Raw diet questions and concerns...

Ok... I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible, but I can't promise anything. A while back I posted about my girl Noelle who was diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis and IBD (feline triaditis) after being a dry food junkie for most of the first 8 years of her life (she is now 9).  Luckily, we were able to dodge a major bullet after surgery to reroute her gall bladder due to an obstruction in her bile duct. She is doing well now on 2.5mg of prednisolone every other day along with herbal medicine for IBD and pancreatitis that my vet was able to get through another holistic vet he works with. I currently feed both my girls Natures Variety Instinct canned food and add a good amount of water to it which they both seem to enjoy.  I was a bit concerned over the fat content in the food, as well as everything I've read about commercial food as a whole not being ideal, so I looked into a raw diet.  I found a premix called Better in the Raw, made by Know Better Pet Foods who claim you just add ground or chopped meat and water and you get a completely balanced diet which is AAFCO approved. Although I read about how cats are designed to handle raw meat and the risk of bacteria is minimal I am still concerned. I also read that raw meat may not be the best choice with a cat who is on prednisolone since the medicine can compromise the immune system. Anyway, I ordered the premix and got the proper amount of ground meat from a local butcher after doing much searching, (lamb and turkey). I made the food exactly the way they instructed and put it in the freezer in ziplock baggies after separating them into daily feedings. I gave one of my cats (Lindy) a little sample and she seems to have enjoyed it, but Noelle won't go near it. She has always been a fussy eater. So now I have a bunch of this food in my freezer and I don't know if it is the right thing to give to them. I have heard wonderful success stories of cats on raw diets and the company that makes the Better in the Raw premix has been very nice in calming my concerns. They said that IBD and pancreatitis are definitely diet related and that they have seen a complete reversal of IBD in just a few days after feeding raw.  That sounds great, but there is still my worries of the bacteria and the fact that she is on the prednisolone for her condition. Oh! I almost forgot, I have also read that freezing the food could affect the nutritional value? Specifically the levels of taurine? There are so many contradicting reports online it is really difficult to find a definite answer to my questions without new questions popping up... Does anyone have any experience with raw feeding like this? Given the circumstances, should I keep them on their wet, grain free canned diet since they seem to be doing ok on it? I just want what is best for my kitties and would appreciate any and all feedback that could help educate me with this.  Thanks! -Jim

There are pasteurized frozen raw foods available if you're concerned about bacteria. Nature's Variety, Primal, and Stella & Chewy's. Nature's Variety seems to be well accepted by a lot of cats, although of course kitties like to keep us guessing :lol3:. They have store locators on their websites.

Yeah I've seen those. The only problem is that they have ground bone which I read is a no no for pancreatitis cats. That's why this premix seemed good because it has the calcium without needing the bone.

Welcome!

I'll try to keep my post short too. :lol3:

1) Prednisolone and raw food. The 2.5mg dose of pred your kitty is on is a dose that is anti-inflammatory, not immune-suppressive. I have a kitty with an autoimmune problem (akin to feline hemolytic anemia). He needed to be on an immune-suppressive dose of pred for a number of years (his body thought his red blood cells were an invading virus, basically). My cat Lazlo is a cancer survivor. He is on a low dose of pred (5mg) daily as a maintenance dose post-chemotherapy. I have many years of experience in the use of pred, and this has been discussed quite thoroughly with all three vets we work closely with (two traditional, one holistic). The dose of pred Noelle is on is not going to impact her ability to handle the food (or rather the pathogens, if there are any, in the food. Though kibble is far more of a bacteria concern than raw is, actually).

2) Put them on a probiotic. After years on commercial kibble or canned or whatever, their gut flora is all out of whack. ANY acidophilus supplement will do, just ensure it has 10 billion active cultures ("CFUs"). I buy ours from the health food store (the refrigerated section). It is an acidophilus+bifidus supplement by Natural Factors. My husband and I also take it. Cats like the taste - just sprinkle it on their food once a day. I recommend everyone use an acidophilus supplement daily for their cats - for life - no matter WHAT they feed. Same for people too. But FYI, in the wild, cats eat entire prey. This means the stomach, stomach lining, small intestines, colon, etc., so they effectively get a probiotic with every meal.

3) Taurine does not degrade with freezing, but it does leach out with the water that "melts" off. So just mix up the baggie before you serve it.

4) Does the supplement you're using have vitamin E in it? We can help you figure out the right amount of Vitamin E to use to help prevent the effects of oxidation from freezing if the supplement doesn't have it in it already.

5) As to the issue of bacteria in the food. That was my main argument against feeding raw when our holistic vet suggested we switch back in 2010. I argued against raw for some time. In the end, doing the research on it, I ended up switching to raw in January of this year. The pathogen thing was my major hurdle, because I have three immune-compromised cats, and one was on chemotherapy at the time. I also have three boys prone to crystals, and I was worried about that too.

