Does anyone feed whole prey diet?

auntie crazy · Aug 25, 2011

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I like hare today, they rock because I can't really get anything for organs locally, just poultry livers so I usually order a bunch of organs, some quail, rabbit, chicken necks, etc, nice because they will do 2-3 day shipping which is a lot cheaper! But organs come in huge frozen hunks so I had my whole fridge full of food while it thawed enough to chop and bag smaller. Prices I find are reasonable except on guinea pigs.

I've ordered from Hare-Today many times and up until the last shipment, I've been pleased with the quality of the food. This last shipment, however, much of the product contained a lot of fat (meaning the animals were overfed); I'm hoping it was an anomaly, but if not, I might look for a new source of rabbit and poultry hearts.

I always order in 50-pound increments and, yeah, having to work with all that meat at one time was insanely draining. Now, however, I just toss it all into my chest freezer and only (partially) thaw and repackage the products I'm in need of for the upcoming week; MUCH more manageable.

AC

cat person · Aug 25, 2011

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I like hare today, they rock because I can't really get anything for organs locally, just poultry livers so I usually order a bunch of organs, some quail, rabbit, chicken necks, etc, nice because they will do 2-3 day shipping which is a lot cheaper! But organs come in huge frozen hunks so I had my whole fridge full of food while it thawed enough to chop and bag smaller. Prices I find are reasonable except on guinea pigs.

Thank you very much for the information

.

nerdrock · Aug 25, 2011

I usually feed my dogs a whole prey/prey model raw diet.

The main reasons I don't feed my cat raw:
1) She plays with it for too long and frankly I'm not going to sit there and watch her play with a dead mouse to make sure she doesn't lose it
2) It's too expensive around here to find a reliable source for whole prey items - I can readily get mice, but they're still close to $2/mouse. I haven't been able to find anywhere (local) to get chicks, quail, etc. We get rabbits for free (10lb) so I can't justify driving 45 minutes away to pay $6 for a rabbit small enough for my cat.
3) I don't have anywhere to lock her while I feed her raw - we feed the dogs in the bathroom but she won't eat in there if she's locked in. She likes to drag it all over our apartment.

All that being said, we do get her mice as a treat occasionally and she gets chicken hearts/livers when we get them for the dogs.

It seems to be a lot easier and cheaper to feed a dog a whole prey/prey model raw diet because it's easier to get whole prey animals and we can get meat for free or cheap off of hunters and freezer scraps.

anita1216 · Aug 25, 2011

Having kept rodents as pets for more than a decade..I have unfortunately seen what happens to these animals when other animals do not care to eat them. While I do not argue that whole prey is most definately a better diet, most of us have cats that just cant be bothered because they were not raised to know any better. I know its not a popular opinion, but feeding any feeder animal live is cruel. I have been arrested and have permanent bans in some places because of protesting and whatnot. Im not saying whole prey is bad, live whole prey is just wrong.

Minka, Im sorry but your one freinds anecdotal evidence means nothing in the grand scheme of things. What you see in one place is not really true of the entire country.

I spend a fortune of both the cats and the dog. Our pitbull hapily eats whatever meat is given to her, the cats not so much. Its a work in progress.

cat person · Aug 26, 2011

Originally Posted by nerdrock

I usually feed my dogs a whole prey/prey model raw diet.

The main reasons I don't feed my cat raw:
1) She plays with it for too long and frankly I'm not going to sit there and watch her play with a dead mouse to make sure she doesn't lose it
2) It's too expensive around here to find a reliable source for whole prey items - I can readily get mice, but they're still close to $2/mouse. I haven't been able to find anywhere (local) to get chicks, quail, etc. We get rabbits for free (10lb) so I can't justify driving 45 minutes away to pay $6 for a rabbit small enough for my cat.
3) I don't have anywhere to lock her while I feed her raw - we feed the dogs in the bathroom but she won't eat in there if she's locked in. She likes to drag it all over our apartment.

All that being said, we do get her mice as a treat occasionally and she gets chicken hearts/livers when we get them for the dogs.

It seems to be a lot easier and cheaper to feed a dog a whole prey/prey model raw diet because it's easier to get whole prey animals and we can get meat for free or cheap off of hunters and freezer scraps.

