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5 strong kittens died within 20 days of their birth  

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Hello to everyone! I need your answer, folks.

First, some background. Two years ago, I found a blue kitten. I started feeding her and she somehow became "mine" (or I became hers) even though she never entered my home. On 10 March 2009, she gave birth to a litter of five. On 22 April, four kittens were killed by dogs during the night. One survived by hiding under a car. He himself died on 4 June, being hit by a car. She and her last surviving kitten from her first litter both survived cat flu thanks to the vet's dedication, though her condition was rather serious.

She had another litter of five on 27 July, all daughters this time. One died few weeks after birth. One disappeared (probably taken away by someone). One hurt her leg on a piece of metal, got sepsis before we noticed the wound and died. One was simply found dead soon after. One survived.

We decided to have the mother of 10 kittens spayed. Well, that was a bad decision. She died of complications few days later, in November 2009. On 22 May 2010, her daughter gave birth to a litter of five. They were all unusally large and active; they crawled all over the place on their first day of life! Nevertheless, on 26 May, we found one kitten dead. On 30 May, we found two kittens dead. On 3 June, the last two died. We found all of them with their mouths wide open and some had tongues out of their mouth. We heard the last kitten making odd sounds, as if it had difficulties with breathing.

What happened? Why did they all die within 20 days of their birth? I've lost 15 cats from this cat family so far and I was really looking forward to this generation. Did they catch cat flu? If they did, what are the odds of survival for the next litter? (Yes, I plan to leave their mother unspayed. Why? See what happened to their grandmother.)

post #2 of 23
If you are going to let these cats have kittens, you need to help take care of them. Don't leave the kittens out to get eaten by dogs or hurt on metal. This is ridiculously irresponsible pet ownership. Please get the mother spayed.

Does she have any sort of shots or is she on any type of preventative medication?
post #3 of 23
It would be very irresponsible to leave any of the cats unspayed. You have lost a lot of kittens, and there is likely some genetic defect that is causing this.

You need to either seek a vet's advice, and get (costly) testing done, or you need to have all the cats spayed. It would cruel and inhumane to allow any of cats with the same DNA to breed only to have the kittens suffer the same fate.

Not only that, but there are so many kittens that don't have homes, it would be unwise to willingly bring more kittens into the world. If you choose to ignore this advice, you really need to at least have any surviving kittens spayed, vaccinated, tested for diseases, dewormed etc., as well as find appropriate homes, and have contracts in place with adopters, to ensure the kittens are taken care of for life.
post #4 of 23
What in the name of responsible pet ownership are you thinking????? These animals died because you did not take care of them. You let them breed and pop out kittens like there is no tomorrow.

Well for all those kittens and cats there was no tomorrow. One cat died while getting spayed. And your reasoning for not having any more spayed is what? Look at how many have died.

I am at a loss to understand this poster.
post #5 of 23
I'm sorry to hear about all the passings but, I agree, if you want to prevent future deaths have whatever cats are still available spayed/nuetered ASAP.
post #6 of 23
Why are you breeding these cats? It seems to me that you don't have the knowledge nor the experience to be doing this. A litter in March and another in July??? Producing these kittens and leaving them to fend for themselves outside is irresponsible and bothersome.

The kittens could have died for many reasons. Have you had the cats viral tested? Blood typed? This could answer your question.

Your track record is dismal.

Spay and Neuter your cats and enjoy them as pets.
post #7 of 23
I know it's hard when you lose one to a spay (it shouldn't happen at all, I definitely wouldn't use that vet again), but the chances of a cat dying from a spay are very low, and the chances of her dying from having too many litters is very high. Statistics-wise spaying is safer.

I have no idea what could have happened to the kittens. The mortality rate for outdoor kittens is probably somewhere around 98% (from what I've seen), so it's to be expected.
post #8 of 23
I am sorry that your previous experience has made you wary of spaying her, but there is obviously something wrong with these cats and by not spaying, you are causing her to go through the distress of pregnancy and losing them constantly - they could be carrying something like FIV or FeLV that is causing the kittens to look healthy but die soon after birth, or it could be connected to the cat flu the grandmother nearly died from. IT sounds like you might have had the grandmother spayed and then put her back outside, they should ideally be kept in for 10 days after a spay, if you dont have space maybe the vet could board her for you to make sure she is recovering OK?
post #9 of 23
Mortality in outdoor kittens is somewhere between 50 and 99 percent. This is why we all encourage owners to keep their cats indoors. It sounds like you have had bad luck with disease, predators, and accidents.
post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivara View Post
We decided to have the mother of 10 kittens spayed. Well, that was a bad decision. She died of complications few days later, in November 2009.
No, it was not in ANY way a bad decision. Possibly the vet not the best one, ???
but NOT a bad decision. Believe me.

