Looking for some guidance and/or advice

Hi there everyone. New to the board, found a link at StrayPetAdvocacy.org and thought it would be nice to get some advice from people who are invested and look after stray/feral cats themselves.

I'm rural and currently have 3 feral cats who visit and have a bite to eat each day. They've been around for differing times. Momma (we call her Scruffles) has definitely been in the area for 2+ years, I've no clue how old she is. Scamp is a male and I believe he was born last year (to Scruffles we think). And just recently we met a new little kitten (I'm thinking Noah for now) and I believe he is from Scruffles' spring litter.

I have a 2.5 acre lot out here so the neighbours aren't super close, but I believe Scruffles & Co. have been living on my neighbour's property up until the last couple months. They have a large barn that is very run down (pretty much collapsed in a tornado we had 4 years ago). But there must be tons of hiding spots for them. This year my neighbour has started what I deem the "funny farm". She has sheep and chickens and then got a dog a little while ago. I do believe this is why the kitties have now decided to hang out more at my place. Both I and the neighbour have been putting food out regularly for them for nearly a year (though I do it every day, while she says not so regularly as she wants them to still want to hunt). I'm not really into staggering the food as I think it might be cruel to stagger the feedings, especially when kitties like routine so much.

Anyhow, it looks like Scruffles had her most recent litter somewhere in the barn, but for whatever reason, she decided to move the babies one day. Could be because the neighbour was sniffing around, or the dog might have made her nervous (he does have a fenced pen though). The neighbour saw Scruffles moving the babies to a nearby culvert and intercepted them that day and took the kittens in. She told me this after all was said and done, however I think everything went smoothly. All the kittens were fine and she found good homes with her friends and even kept one herself. But a few weeks later I got my first glimpse of Noah and we realized she must have missed one.

So now I've got this cute little threesome visiting every day. I have a number of concerns though.
1.) Momma is pregnant again.
2.) None of them are spayed/neutered.
3.) Winter is coming, and I live in Manitoba, Canada. It gets COLD.

So now that I'm seeing them so often and not really "sharing" them with the neighbour anymore, I've begun to wrack my brain on how to help keep them safe, sterile (^_^), fed and warm.

I would bring them in, but I already have 2 cats (Lucifer & Moses), an allergic spouse and a small house. I'm not sure I could manage 5 cats (plus a litter of kittens). My heart wants them, but my brain is hesitant. Also, this is a bit of premature thinking as they're all varying degrees of feral.

I've been working the last week or so to get them more familiarized with me. I sit nearby when they come to eat. I feel I've made some definite progress, mostly with Scamp. We've progressed to some really nice petting. Now he'll eat and then approach and let me pet him while he rubs against me for good 10-15 minute sessions. I have also petted little baby Noah a bit, and he looks up to his big brother Scamp (they're together so much) so I can see he's curious and will likely warm up more as well, though he's still obviously skittish.

The biggest hurdle is Scruffles (momma). She is extremely feral and I'm not sure what her history is, but she won't eat while I'm out there (within 10 feet). This has always been her way, pregnant or not. She has been watching me a lot the last week with Scamp and Noah and sometimes she'll come within 10 feet, but there she stays. I hope we're making some progress, even if it is very, very slow. She's so extremely feral I have a hard time imagining ever getting her trust.

With fall here and winter around the corner I feel like I have a clock ticking down, urging me to take some sort of action, my mind just can't figure out what to do though. And I'm very concerned for a litter of kittens that will be born so soon before a Manitoba winter.

I haven't really covered all my thoughts and questions yet, but this post is pretty long so perhaps I can cover more if we can start a dialogue. I can't say how comforting it is to see a group of people so caring gathered together to support each other and give newbies great advice. I've been so consumed with these cats that I think my family and spouse are beginning to wonder about me. ^_^ I had phoned my local vet this week, however I didn't get much sympathetic/concerned advice which disheartened me a bit. I look forward to any and all coaching and advice I can find here.

Do you have a barn or building of any type on your property that they can seek shelter in? If not maybe provide some sort of winter shelter... I'm looking into that myself right now for my ferals. I read somewhere that if you have an old solar pool cover you can use it over a cat box to help provided heat during the winter. I would look for a TNR program in your area and see if you can get them trapped and altered asap... with Momma being pregnant you may have to wait a while for her, unless she's not too far along. I wish you the best and I know you will get lots of valuable advice here. Thank you for taking care of them!

First of all, welcome to TCS!

And yes, we understand that worry. I live down in NJ, and fret excessively about the ferals. Of course, that's partly how we wound up with 8 cats inside with us. And we live in an RV, and I'm allergic to cats.

OK, some hard questions first.

How pregnant is she? I know this is a VERY difficult topic, and we all feel differently about it, and we all respect each other's decisions. But a lot of us who TNR (trap-neuter-return) choose to spay if the moms aren't too far along. It's heartbreaking, for sure. But there are already so many homeless cats. It's something to think long and hard about.

How allergic is DH? If he's not already taking something, is he willing to consider allergy medication? I found that ceterizine (zyrtec) really DOES work for pet allergies (it's the only one that claims to cover those as well). Would fostering the kittens then getting them adopted out potentially be an option if spaying her despite the pregnancy isn't?

Because you're right... making it through a Manitoba winter will likely prove quite difficult for those babies.

