help with trying to get Ulysses to lose weight

Hi. I'm new to the site (but have been lurking).  I have two brothers that are almost 3.  They are large framed cats.  My Gus is a healthy 13 lbs (he could stand to be 11 or 12, though) but my Ulysses is pushing 17lbs.  I feed them Evo canned food.  They each get a 1/2 can twice a day, so that is 5.5 ounces per day. I probably give them about 3 pounce treats a day.  I've also been trying to play with them 2x per day for at least 15 minutes at a time for additional exercise.  They are still young and run around a bit on their own. According to my calculations, their each getting about 215-230 calories a day.  I've read that cats should be fed 20-30 calories per body weight per day. If I got on the light side, then I'm feeding them less than they need but Ulysses still isn't losing any weight. I'm guessing I should feed him less but I already feel like he's not eating  that much. Can someone just shed some light on this for me? I don't want to switch to a low fat food or anything like that but I am willing to change their food if there is something more high quality that I should be feeding them.  First picture is Gus - second picture is Ulysses.  Thanks for any help, guys.

Hi! Welcome to TCS!

First, your boys are gorgeous! 

As for the Ulysses needing to lose weight, you might want to reconsider your "no low fat" stand.

In order for U to lose weight you need to either feed him less or feed him a less calorie dense food. You said you don't want to feed him less food so that only leaves feeding a less calorie dense food. Foods that are less calorie dense are the ones that are lower in fat.

You didn't say which EVO canned food you use but both the 95% meat and the regular are very high in fat and have about 40 kcal (calories) per oz. In my experience 32-35 kcal/oz is more typical.

If you take a look at a thread I started recently you'll find a link to a spreadsheet I made that compares the calorie content and source of calories of a few foods:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245993/high-quality-canned-high-fat

Pretty any canned food is going to be lower in calories than EVO so switching U to eating the same amount of just about anything should help him to lose weight.

I think I did stumble across that thread.  I wasn't aware that Evo was high in fat.  I was approaching the weight loss with a calories in / calories out, but I figured I was at a good # for the calories in, based on the calories listed on the can of EVO.   I feed them a variety of the flavors.

When I said I didn't want to feed them low fat stuff, I meant that I didn't want to put them on 'diet' food.

So, I basically want to feed my boys the best out there, which I know can probably be slightly relative.  What would be a good lower fat wet food to give them that's got good stuff in it for them?

I've been feeding him 200 calories of food a day with three pounce treats a day for 1.5 weeks and he's down from 17lbs to 16.6 lbs.  At lease we're making progress. 

Thanks for the help. I wish I could take them running with me - that would help them lose weight :-) lol

Gosh, after looking at the spreadsheet again, the Evo IS really high in fat. Sheesh!  Here I thought I was giving them the best :-(  Maybe it's just not the best for them.

wolcar said:

Gosh, after looking at the spreadsheet again, the Evo IS really high in fat. Sheesh!  Here I thought I was giving them the best :-(  Maybe it's just not the best for them.

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 Yeah, like I said, just about anything would be better than EVO. 

I find it hard to recommend specific foods because there are so many different opinions on what constitutes a "good" product. I have a foster than I'm working on getting to lose weight. After what I learned creating that spreadsheet I'm going to switch him to Sheba and by Nature. Sheba has by-products which a lot of people don't like to see in cat food. They don't bother me so much. I had to order the by Nature products on-line because I couldn't find them locally and if they can't be found in Houston they probably can't be found in most places.

Weruva is very low in fat but is quite expensive and frankly I'm worried it might be a bit *too* low in fat.

I hear you on the recommending foods.  Maybe I'll give a few of these other ones a try and see what happens. My boys will eat anything, so I'm lucky that way.  It's interesting to see all of this data compiled together.

Maybe you can play with them a couple times a day with da bird or a similar toy and help him burn off some extra calories? 

We've been playing a lot.  They actually never want to stop playing so I feel awful when I have to put the toy down. I also try and get them running back and forth in the house even though they do it on their own as well.  Ulysses is a slightly lazy player while Gus will run around until he can't breath. 

So far, we are on the right track.  Ulysses just weighed in 6 ounces lighter in about 1.5 weeks of no treats and calories limited to 200. Gus is a solid 13lbs even.  Hopefully I can continue this for about a lb or two and then re-assess.  They are really large framed cats.  They are both tall, have very long legs, big paws, and extremely long tails. I should measure them. When I go to my friend's and family's houses and see their cats they all look so petite. 

