This is going to be one for the books! Transitioning Lucky, Bugsy and Hope to Raw.... Challenges Gal

LDG said:

Carolina said:

The proof is in the poop

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Yeah, it's giving me a lot to think about too.

 

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Laurie, I am wondering, WHY aren't you feeding your cats raw?

CatMom2Wires said:

I do use psyllium powder in my cat mix. 

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Do you make your OWN raw?  I'm seriously considering switching to raw, but since I have the time, am thinking maybe I should invest in a meat grinder and learn to make my own.  Think in the long run it would be much less expensive, even if I buy organic.  'course, I would really have to read up on it to learn exactly how to do it and what all to add to make sure it's adequate.

Carolina said:

Hum..... You might want to consider Guar gum then.... That's why I did.... because it seems to increase the moisture content of the feces, but not so much the volume, like psyllium

There are two types of fiber - soluble and insoluble. Psyllium is a combination of both types. Guar gum is strictly soluble. I use this source of fiber because it does not seem to add as much bulk to the stool when compared to insoluble fiber but it does increase the water content of the feces, thereby softening it.
Soluble fiber also has some properties that promote intestinal (colon) health.http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#Constipation

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Guar Gum sounds a lot like Miralax.  I'm pretty sure this is how Miralax was explained to me as to why it works so much better than say Metamucil or other fiber sources

and on another note:   HOORAY for another good day and YAY on the Poop - 0 - Meter getting fixed

mrsgreenjeens said:

 


Laurie, I am wondering, WHY aren't you feeding your cats raw?



Do you make your OWN raw?  I'm seriously considering switching to raw, but since I have the time, am thinking maybe I should invest in a meat grinder and learn to make my own.  Think in the long run it would be much less expensive, even if I buy organic.  'course, I would really have to read up on it to learn exactly how to do it and what all to add to make sure it's adequate.



Guar Gum sounds a lot like Miralax.  I'm pretty sure this is how Miralax was explained to me as to why it works so much better than say Metamucil or other fiber sources

and on another note:   HOORAY for another good day and YAY on the Poop - 0 - Meter getting fixed :lol3:

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This is a good reading - recipe, I think.... on the video, didn't take long enough and it was well explained:
http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#The_Recipe

Here is the video:
http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#Putting_the_Recipe_Together

Before you Dive in: http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#Before_you_dive_in....

About Miralax - I have both.... that's stronger I think.... it is more of a laxative, one that does soften the stools, but it is not a fiber; while guar gum is a soluble fiber, not a laxative :nod:

Sally, sourcing - even commercial - is turning out to be a problem. The "local" pet store is 45 minutes away. It was listed as a distributor for NV products, but they ONLY carry the dehydrated, and ONLY NV. Shipping adds considerably to the cost. I would save a lot doing home made, but there are even more practical hurdles to cover there, sourcing being a huge one. The RV only has 30 pounds of freezer space (7 cu ft fridge/freezer), and I figured out I'd need to feed 1.75 pounds - 2 pounds of raw a day (8 cats). Without (more) storage, it's just not feasible. Even the frozen commercial raw is a logistics problem, requiring 14 pounds/week. I think I've got that end worked out... now sourcing is the problem. I can't afford it with shipping. My cost is compared to the approximate $10/day I spend on canned now.

I can procure local organic chickens and grass fed beef... but the organs would be difficult (if not impossible). Turkey is seasonally available. I think we could find rabbit... but the cost of local sourcing for the quality raises the prices above most commercials (if you compare the per pound price without shipping). I might be able to find lamb; and duck I'm pretty sure is around, whole duck. Goat is easily available here, but I just realized... I never see anyone feeding it in homemade diets. I wonder why?

But right now, there's a lot to work out re: the logistics, really. A lot. :lol3: I'm working on it.

Edited to add: Sorry for the thread hijack, Carolina!