Momma cat sounds like she'd never be happy inside. While we can help with lots of ideas and suggestions for how to socialize ferals, because it CAN be done (!!), if they're truly feral and older than three, it's just tough on them.

For the others, if bringing them in isn't an option, there are things you can do.

Oh - an aside - cats make better mousers if properly fed.

I take it you've searched - and there aren't rescues or low-cost spay/neuter options? You'd have to pay full fare yourself? That's how we started, but our vet ended up giving us a break once we were large volume.

But you definitely need to start with getting them sterilized. They do not need to be socialized at all to do this. You just need a vet willing to work with you. I don't know where you live or what options there are. But if there's more than one vet, try calling around. I don't know that you're shopping for price so much as you're shopping for someone who cares. Or one that can lend you a trap. I don't know how things are up there, but here the rural vets all have them. We ended up buying one. But using a live trap is the absolute best way of doing it. And if the vet you're working with is willing, the way they work it for us is we just drop off the cat in the trap, and they work in the spay or neuter when they can, as soon as they can. They don't charge us for boarding any more, but we used to pay to keep the animal there for a day (if male), and two days (if female). Of course, make sure they know to use dissolving stitches for the spay!

We live in an RV with no garage or anything, so we had no place to leave a trap with a cat for a short recuperation period before releasing them. So I toss these ideas out there for you.

Do you have a garage or any outside structure? Anything that might provide them some shelter? If not, no worries, there are still quick and easy solutions. You'll still need the shovel though.

But this is a good starting place... and feel free to ask away.

I started looking up threads on shelters. Feralvilla used to sell the plans so you could make them yourself; I don't think they do anymore (don't know if they ship to Canada or how much the shipping would be if they do). You can contact Indyferal (http://www.indyferal.org) to ask, maybe. ?? Ok, I just checked. You'd probably need to contact Feral Villa - Indyferal isn't selling them anymore. I think I knew that. Here's that link: http://www.feralvilla.com/

The indyferal site has a great TNR resource section anyway, so I'm leaving the link here.

Anyway, here is the most recent thread on TCS discussing shelters and feeding stations: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234461

I must say - those cable drums are a great idea. With the holes at the end made larger if necessary and stuffed with straw, they'd be great.

Straw is the BEST insulator for kitties, whatever kind of shelter you make.

And the gabbing aside, this thread has good ideas, information, and links for winter shelters: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=220795

Thanks very much for the replies! I appreciate it!

Firstly, I am getting a large insulated doghouse (tonight hopefully if my boyfriend can get a truck to throw it in). It's free (BONUS!) from a co-worker of his, but apparently has siding and a shingled roof and is insulated. I'm very excited to get it here, as I've been looking at all of the websites, trying to figure out what the best type of shelter would have been to build. It's a bit harder here though, as a lot of those resources aren't specified for a Manitoba winter. So I'm hopeful that it will be a good place for my feline friends. I'm also trying to hunt down some straw bales (we're in prairie country, so this should not be difficult ^_^) so that I'll have bedding for the inside, and maybe put some around the dog/cat house as extra privacy/insulation.

The only TNR program I'm currently familiar with is the Winnipeg Humane Society here in Manitoba. It's about an hour and a half away, but that's doable. The problem is it only runs April - October as we have harsh winters and it could kill the poor kitties to be trapped in the cold. And obviously you're registering and getting on a wait list. My local vet does not practice TNR and indeed says they do not even have a trap that they could rent me. I was a bit put off with their response to my situation, they didn't seem to be very concerned about ferals, the message was basically "Let them do their thing." That's why I thought I might get better advice here.

I am very inspired by your posts, LDG. You must have a very big heart to have so many kitties in so small a case (and with DH allergic!). My boyfriend is not severely allergic, or else we likely wouldn't have the two kitties we do have. But it does contribute to his other health problems with asthma. Luckily we've recently gotten him on a new puffer and that seems to be working much better than the last. If I thought I could swing the extra housemates, we probably wouldn't let the allergies/asthma stop us. It's just so many things to think about, and I think I'm trying to decide whether it's possible. I never thought I would even have more than 1 cat, however Moses showed up one day as he had gotten into my garage as a kitten and I took him in and the rest is history. Lucifer is 6 now (wow!) and he wasn't so excited about Moses. But he's a quiet, laid back cat and the age difference might not have been conducive to a wonderful friendship. They get along well enough now and have never fought, but I wouldn't call them the "best of friends". I would have thought Moses might like a pal or 2, he and Lucifer often watch the outdoor kitties through the windows, however one day Moses managed to get out the door while I was going out to feed the ferals and he really surprised me by charging/chasing them off. It was very surprising to see him aggressive and territorial. Anyway, I worry about the integration. Any thoughts?

I think Scruffles (momma) is pretty pregnant. I'm no expert and the last time I had a female cat was when I was a small child, so I don't remember her pregnancy much at all. The only reason I knew she was pregnant is because I noticed how big she is around the mid-section. All of these ferals are small cats, at least to me. Lucifer is a very big cat (and I don't mean he's super fat, he's just big) and even Moses, who is smaller than Luce is still bigger than these guys. I looked it up online to try and figure out how far along she might be and by the big belly it looks like she must be pretty far along. She is very fluffy, so I wouldn't have ever been able to see nipples, and as she has never come near I couldn't have felt her.