I often feel bad limiting Ulysses' food because when I found him and his brother Ulysses wasn't doing well and he almost died on me.  We had daily visits to the vet for fluids and anti-vomiting and diarrea meds and I had to feed him like a teaspoon of food every 2 hours. It was just awful!  Now, of course, he's thriving :-)

  This was Ulysses at the ER Vet, the poor guy. 7 ounces at 5 weeks.

Originally Posted by wolcar  

 What would be a good lower fat wet food to give them that's got good stuff in it for them?

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If you can find some of the canned Merrick flavours, like Grammies Pot Pie or Cowboy Cookout, they are decent foods with a reasonable fat content (and still low-carb, with the exception of California Roll). They are also lower in calories than all of the Evo varieties. Here's another chart for you to check out, that lists protein/fat/carb content along with calories per can of some common foods: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

This is another good chart. Thank you! I guess if I can find a good food with less calories then I can give them a smidgen more and still stay within calories. That way we're all happy in the house :-)

These two are my first two cats ever, so I'm a bit clueless when it comes to all of it.  I'm learning as I go.  My friends think it's funny that I have a fat cat since I'm a crazy athlete that eats very healthy. lol 

wolcar said:

These two are my first two cats ever, so I'm a bit clueless when it comes to all of it.  I'm learning as I go.  My friends think it's funny that I have a fat cat since I'm a crazy athlete that eats very healthy. lol 

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Well, since you've said this, and no one's mentioned it yet, have you ever heard of feeding cats raw food? For cats, this is the equivalent of feeding them a health food (species-appropriate) diet. It never occurred to me to feed my cats raw food (though that's what I feed them now). We're kind of ... trained to think we need to feed them canned or kibble. Your kitties are already a step ahead on the quality-of-food front, because you're not feeding them any kibble. But if you want to think about species-appropriate "health food equivalent" cat-nutrition, this is food for thought, so-to-speak: http://rawfedcats.org/feedingraw.htm

There are a lot of commercially prepared, "complete & balanced" raw foods available for kitties, you don't have to make it yourself (though that is an option that isn't overly difficult). It's very much like feeding canned, only you have to dethaw some of the food rather than opening a can. :dk:

Just putting it out there, since I would have appreciated it if someone challenged me to think about this 9 or 10 years ago, not one year ago. (And then I argued against it, and in researching it.... I ended up switching my cats.

I've thought about feeding them raw. I investigated it a little but it seemed very complicated.  I'm sure it's not once you figure it all out.  That website you linked was very informative, though.

What would be a few good, easy, and simple raw items to give them as one of their meals?  On occasion I give split a can of sardines between the two of them (in water with no salt added) and they are ravenous with it, so I'm guessing they would enjoy other raw items. hmmm, are sardines raw? I'm not even sure about that. lol.  They are so funny when they eat the sardines, too.  I have to open the can behind a closed door because they freak out and then they kind of growl when they're eating them. It's cute. 

The website mentioned just cutting up a few bite size peices of chicken or something.  So, I would just thaw the chicken, cut it, and serve?  What would be a standard serving for a cat? And are there any concerns I should be aware of? 

Actually, there are a number of commercial foods that are set and ready to go. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239950/questions-about-commercial-raw

The most widely distributed is Nature's Variety frozen raw. All of their stuff is "balanced and complete." Bravo is pretty widely distributed - they have some that are balanced, and some that aren't. Their balanced and complete foods are called "Bravo Balanced." :lol3: Rad Cat isn't as widely distributed, but is typically REALLY liked by cats and a great transition food. Stella & Chewy's doesn't make frozen raw for cats, but their frozen raw for dogs is supplemented with taurine, so is appropriate for cats. :nod: Primal is also available in a lot of places, and seems to be pretty well liked by cats. Nature's Menu is not widely distributed, but isn't overly expensive to have shipped when ordered from their site. My local pet store (not the chain stores) carried Vital Essentials. It's another good quality complete & balanced frozen raw food.

The sardines are cooked, but they're a great addition to any diet in a limited amount (as you're feeding them), because of the omega 3s. :nod: I include a weekly snack of a sardine for each of my cats.

