Looking for some guidance and/or advice

Do you have a barn or building of any type on your property that they can seek shelter in? If not maybe provide some sort of winter shelter... I'm looking into that myself right now for my ferals. I read somewhere that if you have an old solar pool cover you can use it over a cat box to help provided heat during the winter. I would look for a TNR program in your area and see if you can get them trapped and altered asap... with Momma being pregnant you may have to wait a while for her, unless she's not too far along. I wish you the best and I know you will get lots of valuable advice here. Thank you for taking care of them!

First of all, welcome to TCS!

And yes, we understand that worry. I live down in NJ, and fret excessively about the ferals. Of course, that's partly how we wound up with 8 cats inside with us. And we live in an RV, and I'm allergic to cats.

OK, some hard questions first.

How pregnant is she? I know this is a VERY difficult topic, and we all feel differently about it, and we all respect each other's decisions. But a lot of us who TNR (trap-neuter-return) choose to spay if the moms aren't too far along. It's heartbreaking, for sure. But there are already so many homeless cats. It's something to think long and hard about.

How allergic is DH? If he's not already taking something, is he willing to consider allergy medication? I found that ceterizine (zyrtec) really DOES work for pet allergies (it's the only one that claims to cover those as well). Would fostering the kittens then getting them adopted out potentially be an option if spaying her despite the pregnancy isn't?

Because you're right... making it through a Manitoba winter will likely prove quite difficult for those babies.

Momma cat sounds like she'd never be happy inside. While we can help with lots of ideas and suggestions for how to socialize ferals, because it CAN be done (!!), if they're truly feral and older than three, it's just tough on them.

For the others, if bringing them in isn't an option, there are things you can do.

Oh - an aside - cats make better mousers if properly fed.

I take it you've searched - and there aren't rescues or low-cost spay/neuter options? You'd have to pay full fare yourself? That's how we started, but our vet ended up giving us a break once we were large volume.

But you definitely need to start with getting them sterilized. They do not need to be socialized at all to do this. You just need a vet willing to work with you. I don't know where you live or what options there are. But if there's more than one vet, try calling around. I don't know that you're shopping for price so much as you're shopping for someone who cares. Or one that can lend you a trap. I don't know how things are up there, but here the rural vets all have them. We ended up buying one. But using a live trap is the absolute best way of doing it. And if the vet you're working with is willing, the way they work it for us is we just drop off the cat in the trap, and they work in the spay or neuter when they can, as soon as they can. They don't charge us for boarding any more, but we used to pay to keep the animal there for a day (if male), and two days (if female). Of course, make sure they know to use dissolving stitches for the spay!

We live in an RV with no garage or anything, so we had no place to leave a trap with a cat for a short recuperation period before releasing them. So I toss these ideas out there for you.

Do you have a garage or any outside structure? Anything that might provide them some shelter? If not, no worries, there are still quick and easy solutions. You'll still need the shovel though.

But this is a good starting place... and feel free to ask away.

I started looking up threads on shelters. Feralvilla used to sell the plans so you could make them yourself; I don't think they do anymore (don't know if they ship to Canada or how much the shipping would be if they do). You can contact Indyferal (http://www.indyferal.org) to ask, maybe. ?? Ok, I just checked. You'd probably need to contact Feral Villa - Indyferal isn't selling them anymore. I think I knew that. Here's that link: http://www.feralvilla.com/

The indyferal site has a great TNR resource section anyway, so I'm leaving the link here.

Anyway, here is the most recent thread on TCS discussing shelters and feeding stations: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=234461

I must say - those cable drums are a great idea. With the holes at the end made larger if necessary and stuffed with straw, they'd be great.

Straw is the BEST insulator for kitties, whatever kind of shelter you make.

And the gabbing aside, this thread has good ideas, information, and links for winter shelters: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=220795

Usually, they're mad and leave for 3 days or so. Then they start coming around for food again, and after a while they get over it entirely, some even become much tamer after being fixed. I think if you use a trap, they don't necessarily associate the unpleasantness with you. If you grabbed them with gloves or a catchpole (which I don't recommend at all), they might hold a grudge longer.

No, definitely don't think you're being too negative. One of the first rules of rescue is know your limits. There are always discussions on TCS of "how many cats is too many?" And the answer is the same - the number you can comfortably care for, emotionally and financially. For some of us, that's one. For others, it's 32. For most of us, it's 2 to 4. We can't rescue them all - and that's why TNR exists in the first place. It's the best of a lot of poor options, basically.

And it can be difficult to find them homes, especially if you're not networked. So if getting stuck with them is a concern, best to TNR them. First and foremost, you have to consider your existing pet kitties.