I have no idea where she'll have them. The neighbour said it looked like she was moving the last litter to a culvert and I do see them go down in the ditch. We have those huge, deep ditches here with massive culverts under the driveways, but they're not wet as we haven't had much rain the past couple months. I was hoping that maybe if I got this dog house, she might consider nesting there, but I know there's no real guarantee. If I could get to the kittens, there's no reason I couldn't foster them, my hesitation is that I don't have much of a social circle at all, so I worry about how hard it would be to find good homes for the poor things. I don't know anyone right now who will take in a cat, and we have a local no-kill shelter that's full up and can't find homes for their kittens.

I hope I don't seem too negative, my mind is just very thorough when it comes to thinking things out and I'm not very impulsive. I would love to open my home to these poor dears, I'm just trying to plan out how I can make it work in my home. I'm not very good with unpredictable situations ^_^. But I do love animals, and while it's been a lovely summer for these kitties, I'm having a hard time thinking about the approaching winter.

I have a garage, but it's so full of all of our stuff (as well as weekly garbage storage) that I don't think it would be a suitable place for them. It's not insulated, and having to install a kitty access point would also open us up to visits from all the other rural critters around here. There's just too much stuff in the garage they could get into. I also have a half-basement, but it's unfinished, so I'm wondering how much they'd like it (and I would have to keep them separate from the indoor cats, at least to begin with). And the talk about Scruffles (momma) possibly never adapting, I worry about breaking up their little family unit. Is that something I should worry about? I could try to bring them all in if I could catch them, but what if she never adapts? I'd hate to have to put her out all by herself...*sigh* Perhaps I'm overthinking things.

Oh, a note on TNR too. Whether or not I get into a TNR program or simply have to pay to have them neutered/spayed, I'm scared that taking them in for this will demolish any and all trust I've gained. Now, I'm responsible enough not to let this stop me from making the right decision, however I'd love to have the best of both worlds, where they're spayed/neutered and they still like me. What is everyone else's experience with TNR?

Usually, they're mad and leave for 3 days or so. Then they start coming around for food again, and after a while they get over it entirely, some even become much tamer after being fixed. I think if you use a trap, they don't necessarily associate the unpleasantness with you. If you grabbed them with gloves or a catchpole (which I don't recommend at all), they might hold a grudge longer.

No, definitely don't think you're being too negative. One of the first rules of rescue is know your limits. There are always discussions on TCS of "how many cats is too many?" And the answer is the same - the number you can comfortably care for, emotionally and financially. For some of us, that's one. For others, it's 32. For most of us, it's 2 to 4. We can't rescue them all - and that's why TNR exists in the first place. It's the best of a lot of poor options, basically.

And it can be difficult to find them homes, especially if you're not networked. So if getting stuck with them is a concern, best to TNR them. First and foremost, you have to consider your existing pet kitties.

One last thing before getting to the outside cats. For the allergies - I also have asthma. My doc prescribed advair in addition to the inhaler. We don't have insurance any more, and it's very expensive. It was even somewhat expensive with insurance. I don't know the system up there. But it's something your BF may want to ask his doc about, because using the advair MAJORLY cut down on the amount I needed the inhaler. And because I was highly allergic to the cats, I have a lot more (non-medication) tips if you think BF might benefit from them.

OK, all of that said...

The dog house sounds great! It's definitely a great starting place. I'll see if I can find JTBO's post about the shelter she made for her ferals last winter. I think a Finnish winter might be comparable to a Manitoba winter. I know she used a very thick insulation, and it worked quite well.

As to the other subjects/questions:

If you can see she looks pretty pregnant, she's most likely too far along to be spayed anyway. As to what to do about the kittens, there are several schools of thought, and what you choose really depends upon whether you're going to foster them/adopt them (or not).

1) Bring pregnant mom in to have her kittens inside. This is the best way to socialize the kitties, and feral females often don't mind being inside to have their babies and raise them. Sometimes the best thing is to just release them after that: sometimes they learned through their kittens - far more quickly than a normal process of socialization - that people are good, there to help, and inside is OK. That's a coin toss LOL.

2) Let mom have the kittens, and nab them if you can and raise them yourself (the worst of the options IMO).

3) Let mom have the kittens, and let her raise them. Fostering is still an option.

Because of our space issues and the fact that we live in a rural area that is safe for cats (no natural predators, not a lot of cars or traffic), what Gary and I have done when pregnant females that we can't have spayed turned up (which, thankfully, hasn't been often), we let mom make her nest wherever she's going to make it, and raise her kittens however she's going to raise them.

If getting her into a foster network is possible, we've done that. She has her kittens there, and they all get adopted out. Works if mom is young enough.

When that wasn't an option, we let mom have the kittens, and because we can't foster (for a lot of reasons, not just space, but that's a consideration), we let her raise them. We don't try to find the nest - she'll just move them. Feral cat moms know what they're doing, much better than we do. We just keep putting out the food and water, and she brings the kitties to us (the food source) when she's weaning them.

It is natural for moms to push their kitties away at about 12 weeks old. Kitties are still easy to socialize at 8-10 weeks old. So taking them in to socialize them at that age is still an option, if you think you can get them adopted out or don't mind having them live with you until you can find them homes (which gets harder as they get older) - or if you don't mind having them live with you, period.