LDG said:

Sally, sourcing - even commercial - is turning out to be a problem. The "local" pet store is 45 minutes away. It was listed as a distributor for NV products, but they ONLY carry the dehydrated, and ONLY NV. Shipping adds considerably to the cost. I would save a lot doing home made, but there are even more practical hurdles to cover there, sourcing being a huge one. The RV only has 30 pounds of freezer space (7 cu ft fridge/freezer), and I figured out I'd need to feed 1.75 pounds - 2 pounds of raw a day (8 cats). Without (more) storage, it's just not feasible. Even the frozen commercial raw is a logistics problem, requiring 14 pounds/week. I think I've got that end worked out... now sourcing is the problem. I can't afford it with shipping. My cost is compared to the approximate $10/day I spend on canned now.
I can procure local organic chickens and grass fed beef... but the organs would be difficult (if not impossible). Turkey is seasonally available. I think we could find rabbit... but the cost of local sourcing for the quality raises the prices above most commercials (if you compare the per pound price without shipping). I might be able to find lamb; and duck I'm pretty sure is around, whole duck. Goat is easily available here, but I just realized... I never see anyone feeding it in homemade diets. I wonder why?
But right now, there's a lot to work out re: the logistics, really. A lot. :lol3: I'm working on it.
Edited to add: Sorry for the thread hijack, Carolina!

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I have many of the same obstacles. No source. No freezer. (Just a little ice box inside my refrigerator). Finances. Maybe some day, and reading Carolina's experiences makes me want to jump right in, but it's not going to happen at this time, nor in the foreseeable future.

LDG said:

Sally, sourcing - even commercial - is turning out to be a problem. The "local" pet store is 45 minutes away. It was listed as a distributor for NV products, but they ONLY carry the dehydrated, and ONLY NV. Shipping adds considerably to the cost. I would save a lot doing home made, but there are even more practical hurdles to cover there, sourcing being a huge one. The RV only has 30 pounds of freezer space (7 cu ft fridge/freezer), and I figured out I'd need to feed 1.75 pounds - 2 pounds of raw a day (8 cats). Without (more) storage, it's just not feasible. Even the frozen commercial raw is a logistics problem, requiring 14 pounds/week. I think I've got that end worked out... now sourcing is the problem. I can't afford it with shipping. My cost is compared to the approximate $10/day I spend on canned now.
I can procure local organic chickens and grass fed beef... but the organs would be difficult (if not impossible). Turkey is seasonally available. I think we could find rabbit... but the cost of local sourcing for the quality raises the prices above most commercials (if you compare the per pound price without shipping). I might be able to find lamb; and duck I'm pretty sure is around, whole duck. Goat is easily available here, but I just realized... I never see anyone feeding it in homemade diets. I wonder why?
But right now, there's a lot to work out re: the logistics, really. A lot. :lol3: I'm working on it.
Edited to add: Sorry for the thread hijack, Carolina!

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otto said:

I have many of the same obstacles. No source. No freezer. (Just a little ice box inside my refrigerator). Finances. Maybe some day, and reading Carolina's experiences makes me want to jump right in, but it's not going to happen at this time, nor in the foreseeable future.

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For sources and freezer space :cross:

(Laurie, not a highjack at all..... I am loving that we can discuss all things raw related here - those points are certainly issues that people will run into also!! )

Ok, new trick on my sleeve..... This I owe it to Laurie

Lucky is starving, it is lunch time for momma and she needs more calories...... what to do..... Halo! But wait! Halo now..... Only re-hydrated so she can get used to chewing on something nice and wet with a similar texture to raw......... and she ate it
She was not too convinced in the beginning, begging for the crispy stuff, but when she saw she had no choice (and that Bugsy was stealing her treats away :lol3 she made her mind and started eating them like they were the best thing ever!!
She ate quite a few of them and begged for more!

Guess what momma? Halo now either on you raw treats or nice and chewy!

Hey Carolina - given she ate THAT.... what about buying some dehydrated S&C or NV for her? S&C are little nuggets... WAIT! Don't you still have some there?