One last thing before getting to the outside cats. For the allergies - I also have asthma. My doc prescribed advair in addition to the inhaler. We don't have insurance any more, and it's very expensive. It was even somewhat expensive with insurance. I don't know the system up there. But it's something your BF may want to ask his doc about, because using the advair MAJORLY cut down on the amount I needed the inhaler. And because I was highly allergic to the cats, I have a lot more (non-medication) tips if you think BF might benefit from them.

OK, all of that said...

The dog house sounds great! It's definitely a great starting place. I'll see if I can find JTBO's post about the shelter she made for her ferals last winter. I think a Finnish winter might be comparable to a Manitoba winter. I know she used a very thick insulation, and it worked quite well.

As to the other subjects/questions:

If you can see she looks pretty pregnant, she's most likely too far along to be spayed anyway. As to what to do about the kittens, there are several schools of thought, and what you choose really depends upon whether you're going to foster them/adopt them (or not).

1) Bring pregnant mom in to have her kittens inside. This is the best way to socialize the kitties, and feral females often don't mind being inside to have their babies and raise them. Sometimes the best thing is to just release them after that: sometimes they learned through their kittens - far more quickly than a normal process of socialization - that people are good, there to help, and inside is OK. That's a coin toss LOL.

2) Let mom have the kittens, and nab them if you can and raise them yourself (the worst of the options IMO).

3) Let mom have the kittens, and let her raise them. Fostering is still an option.

Because of our space issues and the fact that we live in a rural area that is safe for cats (no natural predators, not a lot of cars or traffic), what Gary and I have done when pregnant females that we can't have spayed turned up (which, thankfully, hasn't been often), we let mom make her nest wherever she's going to make it, and raise her kittens however she's going to raise them.

If getting her into a foster network is possible, we've done that. She has her kittens there, and they all get adopted out. Works if mom is young enough.

When that wasn't an option, we let mom have the kittens, and because we can't foster (for a lot of reasons, not just space, but that's a consideration), we let her raise them. We don't try to find the nest - she'll just move them. Feral cat moms know what they're doing, much better than we do. We just keep putting out the food and water, and she brings the kitties to us (the food source) when she's weaning them.

It is natural for moms to push their kitties away at about 12 weeks old. Kitties are still easy to socialize at 8-10 weeks old. So taking them in to socialize them at that age is still an option, if you think you can get them adopted out or don't mind having them live with you until you can find them homes (which gets harder as they get older) - or if you don't mind having them live with you, period.

Socializing them outside is a long process. And then it's even more difficult to adopt them out - because they're not so socialized to "people" as it is that they trust you. And they've never lived inside - and that turns their world completely upside down. Cats that have only lived outside don't know inside is good. That's the point of fostering - you turn outdoor cats into cats that can make good pets. Otherwise the requirement for rehoming them is more difficult.

That said... if having them inside longer term isn't really an option... then you really don't have a choice.

Our experience is that they become more friendly once spayed/neutered. The older feral momma should be spayed once you know the kittens are 10-12 weeks old. The kittens should be spayed/neutered as soon as the vet will do it. It is safe to spay/neuter them as young as 8 weeks, or once they're at least 2 pounds... but vets not familiar with this are usually very hesitant to do it - and have no experience spaying/neutering animals that small anyway. The absolute latest they should be spayed/neutered is six months. We never like spaying/neutering during the worst of winter, because we don't like bringing them inside from below freezing to a warm clinic, then putting them back out to below freezing. So we like to trap them either before it's really cold - or once it warms up to above freezing.

In our experience, after being released from the trap after being spayed/neutered, they're back the next morning or evening for food. The only time "our" ferals have ever disappeared for several days is during storms.

Right now we have six active cats in our TNR colony. We trapped... 11? 15? (I'd have to look it up) this spring. Several of the younger ones went into a local foster network. We haven't seen any of the older ones since the advent of summer. We'll find out once it gets cold how many are still around.

Of the six that are regulars, four are here for each meal every day. One got friendly so fast, he was dumped or a stray or something. He doesn't seem to know what toys are, so I think he was maybe a barn cat somewhere... or just somewhere around really friendly people. The other three we know who the mom is and they were born here. (We did finally trap mom too). Of those siblings, a few months ago, one of them "learned" from watching me interact with Baloo (the friendly guy), and she started rubbing around my legs (and making it impossible to walk outside to put food out. ). But she warmed up to hands and petting pretty quickly, and she started talking, and now is just the cutest sweetest thing ever. (All black with a little dot of white on her chest. Her name, of course, is Little Dot). I really want her and Baloo in homes. But they're not cute young kittens anymore, and I can't say they've lived inside, so I can't just "advertise" these cats for adoption portraying them as great indoor pets.