But basically meat needs to be balanced with bone and organs - unless you use a supplement that makes meat complete. There is one I use with one of my cats who doesn't like organs. It's called Call of the Wild, and it's made by Wysong: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php

Meat is very high in phosphorus, and has almost no calcium. And organs have vital nutrients. So to make home made, if feeding whole prey model raw (also called "frankenprey") (as opposed to making ground food following a recipe - there are several time-tested recipes created by vets out there), meat is fed with bones or a calcium supplement and a small amount of organs. The diet is typically balanced over a week. The ratio (if feeding bones) is 80% meat / 10% bone / 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ. Some people add a few supplements (we discuss that here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/244024/if-making-home-made-what-supplements-do-you-use-and-why )

I have 8 cats. This is their menu: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240497/started-them-on-raw-tonight-d/660#post_3205525 I don't feed bones, I supplement with calcium (feeding bones is easily done by feeding 3-4 bone-in meals a week, typically chicken wings or something).

If a cat is eating 4-6 ounces of wet food a day, they typically only need 3-5 ounces of raw food. Depends on the cat and activity level. The guideline for feeding raw is 2% - 4% of the cat's body weight (mine all eat around 2% - 2.5% . I have one fat cat with a slow metabolism. He's eating less that 2%).

The raw food forum has a lot of information - you can poke around there. There is also a thread compiling a lot of links: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

Preparing your own can seem a little overwhelming at first. That's why it's kind of nice to start with commercial raw, get comfortable with the process, then begin making your own. (At least it was for me :lol3: ). But yes - you can feed up to 15% of their diet not balanced, so if you wanted to feed them a little bit of raw chicken, turkey, pork, or whatever, you can snip of some pieces of whatever you're making for dinner before you prep it (if you're not vegetarian or vegan) and see if they like it.

But if you are interested, feel free to start a thread in the raw food forum with ANY questions!

Your menu is interesting AND neat & organized :-)  One day you had chicken thigh or something like that.  Do you just give them a thigh of chicken and they eat it up? 

I got some of the Red Cat Raw Chicken and the Primal Turkey nuggets. I figured I would give it a try.  I will peek over at the raw section and see if I can learn a thing or two and ask questions as they arise.

I'm assuming when you said cats eat 2-4% you meant ounces, correct?  So, the calories really don't come into play with a raw diet or are all of the calories within the meats and whatnot relatively the same?  I'm a raw vegan and have been for a very long while so I have no idea about meats :-(  I'm also an ultra runner so I pay absolutely no attention to calories for myself.  Cats, calories, and meat are all relatively new to me.  I just want my boys to be eating the right stuff in the right amounts.

Thank you for your help with all of this.

No, the proteins listed are only meat. I use eggshell powder and NOW calcium hydroxyapatite as calcium supplements (that is freeze dried bone, not bone meal). I like knowing exactly what the calciumhosphorus ratio is, and my cats are kind of spastic about chewing their meat - I still cut it up for them rather than just putting down a chunk of meat for them. They do a lot more chewing than they did on canned food, but... :lol3:

Some cats take to raw like ducks to water. Other cats don't recognize it as food. It may help to mix it in with their canned at first. I transitioned mine in a week or two by mixing the raw in with their canned and slowly increasing the percent. Several others have kitties that are still eating a mix of both six months into it.

And yes, while calories can be a consideration, basically I trim the fat off the meat. For your overweight kitty, you might want to start him at 2% of his body weight (at 17 pounds, he weighs 272 ounces, so 2% is 5.4 ounces of food, divided into however many meals you feed him. I feed 3 meals a day). A kitchen scale really helps (though with the patties and medallions, you know pretty well how much each one weighs, so it's not that difficult to "eye" how much to feed them). And you may want to weigh him every few days at first to see what's happening with his weight. A safe rate of weight loss is 1-2% of current body weight per week. Any faster than that, and you can run the risk of hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver). Then just adjust the amount you feed him accordingly.

A TCS member, Carolina, has a kitty that needed to lose weight. She switched to raw, and he gained a little bit at first. She trimmed the amount of food she was feeding him down to 2%, then 1.85%, and now I think he's around 1.7%. When she fed him less dark meat (lamb, turkey/chicken thigh) and more light meat, he lost some weight without adjusting the amount of food. When she added an omega 3 supplement - krill oil - he REALLY began losing weight. I'll ask her to check in here.

