Danger and Dentals

These posts on the CRF thread scare the crap out of me:

Originally Posted by sharky

IMHO I will never do another dental on any animal... but that is after multiple deaths shortly after in my and close friends animals

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Originally Posted by mews2much

I should post my friend kays story about how her sphynx died having a dental....I know of so many people and breeders that lost cats that way.

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I am told my cat needs a dental. I was already worried about the risks of anesthesia; I asked the vet out of a hundred cats, how many on average do not survive the procedure....she said it depends and wouldn't give an approximate number. Reading these posts, I am terribly worried. I assume the posters were talking about cats in decent health? I start to wonder if the risks of a dental outweigh the risks of disease from bad teeth.

Then again, someone told me today that her cats get two teeth cleanings a year at Banfield. I don't know what to think. The prospect of my cat getting a dental really scares me.

Is there a way to "test" a little bit of anesthetic on the cat to see if they react to it? There should be.

I have never had a get have one done because I am to scared.
I know so many people that had problems.
It depends on the cat also.
This is part of my friends story.
She still blames herself and it will be 3 years this april.
In tribute to GODZ Gimli Gil-Galad Marshall who died from Ketamine during a dental cleaning in April 2008. May this information save others from the ugliness of unnecessary loss due to the common misconception by many of today's vets that "A cat is a cat".
Never use Ketamine.
It has killed so many cats not just my friends.
He was only 3 years old when he died.

Hmm... just had a thought. The real risk is the anesthesia, right? Spaying and neutering involves anesthesia...and nobody will tell you it's not worth the risk. If I can find out which anesthetic was used when my cat was neutered, I already know that he won't react to it, and I could ask the vet to use the same anesthetic for the dental! Right? Wouldn't that reduce the risk?

Is neutering general or local anesthesia? What about declaw procedure? This kitty's front declawed.

Come to think of it, I wonder just how many cats do not survive their spay/neuter surgery, or suffer complications. How are alteration procedures and dental procedures alike and different?

Sorry...off-topic and rambling here....but the anesthesia is the big issue, isn't it?


Edit...I brought up ketamine with my vet...she said all anesthetics have risks, didn't seem to oppose it or anything....

I am very scared for my cat on monday.
She is getting altered and I am giving the vet a list of what not to use.
The thing with dentals is they take way long then altering does.
How old is your cat?
I had a cat almost die from being altered in fact my friends sphynx almost bled to death last monday and ended up in the er from being altered earlier that day.
If you do the dental get blood tests.
They are have risks but ketamine is known to kill.
My vet even knows it is one of the worse meds around.

Originally Posted by mews2much

How old is your cat?

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Eight, see the poll above.

Yes, you can get pre anesthesia blood tests. Push your vet to discuss what anesthesia methods they use. If you don't like it, tell them so.

Unless someone messes up, a cat only gets spay or neutered once and generally when they're younger. Younger cats can be a bit hardier.

If your cats teeth are getting bad, then it needs to be done. But if you want to avoid this you must brush your cats teeth.



I have one that's going to have to have another dental soon. It spooks me too because his last one left him sick. He even reacted to all the cream they put in his eyes to keep them from drying out.

I've had cats go through many dentals with no problems.

My then 17 (rb 5/09) year old Ootay had a dental with two extractions. this was a cat who had kidney disease, hyperthyroid disease, high blood pressure, arthritis, heart murmur megacolon, and one stroke.

She did fine It gave her a new lease on life, not having that mouth pain.

Periodontal disease causes kidney disease. A healthy mouth is very important. Discuss your fears with your vet, discuss anesthesia choices. Gas is safest. Discuss the recent anesthesia recall and see how much your vet knows about it.

My 11 year old seizure kitty has had three dentals in his life, one included the surgery of several extractions because he had FORL. He takes phenobarbital for seizures, and he was just fine.

preop blood work is a must. If you know and trust your vet, everything should be fine. yes, everything is a risk, but mouth problems hurt. You don't want to subject your kitty to a lifetime of mouth pain, and early death to kidney disease.

Afterward you can implement a regime of home dental care that will reduce or eliminate the need for having it done again.