Thank you for contributing to my post

. Yes live mice, rats, and other critters running around the house is NOT good/fun. My DSH Shadow will kill the mice and rats outside and then eat them on my deck

. But if the food source escapes they are already outside anyway.

As for the feeder mice that I am feeding to the F3 Savannah I feed them in a small room. I spend my computer time (it is a laptop) in that room now while he plays with and then kills the mouse. Once he kills it he eats it in two bites. He does not drag it all over. But the room is easy cleaning just in case

.

Originally Posted by anita1216

Having kept rodents as pets for more than a decade..I have unfortunately seen what happens to these animals when other animals do not care to eat them. While I do not argue that whole prey is most definately a better diet, most of us have cats that just cant be bothered because they were not raised to know any better. I know its not a popular opinion, but feeding any feeder animal live is cruel. I have been arrested and have permanent bans in some places because of protesting and whatnot. Im not saying whole prey is bad, live whole prey is just wrong.

Minka, Im sorry but your one freinds anecdotal evidence means nothing in the grand scheme of things. What you see in one place is not really true of the entire country.

I spend a fortune of both the cats and the dog. Our pitbull hapily eats whatever meat is given to her, the cats not so much. Its a work in progress.

I am a bit confused by what you are saying. So keep that in mind with this response. I know where I live it is NOT ILLEGAL to feed any animal another feeder animal. Like you can feed feeder mice to reptiles/amphibians, cats, fish or any other animal you choose.

Now if you mean it is cruel/immoral to feed live prey to another animal I can understand your point of view. But we will have to agree to disagree

.

goingpostal · Aug 26, 2011

Originally Posted by anita1216

Having kept rodents as pets for more than a decade..I have unfortunately seen what happens to these animals when other animals do not care to eat them.

They go back in the cage? I guess I don't really see much difference in the end if I give my cat or ferret a live mouse to kill, or if I gas them with a bunch of others first? It's dead and going to be eaten either way. Seems to be cute furry things though, don't hear much uproar over feeder worms, roaches, crickets, fish and lizards. Of course it's similar to the folks who can't handle feeding their precious kitty real meat but kibble for their carnivore is fine, what do they think is in that?

nerdrock · Aug 26, 2011

One thing I forgot to mention before is that when we move to a house we will be raising rabbits and chickens for meat - both for ourselves and out pets. At that point, Leiki (the cat) will probably get more whole prey items.

We will also have an outdoor enclosure/kennel for the dogs (required by law here for breeder's license). Even though we won't be really keeping them in there, that is probably where we will be feeding them. Leiki will be able to come and go from there as she pleases, so we will probably feed her her prey items in there. Then she can carry them around and play with them all she wants.

cat person · Aug 26, 2011

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

They go back in the cage? I guess I don't really see much difference in the end if I give my cat or ferret a live mouse to kill, or if I gas them with a bunch of others first? It's dead and going to be eaten either way. Seems to be cute furry things though, don't hear much uproar over feeder worms, roaches, crickets, fish and lizards. Of course it's similar to the folks who can't handle feeding their precious kitty real meat but kibble for their carnivore is fine, what do they think is in that?

I think that was a great post. Thank you for posting. I agree why do people not worry about other "feeder animals"? In my opinion it is because these animals are not "cute".

Originally Posted by nerdrock

One thing I forgot to mention before is that when we move to a house we will be raising rabbits and chickens for meat - both for ourselves and out pets. At that point, Leiki (the cat) will probably get more whole prey items.

We will also have an outdoor enclosure/kennel for the dogs (required by law here for breeder's license). Even though we won't be really keeping them in there, that is probably where we will be feeding them. Leiki will be able to come and go from there as she pleases, so we will probably feed her her prey items in there. Then she can carry them around and play with them all she wants.

That sounds like a great idea for Leiki and your home

. Again thank you for adding to my thread

.

auntie crazy · Aug 26, 2011

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

They go back in the cage? I guess I don't really see much difference in the end if I give my cat or ferret a live mouse to kill, or if I gas them with a bunch of others first? It's dead and going to be eaten either way. Seems to be cute furry things though, don't hear much uproar over feeder worms, roaches, crickets, fish and lizards. Of course it's similar to the folks who can't handle feeding their precious kitty real meat but kibble for their carnivore is fine, what do they think is in that?

Easy there...