Socializing them outside is a long process. And then it's even more difficult to adopt them out - because they're not so socialized to "people" as it is that they trust you. And they've never lived inside - and that turns their world completely upside down. Cats that have only lived outside don't know inside is good. That's the point of fostering - you turn outdoor cats into cats that can make good pets. Otherwise the requirement for rehoming them is more difficult.

That said... if having them inside longer term isn't really an option... then you really don't have a choice.

Our experience is that they become more friendly once spayed/neutered. The older feral momma should be spayed once you know the kittens are 10-12 weeks old. The kittens should be spayed/neutered as soon as the vet will do it. It is safe to spay/neuter them as young as 8 weeks, or once they're at least 2 pounds... but vets not familiar with this are usually very hesitant to do it - and have no experience spaying/neutering animals that small anyway. The absolute latest they should be spayed/neutered is six months. We never like spaying/neutering during the worst of winter, because we don't like bringing them inside from below freezing to a warm clinic, then putting them back out to below freezing. So we like to trap them either before it's really cold - or once it warms up to above freezing.

In our experience, after being released from the trap after being spayed/neutered, they're back the next morning or evening for food. The only time "our" ferals have ever disappeared for several days is during storms.

Right now we have six active cats in our TNR colony. We trapped... 11? 15? (I'd have to look it up) this spring. Several of the younger ones went into a local foster network. We haven't seen any of the older ones since the advent of summer. We'll find out once it gets cold how many are still around.

Of the six that are regulars, four are here for each meal every day. One got friendly so fast, he was dumped or a stray or something. He doesn't seem to know what toys are, so I think he was maybe a barn cat somewhere... or just somewhere around really friendly people. The other three we know who the mom is and they were born here. (We did finally trap mom too). Of those siblings, a few months ago, one of them "learned" from watching me interact with Baloo (the friendly guy), and she started rubbing around my legs (and making it impossible to walk outside to put food out. ). But she warmed up to hands and petting pretty quickly, and she started talking, and now is just the cutest sweetest thing ever. (All black with a little dot of white on her chest. Her name, of course, is Little Dot). I really want her and Baloo in homes. But they're not cute young kittens anymore, and I can't say they've lived inside, so I can't just "advertise" these cats for adoption portraying them as great indoor pets.

Personally, I find myself worrying about the ferals more than the inside kitties.

But I agree with Willowy - using a live trap is the best way to do it. They don't associate you with the process. And sterilizing sooner rather than later just helps the process. They lose all those hormones that make them spray and be aggressive, and they "friendly up" more quickly without all that craziness. The males don't wander off because they're looking for females, and the females aren't howling because they're in heat. Just like it's SO much better to get your pets sterilized asap, it's better for them, for you - for everyone - to get the ferals sterilized asap.

Finally, as to your question about Moses. Charging off other cats is totally normal. Feral cats tend to be more social than many indoor kitties are - they're used to be around other cats, some of whom come and go, and sharing a food source.

Cats are totally territorial animals by nature. When introducing cats to each other, it's a process exactly because of that. We never had a separate room to use for socializing or introducing new cats - but last year, when we had to bring in Chumley, we actually rented a trailer so he COULD be separate while we went through the process of socialization and him living inside before we started bringing him over here to slowly introduce him into this space. He went into the trailer in May, pending a spot in the foster network. That opened up a month later. We dropped him off at the vet to get his distemper shot (we don't bother with distemper for ferals, because it requires a 3-week follow-up, and we're not trapping again after 3 weeks for that) and to check him for FIV/FeLV. Well, he turned up positive for FIV. So the foster network couldn't take him. So back to the trailer he went. I think it was another month before we began bringing him over here. We focused on scent-swapping between him and our cats for that month. Then we brought him over for 15, maybe 20 minutes. Not to meet the other cats, but just to check out some of the space. We brought him over for a little longer each day. I think it was 3 weeks/a month, then he just never went back to the trailer.

So the process didn't focus on the cats meeting each other so much as it was introducing him to the scent of our cats, and getting our cats used to his scent being in their space and associating that scent with "good" things (treats, brushes, etc.).

Thanks again, just soaking up all the helpful info and advice. Really grateful.

I made some calls and discovered that my local animal control officer has traps available for renting, so I'm glad to know that there is a local option for that at least. As it turns out the local animal control officer is actually the head of the Local Humane Society no-kill shelter in this area, so I think it's safe to assume that he'd be a good contact.

On the note with my boyfriend, Advair is exactly the medication his doctor just started him on. It is working much better than his last inhaler (Flovent) in maintaining his asthma. His use of the regular puffer has decreased by 80-90% and he's feeling much better, which is great. The Advair is really expensive ($162), but luckily we now have insurance so it's only $10 a pop.

Now, today I saw all 3 of them and Scruffles (momma) looked different to me. I can't be 100% sure, but it looked as though she wasn't as big as yesterday. Her belly still seems fuller than normal, but it didn't look like it was protruding out on either side like it has appeared. It's fuller in a low-hanging way, but I'm still thinking not as big. And she laid down after she had a snack and I could see her tummy and got my first glimpse of the nipples, but I was quite a ways away. Is it possible she's given birth? I mean, I just saw her yesterday and she looks different to me. Does the belly drop or relax or anything near the end? I don't want to go snooping around in the ditch for kittens, but I was really hoping that I'd get this dog house before she had her litter so I'd have a chance of enticing her into having them somewhere I could see and/or have more control.

