooked Liver, and 99% Dry Matter for Etta Says:
5.26oz of FD Etta Says - 1lb of Cooked Liver if I followed that formula.
0.33oz of Etta Says = 1oz of cooked Liver...
Calculating.......... LOL
So:
Etta says Cube:
0.3g or 0.02oz
So, how much is that in fresh liver?
I am supposed to feed 0.225oz/day, or 1.575oz per week
Which means..... I need to feed:
0.519oz of Etta Says per WEEK, or 0.0745/ Day...... Which equals........ 3.71 cubes per day

Click to expand...

I'm supposed to feed .225oz/day as well.  I feed 4.5oz/day. Does that mean I should decrease the meat by .225oz/day because of the liver?

I guess I should first figure out how much liver I'm giving them. UGH, at least, for now, they are getting the liver.  My grandmother used to order liver from Perkins when I took her out to dinner. After reading some of these posts about meats and livers and whatnot, I'm wondering what type of liver she was eating.

wolcar said:

So, where are the gizzards in the meat section? Will it just be called 'gizzards' or does it have some cryptic name like 'london broil?'  :scratch:

Also, the calcium supplement.  Do any of you just open all of the capsules into a container and dish it out from there? I'd almost prefer to sit and open the capsules at one time and then just measure it out that way. What are your thoughts on that?

Click to expand...

They are called chicken gizzards :lol3:
As for the Calcium, I'll leave that one to Laurie.... I use Eggshells.....

LDG said:

Mine will be happy with additional liver too.
Thanks Carolina - that's a good idea.

Wolcar? The only way you could improve the diet is to
a) feed real bone instead of a supplement (and I'm not convinced there's enough difference between bones they have to crunch vs. NOW MCHA other than dental benefit to have a nutritional impact - MCHA IS real bone, just freeze dried);
b) use "live" liver instead of FD liver, and another organ, like kidney. So..... just see how the meat handling goes over time, and maybe you'll get to the point you want to tackle it. Because a couple of my kitties really enjoy the kidney, and two LOVE LOVE LOVE real liver;
c) include more proteins - which you're working on.
Apart from that... if you find a way to incorporate hearts or gizzards.... gizzards are good for the chewing since you're not feeding real bone, and hearts are packed with nutrition (and are high in taurine). You MAY want to consider ordering duck hearts and/or turkey thigh cubes from Hare Today at some point. They also have venison cubes, which for you would be great as they're good to go as is.

The slow introductions to the new proteins is good.

You might also want to consider pork as a new protein at some point in the future (just check the sodium level per serving - it should be around 60mg, not over 100mg. Most pork is "enhanced" with a saline solution, which provides WAY too much salt for the cats).
But if you're balancing the meat with calcium, providing them liver, and an omega 3 supplement - AND feeding them egg yolks, with a nice rotation of proteins - that's what they need.

Click to expand...

This makes me happy! Especially after the panic mode I was in recently. I feel like I have a better handle on it, thanks to all you guys which I appreciate VERY much and I'm sure my boys do, too.  I will work on adding some of the things you mentioned above and I have been checking out Hare Today so I just have to push the button :-).  My sister went to the store with me today and informed me on some meat FAQ's I had. She's not really a meat person either but she has way more knowledge than I do. She was pretty helpful. 

wolcar said:

I'm supposed to feed .225oz/day as well.  I feed 4.5oz/day. Does that mean I should decrease the meat by .225oz/day because of the liver?

I guess I should first figure out how much liver I'm giving them. UGH, at least, for now, they are getting the liver.  My grandmother used to order liver from Perkins when I took her out to dinner. After reading some of these posts about meats and livers and whatnot, I'm wondering what type of liver she was eating.

Click to expand...

By the way - you can balance the liver per week.....
You can give 2 meals of 0.79oz per week, or give a small amount daily..... or a liver meal a week (which I don't recommend because of diarrhea...... )

The daily amount is so small, IMHO it really won't make much of a difference....

I do it daily as I feed in treats. Since the amount is 3.71 cubes a day, I will probably give them 4 cubes a day

wolcar said:

This makes me happy! Especially after the panic mode I was in recently. I feel like I have a better handle on it, thanks to all you guys which I appreciate VERY much and I'm sure my boys do, too.  I will work on adding some of the things you mentioned above and I have been checking out Hare Today so I just have to push the button :-).  My sister went to the store with me today and informed me on some meat FAQ's I had. She's not really a meat person either but she has way more knowledge than I do. She was pretty helpful. 

Click to expand...

If you are Vegan, do NOT order the Turkey hearts until you are very comfortable cutting meat - my cats LOVE it, but it is like a murder scene

Carolina said:

If you are Vegan, do NOT order the Turkey hearts until you are very comfortable cutting meat - my cats LOVE it, but it is like a murder scene

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Thanks for the tip. I appreciate the info.  Unsure I can handle that. So far, as long as the meat doesn't look like the animal I've be somewhat okay.  The butcher has been  EXTREMELY helpful.  My sister's neighbor is actually a butcher so I've been going to him recently and he's been cutting everything for me. Currently, I've only chose to cut turkey breasts and beef.   I don't want to soley rely on others so I'm working on it...