Personally, I find myself worrying about the ferals more than the inside kitties.

But I agree with Willowy - using a live trap is the best way to do it. They don't associate you with the process. And sterilizing sooner rather than later just helps the process. They lose all those hormones that make them spray and be aggressive, and they "friendly up" more quickly without all that craziness. The males don't wander off because they're looking for females, and the females aren't howling because they're in heat. Just like it's SO much better to get your pets sterilized asap, it's better for them, for you - for everyone - to get the ferals sterilized asap.

Finally, as to your question about Moses. Charging off other cats is totally normal. Feral cats tend to be more social than many indoor kitties are - they're used to be around other cats, some of whom come and go, and sharing a food source.

Cats are totally territorial animals by nature. When introducing cats to each other, it's a process exactly because of that. We never had a separate room to use for socializing or introducing new cats - but last year, when we had to bring in Chumley, we actually rented a trailer so he COULD be separate while we went through the process of socialization and him living inside before we started bringing him over here to slowly introduce him into this space. He went into the trailer in May, pending a spot in the foster network. That opened up a month later. We dropped him off at the vet to get his distemper shot (we don't bother with distemper for ferals, because it requires a 3-week follow-up, and we're not trapping again after 3 weeks for that) and to check him for FIV/FeLV. Well, he turned up positive for FIV. So the foster network couldn't take him. So back to the trailer he went. I think it was another month before we began bringing him over here. We focused on scent-swapping between him and our cats for that month. Then we brought him over for 15, maybe 20 minutes. Not to meet the other cats, but just to check out some of the space. We brought him over for a little longer each day. I think it was 3 weeks/a month, then he just never went back to the trailer.

So the process didn't focus on the cats meeting each other so much as it was introducing him to the scent of our cats, and getting our cats used to his scent being in their space and associating that scent with "good" things (treats, brushes, etc.).

I understand your fears.. I felt that way myself... but my ferals seem to like me even more now that they are all fixed and vaccinated and healthy.

Sounds like an excellent contact, in fact.

I don't have any experience with this.

I think it would be wonderful if you could find a way to make it work to foster them and find them homes!

This is why we board them at the vet overnight if they're males, and for two if they're female. Other people bring them home from the vet in a large dog crate, and put food, water, and litter in there, and then release them after a day or two. Some keep females 72 hours before releasing them. One thing you don't want to do is release them into a room if you plan to then release them back outside. Getting them back in a trap or crate can be quite the chore and insanely stressful for everyone.

I think most of us who've brought ferals inside to become pets keep them inside only. The process of socialization, depending on age, can be months or more. What's the point in letting them back out, exposed to all the dangers out there, once you've been through all it took to turn them into a happy pet that enjoys the comforts of a home and trusts you? In fact... none of our cats has EVER tried to get outside. We were so worried they'd try to bolt, but once they realized they were getting food regularly, not getting rained on, not being cold, not being too hot, not being bitten by fleas and bugs - and then on top of it when that "switch" flipped and they realized - hey - these big scary monsters not only aren't scary, they are my slaves - I'm pretty sure they decided it was much nicer inside than out. They seem quite happy to WATCH the weather, rather than be in it.

There are several people here that built large outdoor enclosures for their ferals. This was primarily because they have more than could comfortably live in their homes; also because they were sick of TNRing on their properties and releasing the cats only to have them turn up having been poisoned, coming home really sick with something, finding them hit by a vehicle on the road, or coming home attacked by something, etc. If that were an option for us, that's what we'd do. But we don't own the property, and the owner won't give us permission.

If there's a way for them to sit at the windows to watch outside, get sun... I think it could make a great foster kitty room. You'd need to make sure there aren't exposed rafters - cats can and do get up and disappear in there. (A TCS member, while still new to ferals, released one in her home. It had high ceilings with beams. The cat climbed up to the rafters. She couldn't get her back down. So she put a litter box and food and water up there for her. She lived up there for two years before coming down. The cat was named... Rafters LOL). You have to make sure there aren't holes around pipes that cats/kittens can squeeze through. The washer and dryer might freak the cats out at first... but they'd get used to it. Just about any inside noise freaks out a non-kitten feral cat anyway. The key to happy cats in a smaller space is to create lots of vertical space. And otherwise ensure it's safe. Cats have flexible collar bones, so if they can get their head through an opening, they can get through the opening.

Well, you can take the outdoor cats with you when you move. There is a way to successfully move outdoor cats (and just bringing them with you and releasing them is NOT it). If we moved, we'd have bring the six regulars. Of course... having them inside with you is much less stressful in the long run.