Worms, roaches, crickets, fish and lizards all lack the ability to feel either pain OR panic at the level mice, rats, birds, etc. can feel them. Gassing is quicker, less scarier and definitely less painful than being killed by a cat (usually after it's done "playing" for a while). It is simply cruel to deliberately cause a prey animal more pain and fear than is necessary to attend to the needs of your cat.

In addition, you are unnecessarily risking damage to your cat. Rodent bites are notoriously painful, and an untended bite can abscess in no time at all. A cat might even start refusing to eat rodents if it's been bitten hard enough or often enough. Responsible snake owners feed pre-killed mice and rats to prevent risking damage to their snake; should cat owners be any less responsible?

AC

goingpostal · Aug 28, 2011

Who's to say reptiles and roaches don't feel pain or fear? And if they didn't, why does that make it any more ok to feed your cats crickets than to feed mine mice? They are still a living creature. I have reptiles and I assure you, they get frightened and stressed. I also do gas many of my rodents, did some tonight and doing co2 correctly, my cat could easily eat a couple mice in the time it takes them to die from gassing. She doesn't play with them however and I wouldn't allow her live mice if she did. I only have one ferret who kills mice, because the rest are horrible at all but she is an impressively fast killer biting the spine.

cat person · Aug 28, 2011

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Who's to say reptiles and roaches don't feel pain or fear? And if they didn't, why does that make it any more ok to feed your cats crickets than to feed mine mice? They are still a living creature. I have reptiles and I assure you, they get frightened and stressed. I also do gas many of my rodents, did some tonight and doing co2 correctly, my cat could easily eat a couple mice in the time it takes them to die from gassing. She doesn't play with them however and I wouldn't allow her live mice if she did. I only have one ferret who kills mice, because the rest are horrible at all but she is an impressively fast killer biting the spine.

I agree with you one hundred percent

. I simply think people think of the poor cute mouse but not the icky lizard. In my opinion it all comes down to the "cuteness" factor.

auntie crazy · Aug 28, 2011

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Who's to say reptiles and roaches don't feel pain or fear? And if they didn't, why does that make it any more ok to feed your cats crickets than to feed mine mice? They are still a living creature. I have reptiles and I assure you, they get frightened and stressed. I also do gas many of my rodents, did some tonight and doing co2 correctly, my cat could easily eat a couple mice in the time it takes them to die from gassing. She doesn't play with them however and I wouldn't allow her live mice if she did. I only have one ferret who kills mice, because the rest are horrible at all but she is an impressively fast killer biting the spine.

Read what I wrote a little more carefully, please.

I said they don't feel AS MUCH pain and fear. If you want to err too far on one side or another, it should be on that side that causes the least amount of torment... and pre-kill the reptiles right along with the mice, etc.

Insects and worms, however, simply don't have the same abilities to feel pain and emotional distress at anywhere near similar levels (you can look that up; it's known scientific info).

AC

minka · Aug 28, 2011

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Read what I wrote a little more carefully, please.

I said they don't feel AS MUCH pain and fear. If you want to err too far on one side or another, it should be on that side that causes the least amount of torment... and pre-kill the reptiles right along with the mice, etc.

Insects and worms, however, simply don't have the same abilities to feel pain and emotional distress at anywhere near similar levels (you can look that up; it's known scientific info).

AC

I'm going to have to disagree with you Auntie Crazy. Just because you can not see the pain and fear on the faces of reptiles or fish, doesn't mean they don't feel it in exactly the same way. Stress can very easily kill both of them.

And even if insects and worms can't feel pain, doesn't it matter more that they don't Want to be eaten? Doesn't it matter more that they struggle to get away with the same effort as a cat would? That they writhe when cut in half as though they feel pain?

auntie crazy · Aug 28, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

I'm going to have to disagree with you Auntie Crazy. Just because you can not see the pain and fear on the faces of reptiles or fish, doesn't mean they don't feel it in exactly the same way. Stress can very easily kill both of them.

And even if insects and worms can't feel pain, doesn't it matter more that they don't Want to be eaten? Doesn't it matter more that they struggle to get away with the same effort as a cat would? That they writhe when cut in half as though they feel pain?

As I said before, if you want to err on one side of the "to pre-kill or not" argument, err on the side that causes the least amount of terror and pain for the prey and don't feed the poor things live.