LDG said:

Hey Carolina - given she ate THAT.... what about buying some dehydrated S&C or NV for her? S&C are little nuggets... WAIT! Don't you still have some there?

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S&C is a no-no....... Gave diarrhea on Bugsy....... and Lucky did not eat it - so that would not work.... (I think it has to do with the way the chicken is fed, apparently, according to Auntie) (It is with Milo now, my neighbor's kitten - he LOVES it)
Bugsy is crazy about Halo, and he has WAY too much energy now - he is kinda bully :lol3: so if I give treats for her, gotta give to him too :nod: to prevent him from become aggressive :nod:

I rather transition her from Halo wet to the raw food I have available than to another thing, then to the raw I have available...... I want them all on the same diet :nod: Momma doesn't want to go bankrupt in the process
I do want to use that not as a means of nutrition, but to get her used to the texture :nod:

Whoo hoo, Carolina!!! Your kitties are moving forward in leaps and bounds!!!   Yeah for Bugsy poop!!   Neat trick on Lucky!!

Grrrreeeaaattttt!!!!! update!!!

AC

Sorry, I meant JUST for Lucky. :nod: But as she hated it before.... Anyway, it was just a thought. If you still had it, I wondered how she'd react to it rehydrated (as another tool in getting her used to texture). I forgot she hated it. :lol3:

LDG said:

Sorry, I meant JUST for Lucky. :nod: But as she hated it before.... Anyway, it was just a thought. If you still had it, I wondered how she'd react to it rehydrated (as another tool in getting her used to texture). I forgot she hated it. :lol3:

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Oh yeah - she did not like it at all on the other hand..... Bugsy..... :lol3:

BTW AC - Don't know if you missed this.... RadCat lists the Nutrient Requirements for the AAFCO in Dry Matter as well for Raw, and how their food fit their standards - in re. to our discussion the other night:
http://www.radfood.com/site/856/LabAnalysis.pdf

Originally Posted by Carolina

BTW AC - Don't know if you missed this.... RadCat lists the Nutrient Requirements for the AAFCO in Dry Matter as well for Raw, and how their food fit their standards - in re. to our discussion the other night:
http://www.radfood.com/site/856/LabAnalysis.pdf
 

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For anyone interested in the AAFCO guideline values, this is a GREAT find, Carolina! Thanks for posting it!

AC

OMG- I had a busy morning so I missed a lot on this thread. POOP TALK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is really amazing - Carolina - you must be the happiest cat lady on the planet right now :lol3: :bigthumb: I know I am SO happy for Bugsy - finally - NORMAL POOP .....

Couple of questions. One was answered, wondering what type of fiber you use - the Miralax.... Where do you get the Halo dehydrated treats? I can't find them anywhere. Do you get them on-line? I am waiting for my Fortiflora to arrive. I can't wait to try it on Pipsqueak and see if I can get him at least tasting commercial raw. I AM extremely impressed with RadCat and will be asking my natural pet food store to order some in. I know they don't carry that brand but Stacy can order in anything . I am worried about the freeze-dried S&C having the ground-in bone now. Although, my cat's only get one raw meal a day - so might not be a problem. My cat's have not had have any diarrhea issues on the S&C like Bugsy did on the S&C. It is SO easy to feed too and my cat's love it except for Pipsqueak .... I always wet down the cubes first though.

I am just so excited every time I read this thread. I am seriously getting won over ..... Keep the great reports coming AND the POOPie reports

Auntie Crazy said:

For anyone interested in the AAFCO guideline values, this is a GREAT find, Carolina! Thanks for posting it!

AC

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100% agree -

Feline's Pride is akin to Rad Cat in quality, if anyone is interested. Both companies make their foods without adding any non-essentials like fruits and veggies.

Generally-speaking, cats on a raw diet shouldn't be on either laxatives or fiber supplements. If a particular recipe is too bone-heavy for a given kitty, then balancing the diet by rotating it with either another recipe (there are some that are bone-free) or a meal of fresh, raw meat is the most natural method of addressing the issue. Alternatively, of course, the bone-heavy product can just be dropped from rotation altogether.