I'm a bit frazzled at the thought of her having the kittens already as I had been leaning towards trying to find a way to bring her in to have them in here, but it may not be an option now. I will watch her closely from now on and see if I can discern any body changes. I definitely don't want to separate kittens from their mother before they're weaned. I do however feel that it is much preferable to try and find homes for them than to leave them outside to join the group. I know kitties love the outdoors (except Manitoba winters) but I would really love it if they all had a home.

Right now I think I'll have to have a discussion with the boyfriend and see whether or not we can feasibly bring these kitties into our home. I'd feel more secure having the spaying/neutering done if I was able to bring them home to a house so I could watch them, of course that could make the transition more difficult. For people who have brought ferals inside for a 'forever home': do you keep them as indoor only? Or do you do indoor/outdoor? My 2 current cats are indoor only. I've always had indoor/outdoor as a kid and didn't like when they would wander away for a day or so. I prefer to keep my boys inside. I think it could make it hard having some cats allowed outside while others aren't.

Like I said, I have an unfinished basement that is about 400 square feet. I thought maybe I could set up an area down there that would be cozy for cats? We basically just have washer/dryer/freezer/furnace, etc. down there. Is a basement an okay place for kitties? There are four windows that afford a pretty good ground view of outside. Moses loves to hang out down there in summer while we have our window ACs in the house.

Another reason I'm leaning toward adopting them (other than my heart is already adoring them) is that this is our first home and we're looking at getting something bigger in the next year or so as we've been outgrowing this place for a while. If they stayed outdoors, eventually we won't be living here and there's no knowing what the next owner would do. (plus, with a bigger house, more cats would seem more manageable, no? )

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

Oh, a note on TNR too. Whether or not I get into a TNR program or simply have to pay to have them neutered/spayed, I'm scared that taking them in for this will demolish any and all trust I've gained. Now, I'm responsible enough not to let this stop me from making the right decision, however I'd love to have the best of both worlds, where they're spayed/neutered and they still like me. What is everyone else's experience with TNR?

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I understand your fears.. I felt that way myself... but my ferals seem to like me even more now that they are all fixed and vaccinated and healthy.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

I made some calls and discovered that my local animal control officer has traps available for renting, so I'm glad to know that there is a local option for that at least. As it turns out the local animal control officer is actually the head of the Local Humane Society no-kill shelter in this area, so I think it's safe to assume that he'd be a good contact.

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Sounds like an excellent contact, in fact.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

Now, today I saw all 3 of them and Scruffles (momma) looked different to me. I can't be 100% sure, but it looked as though she wasn't as big as yesterday. Her belly still seems fuller than normal, but it didn't look like it was protruding out on either side like it has appeared. It's fuller in a low-hanging way, but I'm still thinking not as big. And she laid down after she had a snack and I could see her tummy and got my first glimpse of the nipples, but I was quite a ways away. Is it possible she's given birth? I mean, I just saw her yesterday and she looks different to me.

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I don't have any experience with this.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

I'm a bit frazzled at the thought of her having the kittens already as I had been leaning towards trying to find a way to bring her in to have them in here, but it may not be an option now. I will watch her closely from now on and see if I can discern any body changes. I definitely don't want to separate kittens from their mother before they're weaned. I do however feel that it is much preferable to try and find homes for them than to leave them outside to join the group. I know kitties love the outdoors (except Manitoba winters) but I would really love it if they all had a home.

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I think it would be wonderful if you could find a way to make it work to foster them and find them homes!

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

Right now I think I'll have to have a discussion with the boyfriend and see whether or not we can feasibly bring these kitties into our home. I'd feel more secure having the spaying/neutering done if I was able to bring them home to a house so I could watch them, of course that could make the transition more difficult.

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This is why we board them at the vet overnight if they're males, and for two if they're female. Other people bring them home from the vet in a large dog crate, and put food, water, and litter in there, and then release them after a day or two. Some keep females 72 hours before releasing them. One thing you don't want to do is release them into a room if you plan to then release them back outside. Getting them back in a trap or crate can be quite the chore and insanely stressful for everyone.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

For people who have brought ferals inside for a 'forever home': do you keep them as indoor only? Or do you do indoor/outdoor? My 2 current cats are indoor only. I've always had indoor/outdoor as a kid and didn't like when they would wander away for a day or so. I prefer to keep my boys inside. I think it could make it hard having some cats allowed outside while others aren't.

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I think most of us who've brought ferals inside to become pets keep them inside only. The process of socialization, depending on age, can be months or more. What's the point in letting them back out, exposed to all the dangers out there, once you've been through all it took to turn them into a happy pet that enjoys the comforts of a home and trusts you? In fact... none of our cats has EVER tried to get outside. We were so worried they'd try to bolt, but once they realized they were getting food regularly, not getting rained on, not being cold, not being too hot, not being bitten by fleas and bugs - and then on top of it when that "switch" flipped and they realized - hey - these big scary monsters not only aren't scary, they are my slaves - I'm pretty sure they decided it was much nicer inside than out. They seem quite happy to WATCH the weather, rather than be in it.