Any surgery does has some risks. So is delivering kids. Or living. As you do also vitness about.

She got an extra chance in the lottery of life, but lost. Really nothing to do. But be sure her soul does appreciate she got this chance... You can sleep soundly.


And thus, my - and ours - definitive advice is you do get spayed every cat you can get your hands on. Spaying them is usually the big trick.
Unless of course you do REALLY want to start a proper breeding programme, with perfect vet care, etc, etc...


And the 5 kittens? Some virus or bacteria infection. Not that unusual. especielly if they dont get first rate care / vet care after the first one got sick /died.


Good luck!
post #11 of 23
One of the things to think about is whether or not this queen was healthy upon having her surgery. You cannot expect miracles if she has a disease or some health issue and then goes under anethesia and has a surgery and doesn't get treatment or care on the follow up. Complications are usually due to infections that are acquired after the surgery and largely those are from not receiving adequate care of the wound, allowing the cat to be overly active too soon after surgery, or the cat living in a dirty environment after it's had surgery.

I don't know what situation these cats were in but in my opinion but it doesn't sound as if they are in a situation where their best interests are put forward. I wouldn't be hestitant to spay another cat because of that experience. I would be hestitant to breed another cat in that enviroment where there will be more kittens lost and more chance of infection for the queen. Please have this cat spayed and get her in a safer environment for her health. I highly suggest you have your vet give her a complete blood workup and fecal before you put her under to have her spayed though.
post #12 of 23
hello, SPAY HER. Quit letting them breed, you have already lost 10 and you let her daughter have a litter. Why are you being so irresponsible?

Actually I think the best thing is to rehome every single cat you have, your irresponsibility speaks for itself. These cats need good homes not an irresponsible one.

Taryn
post #13 of 23
I smell a troll. Can anyone really think the way this person is thinking? Can anyone really not understand why these kittens are dying and why no more should be made?

I know there is profound ignorance in this world...but can this possibly be for real?
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
I smell a troll. Can anyone really think the way this person is thinking? Can anyone really not understand why these kittens are dying and why no more should be made?

I know there is profound ignorance in this world...but can this possibly be for real?
I don't know but the signs speak for themselves. 1 post of a very controversial nature and then takes off without another word smells like internet troll to me.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
I smell a troll. Can anyone really think the way this person is thinking? Can anyone really not understand why these kittens are dying and why no more should be made?

I know there is profound ignorance in this world...but can this possibly be for real?
3 years as a firefighter, and 2 years in EMS, yeah, it exists, and its a chronic problem in society, and much more rampant than most people realize (just think about how many unsprayed kitties there are, etc.).

I didn't really understand how bad animal hording could be until we had a house go up with ~10-15 cats; cats go pyscho when they're in fire oddly enough, and the person couldn't understand the problem.
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivara View Post
H
They were all unusally large and active; they crawled all over the place on their first day of life!
Sounds fishy to me.

Also this sounds like too much, 10 kittens dead then mom dies after surgery. 5 more kittens die. I have never seen cats deliver cats this predictably much less having them all survive the first 24 hours.

Sounds like someone lives in soap opera land, or is just really stupid. I will say I have some things happen in my life that soap opera writers couldn't come up with, but none involve the death of 15 kittens or 15 living anythings.

Taryn
post #17 of 23
I actually had a conversation similar to this with the manager of one of our stores a couple of weeks ago. She said her daughter had several cats all the time, but there would be kittens born, kittens died, older cats died, there was a constant turnover.

"There's a solution to that," I told her. "Get the adults fixed and keep them indoors.

"Yeah," she said, "but why bother when they always get replaced with new kittens?"

"Because every one of those little souls cries out to heaven," I muttered under my breath.
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
I actually had a conversation similar to this with the manager of one of our stores a couple of weeks ago. She said her daughter had several cats all the time, but there would be kittens born, kittens died, older cats died, there was a constant turnover.

"There's a solution to that," I told her. "Get the adults fixed and keep them indoors.

"Yeah," she said, "but why bother when they always get replaced with new kittens?"