See, this is where I start to get confused when investigating a raw diet & perhaps I shouldn't think so far ahead.  Supplements and powders and whatnot.  I guess for now I will just try out the commercial raw products and go from there.  Maybe there is a starting raw for dummies thread somewhere lol

I will do the mixing the raw with the canned food to start and see how it goes.  My boys have never disappointed me with trying new things but this may be drastically new & different to them.  I can't wait to get them started.  I remember when I was feeding them dry food for a little and went back to wet - how different their coates were.  I can't imagine my babies being any more beautiful - lol  I also read that their poo can get runny on the raw in the beginning. Is there something specific that makes this happen? Too much of one thing or just needing adjustment time?

I just recently pushed their feedings back from 3pm to 6pm (I get up early and feed them early at 3:30am).  Gus isn't adjusting well to that and gives me stink eye. maybe 3 feedings would be better. That's a good idea. 

I've been keeping an eye on his weight to make sure he isn't losing too quickly.  He's only lost 6 ounces in about a week so he could probably stand to eat a little less.  I'm such a sucker, I tell you.

Well, 6 ounces is 2.2% of his body weight - you really don't want to go faster than that. Cats' liver's aren't designed to digest fat from energy stores, and they can easily become "flooded" with fat. An ideal rate of loss in a kitty is 1% - 2% of their body weight a week, so your Ulysses is right on track at the high-end.

As to the supplement thing... making home made cat food isn't rocket science, but it does take some learning. As a vegan, there must have been some kind of research required, a learning curve for ensuring you're getting all the protein and vitamins you need from what foods. :dk:

I would think It's actually easier when it comes to feeding cats, because in the wild, they get everything they need from their prey, no supplements. :lol3: IMO, the supplements we provide are simply to account for the difference in the proteins we feed them and the fact that they're not freshly killed. The chicken, turkey, pork, beef, whatever, are not mouse, rat, vole, or small wild bird. Even if you feed rabbit - it's from a farm, not hopping around eating whatever it would normally eat in the wild. So the protein/fat ratios are different, and the composition of the fat is different (the meat we feed them has a lower omega 3 profile than the meat they eat naturally). And the meat we feed them is transported, shelved, then likely frozen (or dethawed and then refrozen). So there is degradation of some of the nutrients.

But really, there's two schools of thinking as re: raw feeding. One is that meat, bones and organs fed in the proper proportions provides everything the kitties need. The other is as I've described - we need to account for the differences in what we feed them and how it is processed and handled vs. them hunting small rodents and eating it freshly killed.

My using calcium instead of bone is a choice. Most people who feed prey model raw feed their cats bone, and all it takes to get to the right level of calcium is 3-5 bone-in meals a week for most cats.

One thing you might want to consider no matter what you feed them, is a probiotic. Being a vegan, I don't know if you take one. Is there a vegan acidophilus supplement? There must be. :lol3: Anyway, the gut flora of most cats is out-of-whack no matter what food they eat (same for people who eat processed foods). Even on raw - very few of us feed whole prey, so the cats aren't eating stomachs or intestines. I recommend an acidophilus probiotic be fed to ALL cats daily, no matter the diet (in the wild, they'd be eating the stomach and intestines of prey animals, effectively providing probiotics). Any acidophilus supplement with 10 billion active cultures is a good idea, but especially when transitioning to raw. I feed mine an acidophilus + bifidus supplement. I just sprinkle the capsule on their morning meal. Most cats like it.

Think of it as... someone who's been eating canned stew their entire life. They're about to start eating whole grains and raw fruits and vegetables. There's going to be some GI "adjustments" in that process. :nod: The probiotics can help ease that transition. Actually, most kitties don't get diarrhea when switching to raw. That happens if they're fed to many organs at one meal or something - not usually an issue when using commercial raw to start. Sometimes some kitties have more sensitive stomachs, and new protein introductions can cause vomiting or diarrhea. But it's not a "given" at all. In fact, on raw, you'll see quite quickly the difference in bioavailability of the food. What comes out is MUCH smaller in volume than what goes in; it typically has no smell at all. You likely won't see a difference in the amount of pee, because you're already feeding wet food, but my cats now poop every 2-3 days.