There are several people here that built large outdoor enclosures for their ferals. This was primarily because they have more than could comfortably live in their homes; also because they were sick of TNRing on their properties and releasing the cats only to have them turn up having been poisoned, coming home really sick with something, finding them hit by a vehicle on the road, or coming home attacked by something, etc. If that were an option for us, that's what we'd do. But we don't own the property, and the owner won't give us permission.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

Like I said, I have an unfinished basement that is about 400 square feet. I thought maybe I could set up an area down there that would be cozy for cats? We basically just have washer/dryer/freezer/furnace, etc. down there. Is a basement an okay place for kitties? There are four windows that afford a pretty good ground view of outside. Moses loves to hang out down there in summer while we have our window ACs in the house.

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If there's a way for them to sit at the windows to watch outside, get sun... I think it could make a great foster kitty room. You'd need to make sure there aren't exposed rafters - cats can and do get up and disappear in there. (A TCS member, while still new to ferals, released one in her home. It had high ceilings with beams. The cat climbed up to the rafters. She couldn't get her back down. So she put a litter box and food and water up there for her. She lived up there for two years before coming down. The cat was named... Rafters LOL). You have to make sure there aren't holes around pipes that cats/kittens can squeeze through. The washer and dryer might freak the cats out at first... but they'd get used to it. Just about any inside noise freaks out a non-kitten feral cat anyway. The key to happy cats in a smaller space is to create lots of vertical space. And otherwise ensure it's safe. Cats have flexible collar bones, so if they can get their head through an opening, they can get through the opening.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Althena

Another reason I'm leaning toward adopting them (other than my heart is already adoring them) is that this is our first home and we're looking at getting something bigger in the next year or so as we've been outgrowing this place for a while. If they stayed outdoors, eventually we won't be living here and there's no knowing what the next owner would do. (plus, with a bigger house, more cats would seem more manageable, no?

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Well, you can take the outdoor cats with you when you move. There is a way to successfully move outdoor cats (and just bringing them with you and releasing them is NOT it). If we moved, we'd have bring the six regulars. Of course... having them inside with you is much less stressful in the long run.

Welcome to TCS and thank you for caring for the feral cats . You have already have wonderful, wonderful excellent advice here . I really wouldn't worry about putting momma cat outside alone and away from her family. There is a good chance there are more feral cats elsewhere that she mingles with too. These ferals have built in survival techniques that are so instinctive and they do just fine solo too. My only concern now, is you say you think she might have had the kittens.......if so, and you trap her for sterilization, the newborns will most likely pass. You could wait a few weeks, but then you will have more kittens that will need to be spayed/neutered. Unfortunately, as trappers of feral colonies, this is one of the very sad parts about what we do. You never know if that female cat has a newborn litter somewhere. .... it is a sad fact. And if you do move, you can take the feral's with you. I have three regulars that I will be taking with us when we move. They rely on me everyday now and I would not want to abandon them... I wish you all the best with your wonderful effort here to help this family of cats.

Hi all! I'm sorry, I have had company staying with me and haven't had time for the computer. But the house is clear once again!

Anyhow, updates: it would appear that I was mistaken and it's actually 2 females and 1 male. It's baby kitten (formerly aka Noah) that's confused me. I thought it was a he, but it looks to be a she. I haven't gotten to pick her(?) up, but from decent glances there do not appear to be any boy bits. She's fluffy like her momma so it's a little tough.

I'm still pretty sure Momma's had her litter (estimating Sept.7) but I haven't seen kittens. She looks to be nesting near my neighbour though and I haven't wanted to poke around and possibly provoke her to move them. I do see her every day though and she seems to be doing well. Weather's all over the place, it was a wicked heat wave last week and has now dropped more than 20 degrees (Celsius).

I'm pretty much decided on bring Scamp and kitten (maybe Stella now that she's a she?) in to live with us and see how they adjust. It will have to wait until after next week as I have more company coming and they'll be helping me redo my basement stairs, so it'll be too crazy to have new kitties inside. I'm going to set up an area in the basement for them to get them started so they're separate from indoor kitties and I'll have time to get the proper vet visits in. I'm not really sure how to go about catching them and bringing them in though. Would greatly appreciate advice on that one. Do they need to be kept separate even from each other, or would it help them to be together during the transition? I don't think I need a trap as they let me pet them on the deck and Scamp will let me pick him up, though it could be tricky nabbing them both at the same time.

I'm still up in the air about Momma cat. I feel terrible taking her family in without her, but she has the kittens and she's just SO feral. I don't want to trap her for bringing her in or sterilization until I know a litter is no longer nursing. I'm worried though, as I spoke with my neighbour this weekend and she was not aware that Momma was preggers again. This put her off, so obviously she doesn't want to take in another litter this year. Which I understand. But when we discussed the possibility of getting Momma spayed (as she obviously needs to be) she said that she doesn't think it can be done. Apparently when she phoned our local vet, they gave her a flat out 'No' when she asked if they would do it. She also has a veterinarian friend (lucky) who works at a clinic who used to do TNR but no longer does it. I thought, 'Great, she can get her friend to agree' but apparently not. Now she's mentioned that Momma might need to be trapped and euthanised. I cannot express just how much I am NOT a fan of that idea. I'm not sure if she's just throwing out hypotheticals or what, but I feel like I've got to get moving on this now in order to avoid drastic measures taken by someone else.