I have had at least a dozen dentals done on cats, more than spays actually, and all bar a couple have been on senior cats with no issues at all - I do know my vet uses one of the safest anaesthetics we have in the UK though. Last year I had a dental done on a 17yo hyper-t cat with incredibly high liver enzymes, and he was perfectly fine - in an ideal world, he would have had treatment for at least a month first cos his thyroid levels were so high, but he wasn't eating, so it was that or pts, he had another 2 months before his liver got worse. I would never ever recommend anyone to refuse a dental, it can contribute to a lot of health issues, but if you have an older cat, get pre-anaesthetic bloods done and ask for fluids. One of my foster cats had 11 teeth out in one go, he was under for over 45 mins cos of probs with one of his teeth and he woke up and wolfed two pouches at the vets, where he had barely eaten previously cos his teeth bothered him so much, it really can give them a new lease of life.

I've had quite a few dentals done - mostly extractions, not so much cleaning. I had bloodwork done on (almost) all of them - Twitch's was done many years ago.

Fafeena was the most recent at age 16.
Tabitha was 10-ish when hers was done.
Cow was 5 when his was done.
Twitch was 2 when hers was done.
Molly just had one done at age 4.

I guess I am lucky, never any bad experiences.......and I've had 3 senior cats with varying stages of CRF who have had dentals and never any problems.

My VERY old cat BeeJoo was a sickly stray I had found; determined to be very old but how old, who could say for sure? She had horrible teeth when I found her, and had CRF, high blood pressure, a rare condition of adrenal glands, etc. It's very likely that her horrible teeth had contributed to her CRF to begin with. I felt no choice but to have dental done, and she had several extractions as well. If anything, her BUN and Creat actually improved a little following dental.

My old cat Taco had elevated Creat and BUN for many years.....first noticed in 2000 if you can believe it. He had 3 dentals in 9 years, each time having extractions. He was also diabetic for his last 2 dentals so had to be even more closely monitored. He came out like a trooper and no noticable impact to kidneys. I was able to get his blood sugars back on track shortly after dentals.

My oldest cat Tigger (passed away in Dec of 2009), she'd had a dental back in August which included 3 extractions. This was her first dental ever - because she'd always had great teeth and gums; every year when I'd take her in for check-up, they remark how great her teeth and gums were.........and her breath was so fresh (not the usual funk breath that older cats often get with gingivitis). It was only this past summer she started to get a lot of tartar on back molars and breath started to get funky. She did pretty well after the dental though there was a period there that she didnt' want to eat much but in her case I attributed this to the suture where one tooth extracted, it came open and food would get stuck in the hole. Took me a few days to figure this out. When I did, I took her back so they could flush the piece of food out, I had them start her on antibiotics. The moment I got home after they flushed out food (the tip-off was her breath was so funky, like rotting food, which wasn't normal to me)......she ate like a pig, obviously felt so much better.

So I had 3 higher risk senior cats with known CRF and never had any bad experiences with dentals. I use a clinic that monitors BP and heart rate while under anesthetic (this is critical; not all do, and that's crazy stupid; as blood pressure can drop during anesthetic and if BP not being monitored, they're not going to know until heartrate really starts to go up...by then there's been less perfusion to kidneys, other things...so critical to find a clinic that does this.......and most where I live do NOT). I only allow the use of Isoflurane gas for anesthetic which I think nowadays, thankfully, is the normal. Much less tough on kidneys.

I also don't gork my cats up on pain killers once at home recovering. They generally give them a shot of Metacam post-op and send me home with the liquid to give, which I do not as a rule though I did with Taco for 2 days post-op because at the time I didn't know any better........and truth be told, despite his CRF, it had no ill effects whatsoever. None.

2 of my other cats, non CRF, have had dentals..........one had extractions, the other didn't need them. No problems afterward, none whatsoever.

Untreated gingivitis and bad teeth can lead to CRF and heart issues......the bacteria in gums travels through bloodstream to organs.

There was even a point where Taco had a dental 4 yrs ago and they did bloodwork pre-dental and called me to tell me his Creat was quite high, wanted to know if I wanted to proceed (i think it was 4). He very much needed the dental so I decided that to forego it would be even harder on his kidneys so they proceeded under my direction............and that was 4 yrs ago, no ill effects from same.

Something I've learned and am a huge proponent of, if cat having a dental.

Insist on the following:

1. pre-anesthetic bloodwork. this is a must. stupidly, many clinics seem to offer this as an option to owners, I guess to cut costs. Get it done. #1 so that you know where things stand prior, in case cat has funky things going on that would make anesthetic a risk..and #2, so that you have a baseline in the event that cat has problems following dental; at least then if subsequent bloodwork is done, you have something to compare to.