If you can fit a 3rd meal in there, it's probably a good idea. For your kitty on the weight loss program, it'll help him not feel "deprived." Also, raw requires a lot of changes in the GI system, and one of those is a more acidic environment. This can make cats vomit bile sometimes. Having a third meal in there helps avoid that over-production of acid with nothing to digest. :nod:

The 6 ounces was over a week and half; otherwise, now that you broke it down mathmatically, I didn't realize 6 ounces was such a large percentage. I was proud of his 6 ounces but I will continue to be careful. I've read about the importance of making sure they don't lose weight too quickly, so I was keeping a watchful eye. 

Is there a reason you don't feed your cats bone?  Just wondering.

I was googling the supplements you mentioned.  'Ultra-pet products Total-Biotics Powder'  is that something you're talking about. It looks like it has what you mentioned in it.  Looking into the future,  Is this the only type of supplement you give your raw fed cats?  If that's the case, that part is easier than I thought ;-) lol  Perhaps I shouldn't look so far into the future, though.

Funny enough, it's not the heavy cat that wants me to feed him all the time - it's the other one, Gus.  Ulysses is only pushy with requesting lovin'. :-)

I really appreciate all of the information you've been giving me.

No problem.

Well, I think most of us feeding raw - whether it's ground home-made or frankenprey - provide some taurine and an omega 3 supplement (in cats, it needs to be from an animal source - they lack the digestive enzymes necessary to utilize omega 3 from plant-based sources. The most popular are salmon oil or krill oil).

Taurine is an amino acid cats need to prevent heart and eye problems, and they can't synthesize it from its building blocks. BUT it's also water soluble, so doesn't build up in their tissues. You have to work REALLY hard to over-supplement to a toxic level with taurine. A good mix of proteins and thigh vs breast probably provides more taurine than they need - and it isn't destroyed by freezing (but it does leach out in the water that runs off when you dethaw). So I split a 500mg capsule between the 8 cats (just sprinkle on their food at one meal) every other day. I think someone adds 250mg for each cat daily. It varies. For many of us, it's just one of those "better safe than sorry" kind of things, really, and probably isn't necessary.

As to the omega 3, that's basically because the proteins we feed, even if grass-fed, are fattier than their small prey. In their natural diet, their omega 6: omega 3 ratio is about 2:1. In most commercial canned/kibble diets, it's typically 17:1. In the diet I feed them, prior to salmon oil supplementation, it was 12:1. I use a 1,000mg salmon oil capsule, poke it with a knife, and drop 3-5 drops (I have cats that range in size from 7 pounds to 16) on each cat's meal - each meal. This brought the omega 6: omega 3 ratio down to 4:1. Well - that includes my feeding them one (fairly large) canned sardine each week, and the raw egg yolk twice a week (also high in omega 3).

One of my cats can't keep liver down. I give him freeze-dried raw liver instead. :nod: (Freeze drying retains the nutrient profile of the food). It's SUCH a small percent of the overall diet, but it is an important part of it.

Some provide a B-supplement I think. And .... some supplement with Vitamin E. That's more for if you make home made ground and freeze a lot of it - the Vitamin E helps with the oxidation damage that can occur from grinding and freezing.


For me, the calcium thing... well, I was scared of my cats eating bones, basically. Well - bones that weren't ground. It's not an issue when feeding ground - but it is hard to control the amount of calcium they're getting unless you're making your own ground food, which I wasn't. Several of my kitties got constipated (too much calcium = constipated; too little = diarrhea or soft stools) on ground bone-in stuff. So I had to thin out the ground food with plain meat. A couple of my boys decided they liked the chunks of meat, rather than ground. So I had to scramble to figure out how to feed frankenprey. :lol3: It felt like that - but honestly, nutritional deficiencies take a pretty long time to develop, especially in adult cats (just like in people), so there really wasn't a rush to get it all "right" or "perfect." I wasn't completely comfortable with the idea of feeding them bones as feeding raw was still pretty new to me. Some people just jump right in, offer their kitty a chicken wing, and that's it, everyone's happy. :lol3: But I was hesitant, and another TCS member had started a thread in the raw forum about feeding "boneless frankenprey." When I found there were some nice calcium alternatives, and that I could control how much calcium I give them - and know exactly how much calcium they're getting, I went that route.

But one of my cats doesn't like organs at all. So rather than try to figure out how to make him eat them, he gets plain meat with the Wysong Call of the Wild Supplement. It makes just plain meat "complete and balanced," including the calcium. It's very easy. It takes 1/2 a teaspoon per 1.5 ounces of meat. He loves it. :lol3:

Just wanted to say, kudos to you wolcar for going raw with your kitties!