Welcome to TCS and thank you for caring for the feral cats . You have already have wonderful, wonderful excellent advice here . I really wouldn't worry about putting momma cat outside alone and away from her family. There is a good chance there are more feral cats elsewhere that she mingles with too. These ferals have built in survival techniques that are so instinctive and they do just fine solo too. My only concern now, is you say you think she might have had the kittens.......if so, and you trap her for sterilization, the newborns will most likely pass. You could wait a few weeks, but then you will have more kittens that will need to be spayed/neutered. Unfortunately, as trappers of feral colonies, this is one of the very sad parts about what we do. You never know if that female cat has a newborn litter somewhere. .... it is a sad fact. And if you do move, you can take the feral's with you. I have three regulars that I will be taking with us when we move. They rely on me everyday now and I would not want to abandon them... I wish you all the best with your wonderful effort here to help this family of cats.

Well, I have no idea why the vet said they couldn't neuter her. Maybe because they refuse to work with ferals or something. Momma would HAVE to be trapped, and there isn't any reason she can't be tranquilized while in the trap. That's how our vets do it with the "feral" ferals. Odd.

Anyway... with all you've got going on, I wouldn't worry about getting anyone inside until things calm down a little bit! We use traps for the cats. You were worried about the "trust factor." The trust factor between picking up a cat and putting it in a crate, and trapping a cat are completely different. Picking up a cat and putting it in a crate, they KNOW you're responsible for their confinement and subsequent torture at the vet. In the trap, it's not your fault.

The best is to have everything set up and ready, trap them, get them neutered, and release them into their readied safe area.

As to mom and the kittens... given you can't take them in now anyway, best to just leave it and see how things develop. If you're putting food out regularly, if she'll come by to eat, she'll bring her kittens when she begins transitioning them to food. This should be, if I remember correctly, around five weeks. So you've apparently got a couple of weeks to decide what to do.

I would do them the same day if possible. And I really wouldn't worry about them being comfortable inside before having them spayed/neutered. I know of no advantage to it. In fact, in our experience, after all the stress and trauma of travel, the vet, anesthesia... it helps them adjust to being inside.

For health reasons for one of our cats and for space reasons once, we weren't able to quarantine kitties at home. We trapped, took them to the vet. They were treated for parasites, neutered, given rabies vaccination, any other wounds/issues were treated, and we had to leave them in boarding for 10 days (to make sure they weren't going to get sick with something that could be passed on to our immune-compromised kitty). By the time they got here, they were just grateful to be out of there. It was strange and scary... but I think that trip to the vet, even if they don't stay in boarding, makes the transition even just a tad easier.

It's certainly FAR easier than having them at home, putting them through the trauma of being crated (again), where you are definitely responsible for what's happening to them. Trapping and taking them to the vet, you're then rescuing them by bringing them back, and you skip that intermediate step where they're still not entirely happy about being inside.

It can take months (or more) for a cat that's never lived inside to be comfortable inside. And they're FAR happier without those hormones in them.

I really urge you to take them from outside to the vet, then to home, whether you use a crate or a trap.

WHAT great work. Aw.... just huge congratulations! I'm so glad you posted an update!

And what loves you are for fostering those babies!

As to Scruffles... you can either talk to your vet to see if they'd do it for cost or anything like that. But I would not try to bring her inside. Once they're a few years old, they really don't adapt well. Sometimes on their own they'll decide they want inside, and you'll know those signals if she gets to that point. But I wouldn't try to force her into the inside life.

If your vet won't work with you on cost for spaying her, just get her in as soon as the TNR program is back up for the season. We usually don't TNR during the winter. It's quite cold here, and we don't want to have to take a cat that's acclimated outside, put them through surgery, keeping them in for recovery, and then shocking their systems by putting them back out in the cold. We wait until things warm up just a little, but try to get them before mating season actually starts.

Such great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OH Goodness CUTENESS overload What wonderful sweet babies. Much luck to you in finding them furrever homes Of course, you feel like a mama . because you are. I think you will know, in your gut, if the people are going to be serious cat lover's. Make sure you ask for a fee - at least $50.00. If you know the people well, then it is up to you to "give them away". If they are answering the ad and you don't know them - ask for that fee. OK - it is safer for the babies because most people will not have a problem paying you an adoption fee for a lifetime of love I think when people come over to see the kitten's then you can mention about how they were born. It really shouldn't matter one way or another to the potential adopters of these adorable little furbabies. You have done a fantastic job bringing them along Keep us posted on these little ones

Stephanie - this TCS article might be of some help for you too with finding homes for your adorable babies More good luck vibes

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/kittens-to-good-homes