Talk to your vet

I know this is going to sound rather preachy, but after reading through some of the questions that cat owners have posted regarding what is the best food, I would like to say that I thought I was doing the best thing for my cat when I gave him the tartar-control treats and the hairball-control treats, and supplimented his dry food with half a can of Friskies each day.  But it turns out that I was more than likely doing just the wrong thing.  Now, since his bout with pancreatitis, more than likely caused by the things I was feeding him, I will not give him or his brother any more of the above food or treats.  It really scared me with how sick he was and the thought that I might lose him because of what I fed him, well . . . .

        My advice:  if you have any questions about what to feed your cats, please just ask your vet.  They are the ones to give you straight information.  Yes, a visit to the vet is not cheap, but I think you will save in the long run by not having to take your pets there when or if they become sick.

        That's the end of my preaching.  Hope all goes well for all of you and your sweet pets.   

I would say it really depends on the vet whether you get good information.  Going off vet information and advice meant I had a sick puking cat for several years because he never once suggested maybe feeding my carnivore something wet and meaty might be a good idea.  Instead he pushed corn and sawdust filled Science Diet.  Apparently his office outsells almost any vet in the state for SD because they pushed it as the cure for everything.  Doing my own research instead of blindly following his advice has made a world of difference and my cat is thriving now.  I've also switched vets to one who believes cats should be on a wet diet and not vaccinated like crazy, the other vet gives every shot under the sun, at the same time and every year to every animal he can. 

There are certainly vets who are better educated than others on nutrition issues, but it is always a good place to start. I would research what a vet told me, looking up ingrediient lists and also any conditions your cat has, before going back to ask the vet any questions you may have on why a certain food might be best for your cat. Not every cat benefits from the same diet. Take a second opinion, if you are not happy, and ask around to see if other owners consider their vet knowledgeable or not. Ultimately of course, it is up to every cat owner to feed the best they can afford to their animals, and to take the decision as to what to buy, but I would not ignore your vet without good reason. But it is true that some simply sell what they are told to sell.

I am very sorry you had such a sick kitty to start out.  And I'm really, really sorry you got involved with whom seems to be a very lousy vet.  Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of them out there.  As I said to another writer, not all cats are going to get sick from Iams or Friskies or any of the other commercial brands.  Some cats just have a more sensitive stomach.  It's pretty much a trial and error approach to finding what works best for your cat.  If he's thriving now, then that is a very good thing.

       I'm pleased to hear that you have switched vets.  If enough people leave the other one, he will soon be out of business and not able to hurt any other pets!!!!!

The thing is, my cat has nothing wrong with her.  Nothing.  My mom spent a fortune dragging this cat back and forth to the vet and on overpriced crap in a bag.  I moved out and changed her food to meat instead of grains she can't digest and she doesn't vomit, she's not in pain and she isn't shedding all over.  Now why on earth wouldn't a vet know that?  I was 14 when we got this cat so of course I believed whatever the vet said, that's what we had always done and what the rest of my family still does. Sadly this IS the good vet in town, the other is money grubbing and just as uninformed, but his office now has other vets on staff and they seem to have a clue on diet.  

Informing yourself is key, if only so you can tell if your vet is or not.  I had to switch ferret vets three times because they would claim they "treated" ferrets but didn't know the basics of common diseases or recommended dangerous and outdated treatments.  Only one vet that I called actually said they could give shots but they really weren't set up or experienced enough to handle them. 

When I took Hobo in to the vet they tried to put him od SD W/D for his weight. I said no thank you I already have a food picked for him. Well now I am going to all wet but no  thanks top my vet at all. Once we move I plan on finding a Holistic vet. Also I went to assisting school and we didn't get much for nutrition education. The teacher always talked about Iams, Euk, and SD. Hmm I wonder why.

I really like my vet. He is great with cats HOWEVER I've come to the conclusion that he has no idea about nutrition.

My old cat, for years, had weight problems and then constipation and this was from a diet of all dry kibble. I had no idea about wet food / canned food etc and my vet NEVER once suggested I give him wet food, but just told me to use weight control Science Diet. It wasn't until towards the end of my cat's life that I started to realize what I was feeding him was all wrong.

I have a new kitten now, which gets all wet food plus some raw. he's doing great. After his first check up, after the vet pronounced him to be in perfect health / ideal weight, he told me to switch his food to  Science Diet. I looked at the ingredients on that and there is no way I am giving that to my cat when he is perfectly healthy on his current diet. 