The long and short of it is... I did have a little vomiting and some diarrhea (once) in my transition to raw. The vomiting occurred when I introduced new proteins too quickly (primarily by one cat with a very sensitive tummy). I suspect that was the issue with the one instance of diarrhea that occurred. (I have 8 cats). The one thing I learned quite quickly in the transition? When something happens, it is over with QUICKLY. They throw up - and they're hungry again in 15 minutes. They have a bout of diarrhea - and it's over with that day. With some time, the raw improves their immune system response so much that if there's an issue with salmonella on the meat or something, I now believe that their systems will just... deal with it. :dk: Here is a discussion of why - we were just talking about this subject specifically, actually: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245431/dont-listen-to-tufts-university

6) Transition tips. A lot of us have transitioned (or are transtioning) our cats to raw this year (now), and I'm sure you'll get a LOT of help from us on this subject. The main thing? DO IT SLOWLY. You must take it at the cat's pace. Some kitties, like your Lindy, like it right away. Many - like Noelle - don't even realize it's food.

The way I explain it is like this. Imagine you've been eating dry cereal and canned stew for your entire life. Someone puts a salad down in front of you. Is that FOOD? :dk: It's going to take a lot of cheese, bacon, and salad dressing to get you to eat it at first. :lol3: Same principle for raw. The best way to start is just take a small amount - maybe 1/4 of teaspoon, and mix it into the wet food she DOES eat. Does she eat THAT? or does she detect it and walk away? If she eats it, SLOWLY increase the amount of raw-to-canned. If she doesn't? We've got a lot more ideas for you to try.

Hope this helps!

Actually, here is the specific post in that "Don't listen to Tufts" thread that discusses why and how a cat's GI system can handle the bacteria that MAY be present in raw meat: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245431/dont-listen-to-tufts-university#post_3216259

Wow!  Thank you Laurie! That was a lot of good info! I'm going to check out the link you posted a little later. The supplement has Vitamin E succinate in the ingredients. I tried freezing leftover mixture in ice cube trays and putting a little in Noelle's food but she just ate around it and avoided it altogether lol.  What a brat ... She is actually on an antibiotic for the next few days for what appears to be a bladder issue, so maybe it's good that she didn't eat it.  I heard you should discontinue raw food while on antibiotics, but then again there are 400 different opinions on every topic out there so I don't know what to believe anymore. I'm so glad there are people like you on here who are knowledgable and willing to help. Until now I really felt like I was alone and it was getting extremely frustrating and sad because I felt there was nothing I could do to get reliable info. I'd definitely like to stay in contact if that's cool with you!

I'm going to look into the probiotics as well! I know there are brands sold online. One that comes to mind is from Dr. Mercola. Not sure how great it is but Dr. Becker who promotes the stuff online does a really good job of selling me on it haha... Thanks again for the help!

I do NOT like this premix and would not in a million years feed this. How is it going to balance the high phosphorus amount in meats if this product contains 231mg calcium, BUT also 224mg phosphorus? This is false advertising to me and would be detrimental to kitties--or they are just that dumb as to think their product is great! This product no way balances the high phos in meats with the appropriate amount of calcium. http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_food_better_in_the_raw I wonder how many unknowing kitty parents have purchased this darn product?

A better [balanced!] premix would be Alnutrin. Since you are NOT using bones, you would choose Alnutrin with Calcium--they also have one that has all supplements for a bone-IN raw diet, so it is important to choose the correct product. Marta at knowwhatyoufeed.com is very upfront with all ingredients and their source.
 

I am so steamed about Better in the Raw that I might contact them and give 'em a piece of my mind.

WhollyCat said:

I do NOT like this premix and would not in a million years feed this. How is it going to balance the high phosphorus amount in meats if this product contains 231mg calcium, BUT also 224mg phosphorus? This is false advertising to me and would be detrimental to kitties--or they are just that dumb as to think their product is great! This product no way balances the high phos in meats with the appropriate amount of calcium. http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_food_better_in_the_raw I wonder how many unknowing kitty parents have purchased this darn product?

A better [balanced!] premix would be Alnutrin. Since you are NOT using bones, you would choose Alnutrin with Calcium--they also have one that has all supplements for a bone-IN raw diet, so it is important to choose the correct product. Marta at knowwhatyoufeed.com is very upfront with all ingredients and their source.
 

I am so steamed about Better in the Raw that I might contact them and give 'em a piece of my mind.

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The analysis you are looking at *includes* ground chicken meat. So the final food has a Cah of 1.03:1 which is perfectly acceptable.

mschauer said:

The analysis you are looking at *includes* ground chicken meat. So the final food has a Cah of 1.03:1 which is perfectly acceptable.

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Oh my goodness, you are right, mschauer, dumb me I didn't fully read the paragraph above the ingredients list, etc.! Thank you for catching this! Still, I would not use this product when IMO a better one, like Alnutrin, is available. (I am not affiliated with Alnutrin in any way.) Specifically I don't like the fact that the liver is sourced from beef, which many kitties are beef-intolerant, not knowing the amount of kelp, and whey protein--kitties do not process plant-based ingredients efficiently, and I highly suspect this adds to their calculations of the protein value.

