Vibes needed for feral kittens today.

On Sunday we had 2 feral Cat Rescue Maritimes kittens dropped off to us as some of the trappers were doing some trapping and caught these little ones. One of their siblings was already in foster care caught a week ago today. The trappers also caught 3 adults to have them spayed/neutered and then released back into the colony.

Well I got a call yesterday stating that 2 of the 3 adults were put to sleep as they tested positive for FIV.

Our 2 foster kittens, as well as their sibling who was in foster care with an AMAZING couple, is currently at the vet being tested and checked over. ca-R-ma's policy is to put the kittens to sleep if they test positive, so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep these little ones in your thoughts and send tons of vibes. They deserve a chance!

Aw, I'm so sorry! Does your org have the resources to do the confirmatory Western Blot (much more expensive) test? There are apparently a lot of false positives on the snap test, ESPECIALLY with kittens under (I think it's) three months of age. The problem is that mom's antibodies can interfere with testing in kittens.

The UC Davis Shelter Medicine Fact Sheet says simply that "Kittens born to FIV positive mothers are at low risk for infection, although they may initially test positive due to the presence of maternal antibodies," and that "The test can not be accurately interpreted in young kittens." http://www.sheltermedicine.com/porta...line_fiv.shtml

We just had one of our friendly ferals test positive for FIV, and the foster network that had space open up for him couldn't take him. I understand how hard it is to place FIV+ kitties; people are so undereducated about how safe it actually is to have an FIV+ kitty living with non-FIV infected kitties.

the shelter will at least be able to wait until the kittens are old enough to rely on the test before making a decision. I know they're testing them now... but how old are the kitties?

Well we don't have a shelter, the kittens are at the vet. We're an organization that relies on foster homes and volunteers.

Thank you SO much for all of the information hun. *hugs* If any of them test positive, I will discuss all of this with the vet and see what they think, as well as with the director of ca-R-ma as she and I are quite close. I'm really not sure which test they are using, but I do know we all want what is best for these babies, so I hope it will all work out. We're still such a new organization in this city (more established in surrounding cities) so we're still learning the ropes and are new to deal with all of this.

2 of the kittens are approx. 10 weeks old. The 3rd we're not sure if he is from the same litter or not as he is substantially smaller but could just be the runt. He looks to be about 7-8 weeks old.

Even with the SNAP, test twice - they don't cost that much. SO many cats (and especially kittens) test negative just a week later with SNAP

Our vet will not test using just SNAP for kittens 4-5 months or under because he says they will have antibodies even if their parents are both negative so lots will test positive

Note that positive FIV test results for kittens under 6 months of age are not considered valid - such kittens should be re-tested each month using the SNAP test until they test negative or exceed 6 months of age. If a kitten still has a positive SNAP test result at 6 months of age, it would be appropriate to run a confirmatory Western Blot test.

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Ok, all of this is great to know so that I can discuss it with the vet and our director. I need to give these kittens a chance and am willing to foster them as long as it takes. I'll keep you guys updated.

Yup, that's the information I found at Cornell - positive FIV test results are not reliable until six months of age.

Sadly, it doesn't work with the time frame of most shelters/foster networks.

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/fiv.html

Cornell says kittens testing positive should be tested every 60 days until they're 6 months old to confirm. I'm not sure what it means for cats that tested positive and then test negative - but my understanding is that because it takes up to 12 weeks for the antibodies (in an adult cat bitten by an infected cat) to appear, in kittens that have antibodies because of a parent, if it formerly tested positive and then tests negative, it means the antibodies are no longer in their systems, and so it's not a false negative. I'm sure one more test would be prudent.

All of that said - because FIV is transmitted only through deep, penetrating bite wounds and not through casual contact (unless there is an animal that already has a severely compromised immune system), kittens that do test positive can be safely be fostered with other kittens while waiting to see if the antibodies cycle out of their system.

Continued

I have a lot of great info links if you want more (thanks in good part to eilcon!). Just click on the picture in my signature line for one that discusses all the myths surrounding FIV.

The test they're using is the SNAP test - it gives immediate results. The Western Blot takes 5-7 days for results back. It tests for the two specific proteins that confirm the presence of an FIV infection.

Our Charlie just got his Western Blot back - it shows a "transient positive," which means only one protein was found. This means he's fighting the infection, and may test negative in the future - either that, or we get a confirmatory positive after testing him again in another month or so.

Please keep in mind that there are quite a few vets that are not well educated on FIV and their understanding of its risk to other cats. I'd have to say that if the adults were put down after one SNAP test, the vet isn't as up-to-date on their knowledge of FIV as they should be.

The foster network that takes our "friendlies" always pays for the Western Blot test before putting down adults; the two vet practices we work most closely with say that all the foster networks/shelters they work with do two SNAP tests at a minimum before putting adults down. I never asked about kittens (because we only have adults turn up).

little babies

I just got the call. 2 of the 3 tested positive. The only one who didn't was the little male.