I do think people should go to the vet with medical problems instead of asking for advice online, but there are some things you can learn about by just doing some diligent research and fact-checking, and then discussing with your vet (or another vet if you believe your own vet is less than knowledgeable on the subject).

I have had very good luck with vets in my days, but not a single one had very good knowledge about nutrition, unless there was a need for a prescription diet. Vets are marketed by pet food suppliers and each of my last 3 vets SWORE by different brands (Science Diet, Purina and I-Vet brands). All are full of fillers, and Purina and I-Vet made my kids sick. Their explanations on why they recommended the food were right out of a brochure from their vendors.

The most honest vet I knew was a cat specialist, who flat out stated that she did not receive very good information from vet school on nutrition, and vet student education comes from the food vendors that solicit them. She knew more than most, cause she made an attempt to learn on her own what was best.

If you have no other resources and don't want to research the topic on your own, then take the advice of your vet. But be prepared to challenge them if your kid develops issues that are digestive / allergy related.

One of the vets at one of the practices we used was chatting with someone in the lobby about what to feed their cat after kitty just had a dental. She said to keep her on kibble as it's good for their teeth. I cringed. :lol3: Debating here on TCS about kibble, the studies are easy to find - other than specially formulated kibble, kibble is NOT good for their teeth. It just shatters, so provides no dental advantage.

Unless vets have an interest and have done additional research on their own or had supplemental training in nutrition from someone other than the Pet Food Industry, vets tend to be no more knowledgeable about nutrition than anyone who can google. The one vet we work with that is a D.V.M. with an additional nutritional certification only recommends a raw diet. She'll work with people who want to feed canned, but does insist on a kibble-free diet, period.

 What a great thread!

I have the utmost respect for vets. I think their's is one of the most difficult professions there is and I absolutely believe that the vast majority of them have nothing but the best interest of their patients in mind when they prescribe any treatment.

But, the simple fact is they don't receive the nutrition education that they should. It has become abundantly obvious that *so* many illness in our furbabies are diet related so this gap in their education makes no sense. At least some vets are starting to realize this but they are still the minority.

LDG said:

One of the vets at one of the practices we used was chatting with someone in the lobby about what to feed their cat after kitty just had a dental. She said to keep her on kibble as it's good for their teeth. I cringed.

Debating here on TCS about kibble, the studies are easy to find - other than specially formulated kibble, kibble is NOT good for their teeth. It just shatters, so provides no dental advantage.
Unless vets have an interest and have done additional research on their own or had supplemental training in nutrition from someone other than the Pet Food Industry, vets tend to be no more knowledgeable about nutrition than anyone who can google. The one vet we work with that is a D.V.M. with an additional nutritional certification only recommends a raw diet. She'll work with people who want to feed canned, but does insist on a kibble-free diet, period.

Click to expand...

Well LDG I will respectfully disagree a bit here.  Kibble provides texture and nutrition in some cases and will also provide some dental help depending upon what the kibble is treated with. Any vet that insists upon a kibble free diet would not be my choice of vet.  That of course is just me but it would seem the vet is being exclusive to his or her own beliefs and opinions.  That would be a vet I would personally avoid.  I think my vet it great too and he has a ton of certifications and a lot of knowledge.  He is also heavily involved in cat rescue.  His advice is usually along the lines of Waltham ideas. 80% wet to 20% dry etc.  He advocates a raw diet for those that choose to go that path.  I prefer a vet that investigates and researches all options available to us and he is just that.

Best regards
 

NutroMike said:

Well LDG I will respectfully disagree a bit here.  Kibble provides texture and nutrition in some cases and will also provide some dental help depending upon what the kibble is treated with. Any vet that insists upon a kibble free diet would not be my choice of vet.  That of course is just me but it would seem the vet is being exclusive to his or her own beliefs and opinions.  That would be a vet I would personally avoid.  I think my vet it great too and he has a ton of certifications and a lot of knowledge.  He is also heavily involved in cat rescue.  His advice is usually along the lines of Waltham ideas. 80% wet to 20% dry etc.  He advocates a raw diet for those that choose to go that path.  I prefer a vet that investigates and researches all options available to us and he is just that.

