Does anyone feed whole prey diet? - Page 2

Read what I wrote a little more carefully, please. I said they don't feel AS MUCH pain and fear. If you want to err too far on one side or another, it should be on that side that causes the least amount of torment... and pre-kill the reptiles right along with the mice, etc.

Insects and worms, however, simply don't have the same abilities to feel pain and emotional distress at anywhere near similar levels (you can look that up; it's known scientific info).

AC

I'm going to have to disagree with you Auntie Crazy. Just because you can not see the pain and fear on the faces of reptiles or fish, doesn't mean they don't feel it in exactly the same way. Stress can very easily kill both of them.

And even if insects and worms can't feel pain, doesn't it matter more that they don't Want to be eaten? Doesn't it matter more that they struggle to get away with the same effort as a cat would? That they writhe when cut in half as though they feel pain?

As I said before, if you want to err on one side of the "to pre-kill or not" argument, err on the side that causes the least amount of terror and pain for the prey and don't feed the poor things live.

Except for insects, I feed nothing live, nor will I ever (including fish and lizards). *shudder*

AC

But I'm not arguing against erring on the cautious side, I'm arguing against that reptiles and fish don't feel as much pain and fear as mammals and birds do.

Well, that's my current understanding; it has something to do with their more primitive nervous systems and their lower emotional capabilities.

It's been a very long time since I've even thought about it, however, and I'm perfectly willing to be schooled. And if you can show they feel on a level closer to mammals, maybe more folks would euth. before feeding, which would be nothing but a good thing.

AC

I guess I feel the same way about people feeding live rodents, reptiles, and fish to their cats as I would about someone feeding live cats to their pet wolf, coyote, or wildcat. Maybe it is natural. But I don't think it's right. It can't be that hard to euth the prey first. And if the euthing method is just as distressing, I guess a better euthing method needs to be found.

It has nothing to do with why a whole prey diet didn't catch on. I'm totally okay with people feeding their animals whole prey, although I'm squeamish about meat in general (I don't touch or prepare meat for myself or anyone else, I only eat meat that's already prepared, like at a restaurant) so I couldn't do it. But of course reptiles and captive wild animals need to eat and nothing but whole prey will do.

I'm totally NOT okay with it being fed live (maybe bugs. Nothing else). Really, I don't see any difference between a cat and a mouse (mammals are mammals), and I would be very upset if I learned someone was feeding their captive coyote live cats. Yeah, wild coyotes eats cats all the time, but in the wild they at least have a fair shot at getting away and aren't stuck in a cage to die in pain and terror. Same with feeding live mice to cats.

I'm sure captive coyotes would find chasing live cats around to be fine enrichment too. I guess I feel you're just dismissing my opinion instead of actually addressing the issue. If you don't want to, fine, just say so, but I think it would make an interesting discussion.

Maybe you think mice aren't equal to cats. Maybe you think they don't feel pain or fear. Maybe you do think it would be fine for people to feed live cats to their large carnivores. Whatever you think, it would be interesting to hear it instead of just a vague dismissal.

I guess I'm not sure why an animal's suffering depends on what purpose the animal was bred for. A cat bred as coyote food, if fed to the coyote live, would suffer and be terrified just as much as a pet cat would. Unless you're saying that if a cat is bred to be food, it somehow suffers less? A former pet would suffer more? What's the difference between a pet mouse and a feeder mouse? Would you know the difference if the pet store gave you a mouse that used to be a pet?

If the animals are killed humanely before being fed, then I'm willing to concede to the food chain, no matter what species the animal is. But humans should not be deliberately torturing animals just to entertain their pets.

I'm pretty sure nobody would be able to "explain" live feeding in a way that would make me "understand". I'm just disappointed that anybody who evidently values their pets' lives would think that any other animal is not worthy of the same humane treatment.

I'm gunna jump in on this, cuz I have a few comments.

*I don't think feeding cats to coyotes is comparable to feeding mice to cats because domestic cats are mankinds doing, and without us coyotes wouldn't be eating cats, but cats have always been eating mice; I don't think coyotes eating cats is 'natural'.

* I think the point Cat Person was trying to make (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that cats breed to be feeders are different from cats breed to be pets because 'feeder cats' wouldn't belong to someone. If you are feeding a pet that most likely means you are doing it for your own cruel reasons, not because you want the predattor (whatever it is) to be happy.

*It's kinda backwards to say you get upset about preparing meat/feeding live/others feeding live, but you are perfectly okay with eating meat as long as you didn't have to see it. The animals you ate felt pain too. IMHO, you can't judge others for being 'cruel' when you yourself are causing pain and fear to animals yourself.

*I don't understand how mice aren't equal to cats. They both are intelligent animals and mice especially are very social creatures. They care for their young as well as each other.

I have no ethical problem (and I don't get upset) with humans eating meat (or animals being fed humanely-killed prey). I just can't prepare meats because I think raw meat is disgusting. Once it's cooked, I'm OK.

Ideally, an animal slaughtered for meat (or euthed for feeding other animals) should not be experiencing pain or fear. If done properly, the animal doesn't know what hit it. I know it doesn't always go as planned, but that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's the way it usually goes. Slaughterhouses go to great lengths to prevent the animals from getting scared, because when a 2000-pound cow is panicking (and then the other cows panic, too), it's a big problem. For this to be comparable, I'd have to go out and chase a steer around until he's totally freaked out, knock him around a few times, cut a steak out of his flank, then gut him and let him bleed to death.