The vet who called me was very sweet and we talked for awhile. She said that although bites is the most COMMON way to transmit, it can be spread from sharing food bowls, grooming, sneezing on each other, etc, although those ways ARE less common. She strongly recommended euthanization. She said the foster parents chose to do so with the other little male.

I spoke with Angela, the director of ca-R-ma and she said that the kitten can be retested after 6 months but during that time would have to remail in a room completely seperated from all other cats and if at that time she tested positive, she would have to be euthanized. With that being said I made the choice to have the little girl put to sleep as well. I am so heart broken right now...


We will be picking up the little guy after work. The vet said he seems to be in perfect health. I will concentrate all of my efforts into this guy. He will be an incredible little love bug and will have an incredible life. I promise him that.

I am sorry to hear about the little girls.

She said that although bites is the most COMMON way to transmit, it can be spread from sharing food bowls, grooming, sneezing on each other, etc, although those ways ARE less common.

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I understand why certain vets/rescues choose to euthanize with a positive FIV, regardless of age, however that vet is wrong about FIV being spread in such casual ways. Sounds like the vet was blowing smoke to justify her recommendation.

FIV is spread through deep bite wounds (or birth, less common) only. FeLV (feline leukemia) can be spread though those other ways, but FIV is not.

Kittens testing positive are usually just carrying a mother's antibodies.

I hate to contradict a vet, but as Laurie said, many aren't very well educated about FIV and, unfortunately, many cats are needlessly euthanized.

FIV is NOT spread through casual contact - the sharing of litterboxes, food and water bowls, or mutual grooming. Many people I know have FIV positive and negative cats living together without issue. As long as the cats don't fight, it's not a concern. My most recent foster was FIV+ and had regular contact with mine. If there was any risk to them, trust me, he wouldn't have.

Laurie's sig for Charlie has a link to some great (and accurate) info about FIV. You may want to share it with your vet.

I'm so sorry.

Just for future decision-making and others reading this thread:

This is the best article I've found on the issue of casual transmission: it reviews studies on the subject, and tries to balance vet recommendations (because of their liability as professionals) vs. people like me, who want to find homes for FIV+ cats.

http://www.fivtherapy.com/fiv_casualtransmission.htm

The bottom line is that after extensive research, we decided the risk of casual transmission is low enough that it's worth the risk. The research isn't clear where the information has been obtained, but Cornell says the virus can only live outside the cat for a few hours (and cats with healthy immune systems, even if they come into contact with it will likely not result in becoming infected). That appears to be based on HIV research; other studies indicate that the FIV virus remains viable outside of the body for a few minutes.

Both vets we consulted on the issue said that while as professionals they have to recommend separating FIV+ kitties, the reality of the situation is that research indicates that it can only be transmitted via deep, penetrating bite wounds except in immunocompromised cats. It appears to require deep tissue penetration for incubation, and in healthy cats, even this does not mean they will contract the virus. Each of them (different vet practices, in fact, each in a different county covering a different socio-economic clientele) says they have clients with FIV+ cats and FIV- negative cats, and they've never seen an inside cat not infected with FIV in this situation become FIV+ in all their years of practice. One of these vets has been practicing for almost 30 years... but the virus wasn't even isolated until 1986. He's known mixed-cat households since a test was developed for it.

The biggest issue re: misinformation seems to be the likelihood of cats contracting the disease once exposed via causal contact. The above article addresses that very well, and it appears to be that with casual contact the possibility is almost nil. The problem is the VERY few studies that indicate otherwise. Those studies do appear to have serious flaws in the study design, as they were simply observational studies, not controlled, and also appear to include outside cat colonies where animals aren't under strict observation, are exposed to aggressive un-neutered animals, and results were muddied by the presence of FeLV and other immunocomprising problems.

This article has good information about how to best manage care of cats in a home that has mixed FIV+ and FIV- cats:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...=livingwithfiv

Tuxedo's vet, who is fabulous, thinks that even with his health situation, it's very unlikely he'd be infected by Charlie if there are no major cat fights. Our cats don't bite when they get pissy - there are hisses and bats - but it must be saliva to blood, and while they don't know for sure - it appears highly unlikely it can be transmitted through a scratch, though there are places that perpetuate the apparent myth that this virus can be transmitted casually. Both of our vets understand from more current research that the disease REQUIRES the deep tissue penetration for the incubation.

Would you live with an HIV-infected roommate? If you're current on knowledge of HIV transmission, most people wouldn't hesitate. If you have cats that don't fight and proper introductions are made, you keep your cats indoors, and they're spayed and neutered, it's the same with cats.

I'm sorry if I'm a little naive, but why would a vet tell me that it's contageous those if it isn't? This vet is amazing, and they've always gone above and beyond for our organization. I would like to think that I wasn't misled here... I would HATE to think that I made the wrong decision, but it would absolutely kill me if one of my babies somehow got infected. I would blame myself endlessly. I felt kind of like I was put between a rock and a hard place, because euthanasia is policy of the organization, and I'm not sure that sits well with me. Argh, I just feel supremely terrible. I KNOW this is all part of rescue work, but none of it ever gets any easier.