Just thought I would pipe in here and state that I use Mercola's probiotic AND I use Alnutrin when I need to add a supplement to meat (like when ordering from Hare-Today) 

On the Mercola probiotic, I will say that my furkids do not really like the taste of it, so I had to   s l o w l y  introduce it to them rather than giving them the recommended dosage in the beginning.  As a matter of fact, I still don't give them the full amount recommended on a daily basis.  It's quite a bit.  I think next time I order some, I may go with something else.  But that's just me and my extremely picky cats.  I'm assuming the reason sometimes they refuse food is because of too much of the probiotic, but it could be something else!  They never had any problem when I was using a different product (the kind kept in the fridge)

And don't forget digestive enzymes.  When first starting on raw, most of us use them...helps the kitties digest that raw meat better. 

mschauer said:

The analysis you are looking at *includes* ground chicken meat. So the final food has a Cah of 1.03:1 which is perfectly acceptable.

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Oh! Forgot to add that I feel that the cahos ratio seems a bit low to me to be fed long-term. JMO.

How necessary are the digestive enzymes? Also with so many choices out there, which probiotic and enzymes are best? I mentioned enzymes to my vet a while back and he mentioned that it is not a "benign" treatment and they can have side effects. He mentioned mouth sores as being one of them. As far as the Alnutrin goes, would there be a problem switching to that after (and if) I eventually get both of them into eating raw and they finish the Better in the Raw food I already prepared? 

I don't think there would be a problem switching to the Alnutrin+calcium instead of whatever you're using now. If you want to compare products, there is another one meant to complete just meat. It's by Wysong. It's called Call of the Wild. I use it for my one cat that doesn't like organs.

As to the digestive enzymes, I would revisit that with the vet. With Noelle's pancreatitis, I don't know if it would help or hurt. :dk: Digestive enzymes are often recommended during a raw transition, or in older kitties (same for older people!) as our systems don't work as well as they used to, and they help derive more nutrition from the food. I didn't start using them until about three weeks into the transition already, then I usually forgot to give them, and then I just didn't bother. :lol3: I'm not so sure I'd worry about the mouth sores. So little gets used, and cats don't tend to chew much. Maybe the vet meant not to use them long term? :dk:

Yeah they didn't say anything about organ meat. They just said to get any meat your cat prefers ground or chopped. They recommended poultry to start off but didn't say anything about organs. I know one of the ingredients in the supplement is beef liver, maybe that is meant to replace getting organ meat?    Here is a link to the video they have which shows how you make their food. 

Jim Peterford said:

Yeah I've seen those. The only problem is that they have ground bone which I read is a no no for pancreatitis cats. That's why this premix seemed good because it has the calcium without needing the bone.

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Jim, I really have to go to bed, so I will keep this short.... Yes, same here, reason why I did not feed bones to my Bugsy - nope, he doesn't have pancreatitis, but with his IBD, I did not want to push my luck.
There are some brands of commercial raw that are bone free - my favorite is Rad Cat.
There is also Nature's Menu.... Rad Cat uses human grade bone meal, and Nature's Menu uses straight Calcium. Rad Cat is highly accpeted and generally LOVED by kitties - one of the brands that is in fact, the easiest to transition into :nod:
The quality is superb - I highly recommend them.

As for enzymes, I would discuss that with the vet again, I have read quite a few times them to be beneficial for kitties with pancreatities.....
Anyways, all the best for you and your baby

Thanks! I'm going to look into those brands now! Yeah, I read that enzymes have been beneficial too. Last time I brought it up to my vet though, he said he didn't have a problem with me using them, but he hasn't really heard of them being used unless the pancreas cannot produce them itself and they were needed. Then the specialist who performed her surgery mentioned the side effects so I kinda just threw the idea on the back burner. He's also strongly recommended against feeding raw, but I know a lot of vets are trained to think that raw is bad. So frustrating 

Just looked into it. Natures Menu is out since they use grains from what I saw, and chicken which I believe Noelle has a bad reaction to.

I was totally into the Rad Cat brand but I wasn't sure about bone meal and how it differs from ground bone. Then I read this... http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/bone-meal/

Don't know how accurate this is.... 

Jim Peterford said:

Just looked into it. Natures Menu is out since they use grains from what I saw, and chicken which I believe Noelle has a bad reaction to.

I was totally into the Rad Cat brand but I wasn't sure about bone meal and how it differs from ground bone. Then I read this... http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/bone-meal/

Don't know how accurate this is.... 

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IMO Rad Cat is absolutely the best commercial raw food available. That site is referring to gardening grade bone meal. Only human grade bone meal is used in commercial raw cat foods.

Oh, and to introduce all of you.... This is Noelle 

and this is Lindy