Best regards

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that kibble doesn't provide texture or nutrition. :dk: But kibble does not seem to provide any dental benefit unless it is specifically designed to do so:

http://www.ebvet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400

Evidence Based Veterinary Dentistry

It has long been felt that feeding a cat or a dog a dry kibble diet is better for the teeth than feeding them a processed, canned diet. The logic goes that dry food leaves less residue in the mouth for oral bacteria to feed on and so plaque would accumulate at a slower rate. Despite that, many animals fed on commercial dry diets still have heavy plaque and calculus accumulations and periodontal disease. This is because most dry pet foods are hard but brittle so that the kibble shatters without much resistance and so there is little or no abrasive effect from chewing.

There are currently seven commercially available pet foods that have received recognition by the Veterinary Oral Health Council as having a significant effect on plaque, calculus. These are Prescription Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Canine t/d Original Bites and Small Bites, New and Improved Prescription Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Feline t/d, Friskies[emoji]174[/emoji] Feline Dental Diet, Science Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Oral Care Diet for Dogs and Science Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Oral Care Diet for cats.

The mechanism of action for these diets is based on the physical properties of the kibble. Each nugget is quite large and so must be chewed before swallowing. The nuggets are hard, but not brittle, and so the teeth sink deep into the nugget before it splits. As the tooth is penetrating the nugget, the fibers in the food gently abrade the tooth surface, thereby removing plaque.

These diets are high-fiber maintenance diets for average mature animals but would not be appropriate to support growth, gestation/lactation or a very athletic life-style. Each of them is intended to be fed as the main calorie source. Research by Hill's found that the best results were obtained in this manner, but that there was still a measurable (but declining) benefit when the t/d diets were fed as 75%, 50% and even 25% of the total calorie intake. Using t/d simply as a treat will not meet expectations for the product.

Iams[emoji]174[/emoji] has a line of diets under the name Dental DefenseTM and Innovative Veterinary Diets has a Dental FormulaTM. These diets have been coated with HMP to reduce calculus accumulation. Keep in mind that calculus does not cause gingivitis or periodontal disease, bacterial plaque does. Calculus just makes it easier for the plaque to adhere to the tooth surfaces. Reducing calculus accumulation alone will not prevent gingivitis and periodontal disease, but it may make the job easier. The Iams[emoji]174[/emoji] Dental Defense diets have the VOHC Seal of Acceptance for calculus.

Click to expand...

Bold, my emphasis

Writing for Hill's Pet, Logan et al. (2000) (in Dental Disease section of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Fourth Edition. Topeka, KS: Mark Morris Institute) stated “Although consumption of soft foods may promote plaque accumulation, the general belief that dry foods provide significant oral cleansing should be regarded with skepticism. A moist food may perform similarly to a typical dry food in affecting plaque, stain and calculus accumulation…Typical dry dog and cat foods contribute little dental cleansing. As a tooth penetrates a kibble or treat the initial contact causes the food to shatter and crumble with contact only at the coronal tip of the tooth surface…The kibble crumbles…providing little or no mechanical cleansing….” (P. 487). The author also reviewed two studies on cat “dental” treats which showed “no significant difference in plaque or calculus accumulation with the addition of dental treats to either a dry or a moist cat food.”

Again, bold is my emphasis.

The bottom line is that even if most cats chewed their food (and many don't, which is why toothless cats do just fine eating dry food), when an animal bites on (most) kibble (unlike a bone), it crumbles.

With four siblings that are going to be 10 years old this year, primarily on a dry food diet for the first 4-5 years of life, then a mixed diet that was still primarily dry for the next 3-4 years, our experience would agree with the studies done in the U.S. that dry has no impact on oral health. It seems to me that genetics are the major driver, as our Spooky needed her first dental at the age of 1, had her first tooth removed at the age of 2, and has had to have a total of 4 teeth removed in her nine years. Her three siblings have all developed tartar/plaque at different rates, and all require dentals over differing lengths of time. None but Spooky have required tooth removal.

So while the dry food diet does not appear to have impacted their oral health, the dry food diet definitely caused problems for the boys' bladders. The three males all had problems with crystals, and interestingly two of them had an issue with struvite and one a problem with calcium oxalate (on the exact same diet).

The vet here doesn't like when clients research online.  Very close-minded to say the least, and I really hope to someday be able to find a vet that takes a more natural approach.  I don't listen to the current vet about nutrition, or for that matter vaccines/medications.  I prefer to research it myself and choose what option to go with (this vet gives out Metacam to cats like it is candy or something...).