Originally Posted by Kailie

I'm sorry if I'm a little naive, but why would a vet tell me that it's contageous those if it isn't?

This vet is amazing, and they've always gone above and beyond for our organization. I would like to think that I wasn't misled here... I would HATE to think that I made the wrong decision, but it would absolutely kill me if one of my babies somehow got infected. I would blame myself endlessly. I felt kind of like I was put between a rock and a hard place, because euthanasia is policy of the organization, and I'm not sure that sits well with me. Argh, I just feel supremely terrible. I KNOW this is all part of rescue work, but none of it ever gets any easier.

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You're not naive. You're just relying on info from a vet you trust and that's okay. Like I said before, many vets and rescue folks are uneducated about FIV, largely because it's a relatively new disease and there's a lot of misinformation about it. Often, it's confused with Feline Leukemia, which can be spread through casual contact. Of the two vets in the practice where I take my own cats, the younger one told me a few years ago not to let an FIV+ cat I was fostering at the time have any contact with mine. She has since done her research and no longer gives people this advice.

I'm sorry you were put in such a difficult position. One of the challenges of rescue work is abiding by the organization's policies. I think the main thing now is to learn from the experience, move forward and try to educate your vet and the organization about FIV. Some vets don't like to be questioned, but I've learned that the really good ones are more than willing to learn.

Here's another link to help address FIV with your vet:

http://www.v63.net/catsanctuary/vet_question.html

Kailie, I'm sure she did not deliberately mislead you. It's like Doctors - our general practitioners develop knowledge of certain things over other things if it's an issue in their patient population. My husband suffers from cluster headaches. His GP is now close to an expert. Ask your GP next time you go if they've even heard of them. It affects less than 1% of the population. Most neurologists still treat them like they would a migraine, in fact. And this is a group of specialists.

The prevalence of FIV in the U.S. among the entire cat population is 2% - 4%, so most vets aren't that knowledgable of the disease and where things stand with current research. Her knowledge is based on old information. ANY vet HAS to say that there is a risk to a non-FIV infected cat from an FIV+ cat, but whether a vet recommends euthanization or separation depends ENTIRELY upon how much time they've spent researching the disease.

This is a relatively new disease that has not had a lot of research done on it, and what our vets learned depend upon what vet school they went to, when, and how current they are on research. If FIV is not a big issue in her practice area, it's doubtful she's current on it.

We might have been posting at the same time, so I don't know if you saw my last post - it's the first post on this page and has an extremely useful link with data that your vet may appreciate.

Sadly, most foster networks and shelters do have the policy of euthanizing FIV+ cats. This is because they are very difficult to adopt out. This is because SO FEW PEOPLE - including vets and the shelter staff - do not understand how low the risk of infection is to a healthy indoor-cat population.

The problem is that the medical community doesn't know how long specifically FIV lives outside the body (research varies from minutes to hours - they do all agree it's very short), they don't know what transmission routes actually are - they don't know why some cats become infected with it over others.

They just know that over time, it is becoming more and more apparent that it cannot be transmitted casually, or the rates of infection would be going through the roof, given that the vaccine for it is so poor (unlike the FeLV vaccine, which basically works).

...The FIV vaccine is so poor because it depends upon the strain of FIV. The vet treating Charlie went to a conference where there was a presentation done on the vaccine. She was sitting next to a vet from Texas who thought the FIV vaccine was the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is because the strain of FIV in his operating area properly matches the FIV vaccine. The strain of FIV up here in NJ does not, so the vaccine is useless.

Two vets - completely opposite opinions. But without the deeper knowledge of why the vaccine works in some places and not others (which wasn't known that it would be like this when it was created) - what is another vet - in say Minnesota - supposed to think?

The fact of the matter is that there is empirical evidence that this particular virus cannot be transmitted casually - but it is not well documented in scientific peer-review published studies that a vet can point to from a liability perspective and say, "well, I based my opinion on this research."

It's up to people like us to ask our vets to learn more about it with us, and continue to work to help others understand that FIV is not the risk most people think it is.

In fact, as she's someone who's gone above and beyond for your group, then it seems to me she'd be the kind of person that would appreciate someone saying, "I found this information, and it seems to contradict the idea that this can be transmitted casually..."

Thanks for all of the info guys... I'm going to share it all with our director and see what she thinks in regards to changing the policy. I'll be sure to keep you all up to date on the progress.

Also just an FYI, the little man who is negative is a beautiful brown tabby we have named Lucius.

Well I just sent all of those site links to ca-R-ma's director, who is also a friend of mine. She called me BAWLING her eyes out. One of her foster's, Malani, who she planned to offically adopt next week, tested FIV+, so now she is dealing with it first hand. I shared with her all of the helpful info from you guys and emailed her the links. Here's hoping!

oh i am so sorry you are having to go through this