"Because every one of those little souls cries out to heaven," I muttered under my breath.
Maybe we should advocate for getting humans sprayed and neutered :-/
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCommander View Post
Maybe we should advocate for getting humans sprayed and neutered :-/
Already been tried. Ever hear of "eugenics?" And many states used to have mandatory sterilization laws for anyone committed to a mental institution.
post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblanche View Post
Already been tried. Ever hear of "eugenics?" And many states used to have mandatory sterilization laws for anyone committed to a mental institution.
I'm not saying stupid should be illegal, more that we should just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself.
post #21 of 23
Has anyone read the posting rules lately? Obviously most people know and agree that ALL of their animals should be spayed/neutered but some do not. Intead of jumping on them you should encourage them and try to bring them to your way of thinking. Not one of you know the situation of the cat who died after being spayed so how can you claim it was because of a dirty environment or poor care?

If it is somebody just trying to get a rise out of people then guess what- it worked!
post #22 of 23
I never said there was any issue with her care if the cat who died after the spay. If it is true I doubt it was anything she did wrong. Face it those of us who perform TNR release our cats the next day, they go about their lives climbing, laying in dirt and most have no complications no matter what they do post surgery.

There was most likely complications from the cat's overall health and there was nothing that could be done about it.

We all know surgery is not risk-free, but to say never again especially for an outside cat is irresponsible, not to mention dangerous for the cat. There is a lot more by not getting her spayed than there is to get it done. She is a lot more likely to die having kittens than there is having her spayed. She will live a longer healthier life.

A Siamese died last year after having her 3rd litter of the summer. None of her litters from any of the 3 litters survived. Now her owner was not feeding her and my cats hated her and would chase her off if she came near the house. I tried feeding her separate and out of sight of mine but if they saw her they chased her off. There was nothing I could do for the cat as far as getting her fixed or finding her a new home because she had an owner, albeit a very very bad one.

Like I said I still think this sounds fishy for no kittens to die in the first few days and then they all die. Not to mention all of them crawling all over the place right after birth. Like I said cats don 't have predictable same size litters.

Mama's first litter we know of was 4 kittens, her one last year was 3. Between her daughters Biter and Goldie(from the first litter we know of) they had 9 kittens total, since they co-mothered the 9 we don't know whose kittens were whose so I can't say how many each had. Her daughter Callie had 3. That is how many we know of, except Callie who was caught right after giving birth so we know she only had 3. Biter, Goldie and Mama all brought their kittens here at the same time. Biter and Goldie's were around 4 weeks, Mama's were 6 weeks so I have no idea how many they had that didn't make it or if all lived. Mama's were totally unsocialized and couldn't be socialized and 2 left immediately and the other stuck around for several weeks before moving 1/4 mi up the road to the Clydesdale farm to become a barn kitty(she did it on her own.)

The 9 kittens(1 disappeared and 1 was PTS) of Biter and Goldie were able to be socialized and I have 5 of them still here and they are all wonderful cats. Half-tail was very skittish(she seemed to want attention but was scared) and didn't really want anything to do with us until her spay, I was kind and gentle and petted her as she was still loopy from the pain killer and anesthesia after I felt it was too cold outside to leave her in her kennel so I brought her inside into the bathroom and kept her in the kennel overnight(she doesn't get the concept of a litter box and I wasn't about to clean up any messes.) She became friendlier and accepts attention, not as much as the others and it's only if we initiate it.

Like I said something about it just doesn't sound right. If it is true the cat is going to die as well as any kittens she has. To repeatedly lose all her kittens it affects her mentally as well and that isn't good either. I'm sure there is inbreeding, her(and possibly her mother's) daddy is mating with her which is only making it more likely to lose an entire litter and have messed up kittens.

I'm not saying she is doing anything that is causing everyone to die. The main thing is to get her spayed so this isn't an issue anymore and it is irresponsible to not get her spayed especially with repeated multiple entire litter losses.

Taryn
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by cslenker View Post
Has anyone read the posting rules lately? Obviously most people know and agree that ALL of their animals should be spayed/neutered but some do not. Intead of jumping on them you should encourage them and try to bring them to your way of thinking. Not one of you know the situation of the cat who died after being spayed so how can you claim it was because of a dirty environment or poor care?

If it is somebody just trying to get a rise out of people then guess what- it worked!


The poster has not been here since the first post. There is no way to know if this is a troll (which members shouldn't be speculating about) or someone that ran screaming after some of the posts in this thread. While I don't agree with many of the OP's ideas, if I were them I certainly wouldn't be coming back here after being called stupid and people calling me a troll and suggesting that I was lying.

It is not for the members to decide if someone is a legitimate poster or not. If you are concerned about a post, please report it by clicking on the exclamation point in the red triangle in the upper-right hand corner of the post. Let the Mods look into it as that is what we are here for.

I will now close this thread. Sivara, it you still need some help, please feel free to start a new thread or PM me to have this one reopened.
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