I blindly followed every bit of advice my vet (cat only practice) gave me, I over vaccinated, and fed grain heavy, species inappropriate foods.

In essence, I followed advice that wound up killing the first cat I owned as an adult.

That was the driving force that led me to research pet nutrition and vaccination protocols.

In fact, I've spent 20 some odd years doing it.

I was appalled and more than a bit ashamed to discover that most vaccinations given protect for life, just as they do for humans.

In fact, I have gone so far as to turn around and walk out of practices that sell any pet foods other that RX diets, as well as those that push a declaw with spay/neuter as if it was a side order of fries.

Vets, like any other doctors, are not God, nor are they perfect, in fact, the biggest percentage of them didn't even graduate at the top of their respective classes.

I advocate research, research everything, be a proactive pet owner, and not a sheep.

LDG said:

I'm not arguing that kibble doesn't provide texture or nutrition.

But kibble does not seem to provide any dental benefit unless it is specifically designed to do so:
http://www.ebvet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400

Click to expand...

Evidence Based Veterinary Dentistry

It has long been felt that feeding a cat or a dog a dry kibble diet is better for the teeth than feeding them a processed, canned diet. The logic goes that dry food leaves less residue in the mouth for oral bacteria to feed on and so plaque would accumulate at a slower rate. Despite that, many animals fed on commercial dry diets still have heavy plaque and calculus accumulations and periodontal disease. This is because most dry pet foods are hard but brittle so that the kibble shatters without much resistance and so there is little or no abrasive effect from chewing.

There are currently seven commercially available pet foods that have received recognition by the Veterinary Oral Health Council as having a significant effect on plaque, calculus. These are Prescription Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Canine t/d Original Bites and Small Bites, New and Improved Prescription Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Feline t/d, Friskies[emoji]174[/emoji] Feline Dental Diet, Science Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Oral Care Diet for Dogs and Science Diet[emoji]174[/emoji] Oral Care Diet for cats.

The mechanism of action for these diets is based on the physical properties of the kibble. Each nugget is quite large and so must be chewed before swallowing. The nuggets are hard, but not brittle, and so the teeth sink deep into the nugget before it splits. As the tooth is penetrating the nugget, the fibers in the food gently abrade the tooth surface, thereby removing plaque.

These diets are high-fiber maintenance diets for average mature animals but would not be appropriate to support growth, gestation/lactation or a very athletic life-style. Each of them is intended to be fed as the main calorie source. Research by Hill's found that the best results were obtained in this manner, but that there was still a measurable (but declining) benefit when the t/d diets were fed as 75%, 50% and even 25% of the total calorie intake. Using t/d simply as a treat will not meet expectations for the product.

Iams[emoji]174[/emoji] has a line of diets under the name Dental DefenseTM and Innovative Veterinary Diets has a Dental FormulaTM. These diets have been coated with HMP to reduce calculus accumulation. Keep in mind that calculus does not cause gingivitis or periodontal disease, bacterial plaque does. Calculus just makes it easier for the plaque to adhere to the tooth surfaces. Reducing calculus accumulation alone will not prevent gingivitis and periodontal disease, but it may make the job easier. The Iams[emoji]174[/emoji] Dental Defense diets have the VOHC Seal of Acceptance for calculus.

Click to expand...

Bold, my emphasis

Writing for Hill's Pet, Logan et al. (2000) (in Dental Disease section of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Fourth Edition. Topeka, KS: Mark Morris Institute) stated “Although consumption of soft foods may promote plaque accumulation, the general belief that dry foods provide significant oral cleansing should be regarded with skepticism. A moist food may perform similarly to a typical dry food in affecting plaque, stain and calculus accumulation…Typical dry dog and cat foods contribute little dental cleansing. As a tooth penetrates a kibble or treat the initial contact causes the food to shatter and crumble with contact only at the coronal tip of the tooth surface…The kibble crumbles…providing little or no mechanical cleansing….” (P. 487). The author also reviewed two studies on cat “dental” treats which showed “no significant difference in plaque or calculus accumulation with the addition of dental treats to either a dry or a moist cat food.”

Again, bold is my emphasis.