I'm guessing that Bugsy's system is still getting used to actually forming solid poops. Between that and the 15% bone in the NV, it's understandable that he's pooping less frequently. And like someone's already mentioned, depositing waste in the litter box every three days is not outside what's normal for a raw fed kitty. Given a bit of time, I'm sure Bugsy's system will adjust enough to not need the fiber supplement he's getting now.

And, Carolina, I didn't realize you'd already taken him off two of his "meds", that is OUTSTANDING news!!!

AC

Feralvr said:

Where do you get the Halo dehydrated treats? I can't find them anywhere. Do you get them on-line?

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Amazon has them...too bad you didn't know about it...they could be on their way along with the Forti-flora.  I just ordered some thru Healthypets.com, since I was ordering some other stuff thru them too, and had a coupon.

otto said:

LDG said:

Sally, sourcing - even commercial - is turning out to be a problem. The "local" pet store is 45 minutes away. It was listed as a distributor for NV products, but they ONLY carry the dehydrated, and ONLY NV.

Shipping adds considerably to the cost. I would save a lot doing home made, but there are even more practical hurdles to cover there, sourcing being a huge one. The RV only has 30 pounds of freezer space (7 cu ft fridge/freezer), and I figured out I'd need to feed 1.75 pounds - 2 pounds of raw a day (8 cats). Without (more) storage, it's just not feasible. Even the frozen commercial raw is a logistics problem, requiring 14 pounds/week. I think I've got that end worked out... now sourcing is the problem. I can't afford it with shipping. My cost is compared to the approximate $10/day I spend on canned now.
I can procure local organic chickens and grass fed beef... but the organs would be difficult (if not impossible). Turkey is seasonally available. I think we could find rabbit... but the cost of local sourcing for the quality raises the prices above most commercials (if you compare the per pound price without shipping). I might be able to find lamb; and duck I'm pretty sure is around, whole duck. Goat is easily available here, but I just realized... I never see anyone feeding it in homemade diets. I wonder why?
But right now, there's a lot to work out re: the logistics, really. A lot.

I'm working on it.
Edited to add: Sorry for the thread hijack, Carolina!

Click to expand...

I have many of the same obstacles. No source. No freezer. (Just a little ice box inside my refrigerator). Finances. Maybe some day, and reading Carolina's experiences makes me want to jump right in, but it's not going to happen at this time, nor in the foreseeable future.
 

Click to expand...

Well, that certainly explains it!  What about dehydrated?  I thought I had read that you can actually buy dehydrated food (not just the treats) and then rehydrate it.  Then you don't need a freezer, not much space, and the shipping costs wouldn't be much.  Did I just imagine that I read that?  Maybe that discussion was just about treats and I didn't realize it

Feralvr said:

OMG- I had a busy morning so I missed a lot on this thread. POOP TALK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is really amazing - Carolina - you must be the happiest cat lady on the planet right now :lol3: :bigthumb: I know I am SO happy for Bugsy - finally - NORMAL POOP .....
Couple of questions. One was answered, wondering what type of fiber you use - the Miralax.... Where do you get the Halo dehydrated treats? I can't find them anywhere. Do you get them on-line? I am waiting for my Fortiflora to arrive. I can't wait to try it on Pipsqueak and see if I can get him at least tasting commercial raw. I AM extremely impressed with RadCat and will be asking my natural pet food store to order some in. I know they don't carry that brand but Stacy can order in anything . I am worried about the freeze-dried S&C having the ground-in bone now. Although, my cat's only get one raw meal a day - so might not be a problem. My cat's have not had have any diarrhea issues on the S&C like Bugsy did on the S&C. It is SO easy to feed too and my cat's love it except for Pipsqueak .... I always wet down the cubes first though.
I am just so excited every time I read this thread. I am seriously getting won over ..... Keep the great reports coming AND the POOPie reports

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Even though I do have Miralax, I am not using it - I will only use it in case I notice he is really constipated - don't take me wrong - it is safe and does work wonders, but I rather keep his system as clean and natural as possible, so since I am going on a raw diet.... I chose a lighter approach, with a fiber that also helps to increase the moisture content. My goal is to have him with nothing at all :nod:

Auntie Crazy said:

Feline's Pride is akin to Rad Cat in quality, if anyone is interested. Both companies make their foods without adding any non-essentials like fruits and veggies.