Except for insects, I feed nothing live, nor will I ever (including fish and lizards). *shudder*

AC

minka · Aug 28, 2011

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

As I said before, if you want to err on one side of the "to pre-kill or not" argument, err on the side that causes the least amount of terror and pain for the prey and don't feed the poor things live.

Except for insects, I feed nothing live, nor will I ever (including fish and lizards). *shudder*

AC

But I'm not arguing against erring on the cautious side, I'm arguing against that reptiles and fish don't feel as much pain and fear as mammals and birds do.

auntie crazy · Aug 28, 2011

Originally Posted by Minka

But I'm not arguing against erring on the cautious side, I'm arguing against that reptiles and fish don't feel as much pain and fear as mammals and birds do.

Well, that's my current understanding; it has something to do with their more primitive nervous systems and their lower emotional capabilities.

It's been a very long time since I've even thought about it, however, and I'm perfectly willing to be schooled.

And if you can show they feel on a level closer to mammals, maybe more folks would euth. before feeding, which would be nothing but a good thing.

AC

Willowy · Aug 31, 2011

I guess I feel the same way about people feeding live rodents, reptiles, and fish to their cats as I would about someone feeding live cats to their pet wolf, coyote, or wildcat. Maybe it is natural. But I don't think it's right. It can't be that hard to euth the prey first. And if the euthing method is just as distressing, I guess a better euthing method needs to be found.

cat person · Aug 31, 2011

Originally Posted by Willowy

I guess I feel the same way about people feeding live rodents, reptiles, and fish to their cats as I would about someone feeding live cats to their pet wolf, coyote, or wildcat. Maybe it is natural. But I don't think it's right. It can't be that hard to euth the prey first. And if the euthing method is just as distressing, I guess a better euthing method needs to be found.

I understand that most people feel that way. I know I am the minority about being okay with feeding whole LIVE prey animals. I am guessing the way you feel is very common. That is why whole prey diet NEVER caught on I am guessing.

Thank you for adding to my thread

.

Willowy · Aug 31, 2011

Originally Posted by Cat Person

I understand that most people feel that way. I know I am the minority about being okay with feeding whole LIVE prey animals. I am guessing the way you feel is very common. That is why whole prey diet NEVER caught on I am guessing.

It has nothing to do with why a whole prey diet didn't catch on. I'm totally okay with people feeding their animals whole prey, although I'm squeamish about meat in general (I don't touch or prepare meat for myself or anyone else, I only eat meat that's already prepared, like at a restaurant) so I couldn't do it. But of course reptiles and captive wild animals need to eat and nothing but whole prey will do.

I'm totally NOT okay with it being fed live (maybe bugs. Nothing else). Really, I don't see any difference between a cat and a mouse (mammals are mammals), and I would be very upset if I learned someone was feeding their captive coyote live cats. Yeah, wild coyotes eats cats all the time, but in the wild they at least have a fair shot at getting away and aren't stuck in a cage to die in pain and terror. Same with feeding live mice to cats.

cat person · Sep 1, 2011

Originally Posted by Willowy

It has nothing to do with why a whole prey diet didn't catch on. I'm totally okay with people feeding their animals whole prey, although I'm squeamish about meat in general (I don't touch or prepare meat for myself or anyone else, I only eat meat that's already prepared, like at a restaurant) so I couldn't do it. But of course reptiles and captive wild animals need to eat and nothing but whole prey will do.

I'm totally NOT okay with it being fed live (maybe bugs. Nothing else). Really, I don't see any difference between a cat and a mouse (mammals are mammals), and I would be very upset if I learned someone was feeding their captive coyote live cats. Yeah, wild coyotes eats cats all the time, but in the wild they at least have a fair shot at getting away and aren't stuck in a cage to die in pain and terror. Same with feeding live mice to cats.

Alright thank you for the clarification. I can just say in my case I feel it is great environmental enrichment for my F3 Savannah. Since he is a completely indoor animal.

Plus like I stated earlier, I have feed mice, rats, chicks etc to various reptiles and some exotic birds I breed over the years.

While two of the three pure domestics do there hunting "naturally". You know outside in the woods

.

But I am sure you are in the majority, while I am in the minority. Thank you for adding to my thread

.

Does anyone feed whole prey diet?

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter

TCS Member

TCS Member

Thread starter