It's all assumption anyhow as none of us has ever trapped her, so it's an unknown. I've talked to the nearest TNR shelter and I'm going to speak with the manager of the program tomorrow. The girl on the phone advised me that it might be best to try to find the kittens and bring them and momma in sooner rather than later as they will be much harder to trap later on. I'm still so nervous about trying to find homes for them though. And also a bit stressed at the idea of 5 cats plus a litter of kittens all fitting in this house. Eek! Any and all advice is welcome!

Well, I have no idea why the vet said they couldn't neuter her. Maybe because they refuse to work with ferals or something. Momma would HAVE to be trapped, and there isn't any reason she can't be tranquilized while in the trap. That's how our vets do it with the "feral" ferals. Odd.

Anyway... with all you've got going on, I wouldn't worry about getting anyone inside until things calm down a little bit! We use traps for the cats. You were worried about the "trust factor." The trust factor between picking up a cat and putting it in a crate, and trapping a cat are completely different. Picking up a cat and putting it in a crate, they KNOW you're responsible for their confinement and subsequent torture at the vet. In the trap, it's not your fault.

The best is to have everything set up and ready, trap them, get them neutered, and release them into their readied safe area.

As to mom and the kittens... given you can't take them in now anyway, best to just leave it and see how things develop. If you're putting food out regularly, if she'll come by to eat, she'll bring her kittens when she begins transitioning them to food. This should be, if I remember correctly, around five weeks. So you've apparently got a couple of weeks to decide what to do.

So you feel I should trap them and take them straight to the vet to be spayed/neutered before ever bringing them into the house? I thought maybe giving them time to adjust inside would make them more amenable when it came time for the visit to the vet...however I suppose making them "amenable" could take some time? I'm not sure baby kitten is 4 months old yet, but my neighbour will know for sure as she took in the rest of the litter.

I'm always so stressed when it comes to neuter time as I worry about the poor kitties' anxiety. It will probably be very frightening for them. The program shows that it may be possible to bring more than 1 cat in a day. Do you think it would be a good idea to have Scamp and kitten done the same day? It would be more convenient as it's more than an hour away as long as they're safe recuperating in the same space.

I would do them the same day if possible. And I really wouldn't worry about them being comfortable inside before having them spayed/neutered. I know of no advantage to it. In fact, in our experience, after all the stress and trauma of travel, the vet, anesthesia... it helps them adjust to being inside.

For health reasons for one of our cats and for space reasons once, we weren't able to quarantine kitties at home. We trapped, took them to the vet. They were treated for parasites, neutered, given rabies vaccination, any other wounds/issues were treated, and we had to leave them in boarding for 10 days (to make sure they weren't going to get sick with something that could be passed on to our immune-compromised kitty). By the time they got here, they were just grateful to be out of there. It was strange and scary... but I think that trip to the vet, even if they don't stay in boarding, makes the transition even just a tad easier.

It's certainly FAR easier than having them at home, putting them through the trauma of being crated (again), where you are definitely responsible for what's happening to them. Trapping and taking them to the vet, you're then rescuing them by bringing them back, and you skip that intermediate step where they're still not entirely happy about being inside.

It can take months (or more) for a cat that's never lived inside to be comfortable inside. And they're FAR happier without those hormones in them.

I really urge you to take them from outside to the vet, then to home, whether you use a crate or a trap.

Okay, situation:

I have been in touch with the manager of the TNR program. She has 'booked' me for 2 slots on Sept. 26th. It's not ideal, but that's their MO and it seems like my best option. They are only doing it until the end of Sept. and next week would be impossible for me, so the only 3 remaining dates were the 26th, 27th & 29th. *Sigh*

So now I have what looks to be the insurmountable task of trapping the 2 correct cats the night before. Is this even doable? I'm feeling all stressed for the anxiety it will cause them (if I can catch them). Plus worrying that I'll even be able to get it done with that clock ticking down on me. Also fretting as the lady said they have a strict policy that if the cats bite one of the technicians that cat will have to be euthanized and tested for rabies. I understand this and she assured me that out of hundreds of cats each year it only happens maybe 2 times a year, but my tender heart aches at the possibility.

Is this possible? Can I trap them? My local animal control officer said he would lend me the traps, but his attitude was very much "Good luck with that". He sighed the entire phone call I think I really need to form a plan of action. Please, any and all help, advice and encouragement are greatly appreciated.

Also, I apparently need to find kennels for them both that will fit litter boxes and food inside for their trip home... Would animal taxis be fine if I'm taking them home just to release them in a controlled environment inside? I haven't really let on to the TNR people that I'm planning on trying to adopt them afterward...

Hi all.

Haven't posted in a long time, forgive me if dredging up an old post is against policy. I just wanted to post an update.