Generally-speaking, cats on a raw diet shouldn't be on either laxatives or fiber supplements. If a particular recipe is too bone-heavy for a given kitty, then balancing the diet by rotating it with either another recipe (there are some that are bone-free) or a meal of fresh, raw meat is the most natural method of addressing the issue. Alternatively, of course, the bone-heavy product can just be dropped from rotation altogether.

I'm guessing that Bugsy's system is still getting used to actually forming solid poops. Between that and the 15% bone in the NV, it's understandable that he's pooping less frequently. And like someone's already mentioned, depositing waste in the litter box every three days is not outside what's normal for a raw fed kitty. Given a bit of time, I'm sure Bugsy's system will adjust enough to not need the fiber supplement he's getting now.

And, Carolina, I didn't realize you'd already taken him off two of his "meds", that is OUTSTANDING news!!!

AC

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I checked Feline Pride, and I like what I see - especially the prices :nod: I will take a deeper look at them.... Maybe my PSP can order it for me.... What I like a LOT about RadCat though - for Bugsy, is the Bone Meal - that seems to bother him less at eating, I noticed a higher moisture content, his bites were more efficient..... and I am hoping to be easier on his digestive system too - we will see..... I will do my home work. :nod: I think I like the little tubs better than the patties - it seems to me that the patties are a little drier.... I mean... think about it - they need to be to hold the shape during processing.... While the tubs can hold the blood and all the moisture goodness in there - for Bugsy that is just a beauty. I do like the whole gelatin concept as well.... We will see!! I will check the shipping charges as well :nod:
Oh, about his supplements - I know - can you believe it Before this diet, whenever he went out of either align or runnipoo...... boy, it would get messy! now....... no problem! Just fine-and-dandy!!!!
The only thing he is on right now is a bit of fiber (which I don't even know he needs - just as a precautionary measure..... and one probiotic :nod:

mrsgreenjeens said:

Amazon has them...too bad you didn't know about it...they could be on their way along with the Forti-flora.  I just ordered some thru Healthypets.com, since I was ordering some other stuff thru them too, and had a coupon.

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that's where I get them!!

mrsgreenjeens said:

Well, that certainly explains it!  What about dehydrated?  I thought I had read that you can actually buy dehydrated food (not just the treats) and then rehydrate it.  Then you don't need a freezer, not much space, and the shipping costs wouldn't be much.  Did I just imagine that I read that?  Maybe that discussion was just about treats and I didn't realize it

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I wonder...... Is the nutrition in the dehydrated food the same as in the regular raw? :scratch:
AC, want to chime in?

Originally Posted by Carolina

Originally Posted by mrsgreenjeens

Well, that certainly explains it!  What about dehydrated?  I thought I had read that you can actually buy dehydrated food (not just the treats) and then rehydrate it.  Then you don't need a freezer, not much space, and the shipping costs wouldn't be much.  Did I just imagine that I read that?  Maybe that discussion was just about treats and I didn't realize it

Click to expand...

I wonder...... Is the nutrition in the dehydrated food the same as in the regular raw?

AC, want to chime in?

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Nature's Variety doesn't recommend freeze-dried raw for daily feeding, and from everything I've seen and read so far - dehydrated raw is great for treats and for the occasional meal (such as when you're traveling!), but not as the primary diet.

Although I've read several articles that rave about it, I haven't seen anything that I could positively get behind and say, yeah, it's ok to feed full time. Until I do, I won't recommend the practice.

Not a very definitive answer, I know, but I hope it helps a bit!

AC