Again, I am not against feeding whole prey. I am against feeding live prey. I know it happens in the wild, but in the wild, the prey animal has a sporting chance of escaping. I think cats have less than a 50% success rate in hunting. Meaning that more than half of the mice get away. And humans shouldn't be contributing to any animal's suffering if they can help it.

I'm not sure if I should get into the horrible conditions that food animals go through or not....

I know. . .I live in a major beef production state. Actually, for most cattle life is not so bad. For poultry and most hogs it's pretty awful (hoop farming hogs is becoming more common. . .almost free-range. Not so awful as a hog confinement). But slaughtering is still usually not distressing, simply because it's dangerous to scare a cow or hog that is 5-10 times your weight.

Its not illegal anywhere that I am aware of. Feeder animals have no protection under animal cruelty laws. I simply get in trouble because many places are not fond of my opinion or the groups I have been associated with (no not PETA!!!)
I simply do not agree with throwing live animals into enclosures as "food". In the wild the chance of escape is more realistic and happens more often than not. Artificially engineered hunting is not natural, but thats always a point to disagree upon and I have no issue with that.

People being obtuse about putting feeders back in cages when they are not eaten annoys me. Those I have dealt with have come from herp owners that think its ok to starve feeders or cram them into tiny glass bowls and tanks. Your animals food is only as good as the time and care you put into it.

Had my cats been interested in F/T feeders I would use them. They turned their noses up at it. Im just not ever going to be ok with people feeding animals live to anything.

I totally understand the concept of feeding whole prey to a carnivorous predator. I do not, however, understand the need to feed live prey. Environmental enrichment can be satisfied with appropriate play. You want kitty to "win" his "kill?" Put food under a handkerchief and make the last mouse or feather or rabbit tail on da Bird or whatever land on that.

From what I can find by lurking around reptile forums, it IS illegal in the UK and Australia (and maybe some places in Europe. . .it's kind of unclear) to feed live vertebrates to reptiles, unless your reptile is starving and the vet tells you to try live prey (and even then it sounds like you could still get in trouble, but they generally overlook it). Presumably feeding live vertebrates to other kinds of animals is also illegal there.

I find it rather interesting when individuals claim laziness or lack of knowledge or not caring enough about their pets to feed raw or whole prey. I often ask these people if they only feed their children fruits, vegetables and humanely raised organic meats? If they have never taken their child to McDonald's? If their child never eats processed food? If they answer that they only feed their child foods that are good for them and never feed convience food, then I tip my hat to them.....however, I've yet to find that person.

I have healthy pets. They suffer from the normal effects of aging but their coats are beautiful, they are happy and eat the very best food i can afford. I have never once felt bad for not doing raw/prey.

Add me to the bench of those that think feeding live prey is unnecessary. I saw a video of a dog being put in a cage with a MASSIVE snake for his dinner. It was an awful video.....and whether that live prey is a mouse, cat, dog or whatever, there is no way i could watch that or know it was happening in my home. If the animals are out, wild and having to hunt for food, that's one thing, completely another if they are domesticated and living indoors.

Um, no one said that if you feed a whole prey diet that you can't feed anything else.. Your point is kind of moot and random.

Also, no one is asking you to feel bad for not feeding raw.

I just wanted to add that my 2 kitties, ages 4 mo. and 7 mo. just love their frozen/thawed mice. I found this conversation on the forum because I was searching the raw feeding section to see if anyone had an idea of how many feeder mice to give per week. I've been giving them one each on Sunday. Started first with a pinkie but last tried a fuzzy. The 4 mo. old plays with it for about 20 minutes in the bathtub and then eats it...the 7 mo. just eats it with no party before hand. They both love their mice feeder treats. I love the fact that they're getting all that good nutrition. Anyone else having such good luck?

This opinion is from a neophyte when it comes to feeding raw feeding.

I chose to go raw about six weeks ago because I was tired of feeding Ritz low quality canned seafood flavored food (the only flavor she would eat) and her always being hungry.  In desperation I started feeding her commercial raw.  She loved it from the first bite (we're still working on amounts and hunger issues). 

Then I ventured into frankenprey.  I got over my squeamishness when handling jello-like raw liver and kidney because of how much I saw Ritz liked eating it and how much energy she had.  I liked (well kind of) hearing Ritz crunching bones, chewing meat/poultry like she was meant to do.   I've also given her a few crickets to play with and eat.  I am now back on feeding commercial raw until I understand the ratios better (80/10/5/5).

But whole prey, my own personal comfort level isn't there yet.  Although I like, really like, the fact that I wouldn't have to guess at the proportions for whole prey, so that possibility is still in the back of my mind. I've thought about buying some frozen pinkies and small mice.  Thinking about it still.

As for the reason whole prey hasn't caught on:  like a lot of the other posters said, comfort level and cuteness factor.   What that individual level is, isn't a bad/good thing, it just is.  Today, canned wet food (yesterday, dry kibble); tomorrow, commercial raw.  Or, always canned wet food.