The bottom line is that even if most cats chewed their food (and many don't, which is why toothless cats do just fine eating dry food), when an animal bites on (most) kibble (unlike a bone), it crumbles.

With four siblings that are going to be 10 years old this year, primarily on a dry food diet for the first 4-5 years of life, then a mixed diet that was still primarily dry for the next 3-4 years, our experience would agree with the studies done in the U.S. that dry has no impact on oral health. It seems to me that genetics are the major driver, as our Spooky needed her first dental at the age of 1, had her first tooth removed at the age of 2, and has had to have a total of 4 teeth removed in her nine years. Her three siblings have all developed tartar/plaque at different rates, and all require dentals over differing lengths of time. None but Spooky have required tooth removal.

So while the dry food diet does not appear to have impacted their oral health, the dry food diet definitely caused problems for the boys' bladders. The three males all had problems with crystals, and interestingly two of them had an issue with struvite and one a problem with calcium oxalate (on the exact same diet).

*****

Thank you LDG for citing your sources but again, I will respectfully disagree with a small part of it.  In the first place, the quotes are 11+ years old.  Veterinary science, in particularly Biometrics, has come a long way since then.  That said, yes, most commercial kibble offers very little, if any oral health benefits.  But some do.  Kibble shape and size has been researched and different types of treatments on the kibble will allow for some oral health benefits.  You are right that most cats do not chew their kibble which is why the kibble needs to be designed so the cat will at least crack the kibble.  I also have to agree that genetics plays a huge role in the cat's oral health destiny.  I think our fundamental differences on this issue boil down to;  Your stance that kibble offers no oral health benefits and my stance that in some cases, kibble will add oral health benefits.  We have both researched this issue and have a minor disagreement on it.  I don't think this is too bad, do you

My best regards to you and your family

furryfriends50 said:

The vet here doesn't like when clients research online.  Very close-minded to say the least, and I really hope to someday be able to find a vet that takes a more natural approach.  I don't listen to the current vet about nutrition, or for that matter vaccines/medications.  I prefer to research it myself and choose what option to go with (this vet gives out Metacam to cats like it is candy or something...).

Click to expand...

My vet likes proactive pet parents and is always more than willing to listen to them.  I must be pretty lucky to have the vet I have.  I always research an issue before bringing it up with the vet.  Sorry you don't care all that much for yours.  As in any medical profession there are good ones, bad ones and the pill pushers Choosing the correct vet is a hard choice to make.  Some people live in rural areas and don't have many choices.

Sorry, but I immediately disregard the advice of any Vet or article that recommends Science Diet.  

NutroMike said:

 As in any medical profession there are good ones, bad ones and the pill pushers

Choosing the correct vet is a hard choice to make.  Some people live in rural areas and don't have many choices.

Click to expand...

If only it were that simple!  

Unfortunately a vet can be perfectly wonderful in every way except when it comes to nutrition. Since the vast majority of them received very little training in nutrition when they were in school and haven't bothered with educating themselves since, they simply don't have the background they need to give good nutritional advice. In my opinion this doesn't make them "bad" vets.  

Finding a good vet who also has a solid grounding in nutrition can be very challenging, not just in rural areas.

"VOHC is not a regulatory agency. Submission of results of clinical trials to VOHC on behalf of a product is voluntary. If the data submitted demonstrate the required dental efficacy, the VOHC Seal of Acceptance is awarded to the product"

Plus even if those kibble did help stop tartar or whatever, at what cost?  The ingredients are awful and not carnivore appropriate so what good is clean teeth with a poor quality dried out diet?  These are the current VOHC approved foods btw with the first 5 ingredients

Hills t/d  Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose 10% (source of fiber)

SD oral care: Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Animal Fat (preserved mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose

Purina dental: Ground yellow corn, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, animal digest, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), powdered cellulose

mschauer said:

If only it were that simple!  

Unfortunately a vet can be perfectly wonderful in every way except when it comes to nutrition. Since the vast majority of them received very little training in nutrition when they were in school and haven't bothered with educating themselves since, they simply don't have the background they need to give good nutritional advice. In my opinion this doesn't make them "bad" vets.  

Finding a good vet who also has a solid grounding in nutrition can be very challenging, not just in rural areas.

Click to expand...

True MsChauer!  What is one to do?  I seriously wish nutrition education played a greater role in veterinary colleges. But then what would we have to talk about if every vet was an expert