I managed to catch Scamp and Stella and had them spayed/neutered and vaccinated on October 3rd. They adjusted to the basement pretty well, and while I thought I had more to worry about with little Stella recovering from her spay procedure, poor Scamp was the one who had troubles. The Friday after his neutering he started vomiting and lost his appetite by Saturday. Of course, being in Canada, it had to be the Thanksgiving long weekend with the vets closed til Tuesday. We nursed him through with some advice as he seemed fine in spirits and got him into the vet on the Tuesday. After a slew of tests (that kind of broke our bank ^_^ and an overnight stay nothing could be explained, but the next day he started eating again. We were very relieved! Now he's been fine ever since, eating like the little hog he is. ^_^

We introduced them to our other cats, Moses & Lucifer. Moses took to them right away and spends most of his time hanging with the 'new crowd'. Lucifer was not so 'tickled' about his new housemates, but it only amounted to a little hissing and growling. No fights so far and the 'old man' (Lucifer) has mellowed and is back to his lazy life as king kitty. I feel I've been very lucky that things went as well as they did merging the kitties.

You may recall, I said there was also a 'momma' cat, Scruffles, who I didn't want to trap as I suspected she had a litter of kittens out there somewhere. Turns out I was right. My neighbour discovered them in her dilapidated barn last week and trapped them (4 total) over the weekend. I estimate they're about 7-8 weeks old and weaned. My boyfriend and I are going over tonight to get them as we are better able to foster them for now. My neighbour is pregnant and it's better for her to stay away from feral kitties and their litter, plus apparently they only have one room in their house with a door (the bathroom). We have a small house as well, but at least we have doors, and since I'm on such a roll with all these cats I figure the more the merrier! Hopefully we'll get them socialized and find good homes for them.

Our last task is deciding what to do with Scruffles. The TNR program I used is closed down for the winter and they suggested it would be best to wait until spring to get her done. I have a well-insulated kitty house outside for her and feed her twice a day. She's here a lot as she must know I have Scamp and Stella. I wish I could bring her in, but she's very shy. We'll see how the winter goes and play it by ear. I don't want anything to happen to her, but she must be a tough old gal as she's made it through several Manitoba winters so far.

I just want to thank all of you for your kind words and very helpful advice. I used to think I would only ever have 1 cat at a time, then we met Moses and figured out how to have 2. Now we're suddenly a 4 cat household. You think you make these decisions with your head, but in times like these you realize it's your heart that rules. I feel a great sense of peace and relief providing a home for these sweet kitties though and I only hope things go as well with the kittens. I can't help but be excited to play with some adorable fuzzballs for a while!

Thank you everyone, this forum is truly a wonderful place.

WHAT great work. Aw.... just huge congratulations! I'm so glad you posted an update!

And what loves you are for fostering those babies!

As to Scruffles... you can either talk to your vet to see if they'd do it for cost or anything like that. But I would not try to bring her inside. Once they're a few years old, they really don't adapt well. Sometimes on their own they'll decide they want inside, and you'll know those signals if she gets to that point. But I wouldn't try to force her into the inside life.

If your vet won't work with you on cost for spaying her, just get her in as soon as the TNR program is back up for the season. We usually don't TNR during the winter. It's quite cold here, and we don't want to have to take a cat that's acclimated outside, put them through surgery, keeping them in for recovery, and then shocking their systems by putting them back out in the cold. We wait until things warm up just a little, but try to get them before mating season actually starts.

Such great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey everyone!

Well, end of November and I've still got the kittens (5 now as there was one that had evaded the neighbour and we finally trapped her this past weekend!). We had been counting on the neighbour to find good homes as she has a much wider social network, however that has not really panned out. Now we have to get proactive or else I will fall so deeply in love with these babies that I'll never be able to let them go (I know, I know, but 9 cats will just be TOO much for me ^_^).

I'm writing up a blurb for an ad that will be put up at my mother's school. I think I might already have 3 good takers (people I know that work there) but it's very early stages and I know it's not always easy to find homes even though they're so adorable. I want to find the absolute BEST homes I can as I already feel like a mama. At least with an ad at my mom's school, I know some of the people and she knows more, so it wouldn't be strangers and with them working with my mom, follow-up would be possible. I'd love to get some feedback on the ad, let me know if you think it's right. I'm trying to find a balance so that it's attractive to people, but also cautions those who aren't ready for responsibility. Please any feedback would be more than welcome!

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AD:

Loving Kittens Looking for Forever Homes

These 5 adorable kittens are currently seeking loving, dedicated people to welcome them into their families. They’re curious, friendly and very playful, and they always enjoy cuddling up for a good nap. They would be happy to be adopted in pairs/groups if possible as they love to play with each other. They are currently fostered in a home with adult cats and love to play with them (as long as the big kitties are in a patient mood). They’re looking for someone to take good care of them and give them a warm, loving home for the rest of their lives. They were born September 7^th, are litter-box trained and they have been de-wormed. Adopters interested should be prepared to provide the proper veterinary care (spay/neuter & vaccinations) so that they can live long, healthy, happy lives. These cute little fuzzballs are absolute darlings and are sure to bring joy to your home. If you think your home is perfect for one (or more!) of these sweet kittens then we would love to hear from you and learn more about you. Please feel free to send us an email (xxx). My name is Stephanie and my mother is xxx. Please don’t hesitate to head over to the store and speak with her as well. We look forward to finding the perfect homes!

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I'm wondering if I should mention at all that they were born outside to a feral mother and that they've been socialized or if that's necessary. I know you should keep it positive and seeing how well socialized they are, I'm not sure it's important (at least in the ad). Really looking forward to some feedback!