2. Insist on IV prior to dental. Again here many clinics seem to offer this as an option to owners, again to cut costs. This is ludicrous to me. As a human nurse who's worked with humans going for all kinds of surgery, it would be unheard of for any human to undergo any kind of surgery, even day surgery, without having an IV in place..........not only for fluids (to help prevent or counteract possible drop in blood pressure during anesthetic), but to have an effective and establish "port", if you will, so that if the patient (cat or human) "goes flat" during anesthetic, they have IV in place to give required meds........ it is unthinkable to me, to have a cat potentially "go flat" during anesthetic and have no IV in place, then try to scramble to start one which may not even be possible.

3. Insist on proper monitoring of vitals signs during anesthetic. I will not use a clinic that doesn't have proper blood pressure monitoring during this. Many clinics here don't, they just monitor heart rate. To me that's not enough. If a cat's BP drops during anesthetic and BP isn't being monitored, by the time the heart rate monitor starts to beep to signify trouble, the BP is already damn low........best for them to see the BP dropping before it becomes a critical situation, IMO.

4. If cat has extensive extractions, request post-op antibiotics. yes, they'll often give IV or IM shot of Baytril or something before discharging cat home.........but to me, a one-time dose is not enough. In my older cats who've had extractions, particularly one who had diabetes and the last thing we needed was an injection going on due to the extraction and monkeying around in there, I would insist on a week or 10 days of antibiotics. My preference was Convenia; the injectable antibiotic that is sustained release and works for 14 days. Now I've read that some cats have side effects with this; mine never did (3 of them). In one of my cats, Taco, he couldn't tolerate ANY oral antibiotic so he was the first cat to get this, we had no choice.

ALSO; to add............this is only MY preference........but in a cat with really bad gingivitis/funky mouth, I prefer a week to 10 days of antibiotic treatment PRIOR to the dental..........like Clindamycin (Antirobe). No different to me than with humans who have a bad tooth, say an abscess, and the dentist/dental surgeon will want them on a course of antibiotics prior to the dental. It's riskier to be poking around in there, doing an extraction, when there's infection in there............plus, whether humans or cats, they often do a 'nerve block' in addition to anesthetic............if tooth is bad. A nerve block doesn't take as well if infection present...........so antibiotics a good thing.

Just my 2 Canadian cents, based on my experiences.

Hope this helps.

Miss Kalamata,

Hard to answer your poll without asking some questions, more info needed about your cat's situation to just pick one of the 4 possible answers.

Is conjunctivitis being treated? Is it a recently new development?

Do you know the cause of the loose stools? Have diagnostics been done to determine cause? Is this a new development or longstanding problem? Has stool been tested for parasites? fungus? bacteria? Did loose stools coincide w/ diet change? Have food allergies been ruled out? Does cat go outside or strictly indoors? How many times a day is cat having loose stools? Is cat dehydrated at all? Are the loose stools being treated?

I have a senior girl (~13 yo) who has kidney problems. She's had a dental every year for the past several years with no problems at all. I always have the pre-dental blood work done on her because they have to check her numbers not only to make sure she's healthy enough to be put under, but also because that's when they do her semi-annual blood work to check her kidney function.

Having said that, I would make sure that my cat is in optimum health prior to any type of procedure regarding anesthesia. If your cat has any type of illness or issues prior to the procedure, make sure that it's being address and under treatment or delay the procedure if possible.

Originally Posted by the_food_lady

I
4. If cat has extensive extractions, request post-op antibiotics. yes, they'll often give IV or IM shot of Baytril or something before discharging cat home.........but to me, a one-time dose is not enough. In my older cats who've had extractions, particularly one who had diabetes and the last thing we needed was an injection going on due to the extraction and monkeying around in there, I would insist on a week or 10 days of antibiotics. My preference was Convenia; the injectable antibiotic that is sustained release and works for 14 days. Now I've read that some cats have side effects with this; mine never did (3 of them). In one of my cats, Taco, he couldn't tolerate ANY oral antibiotic so he was the first cat to get this, we had no choice.

ALSO; to add............this is only MY preference........but in a cat with really bad gingivitis/funky mouth, I prefer a week to 10 days of antibiotic treatment PRIOR to the dental..........like Clindamycin (Antirobe). No different to me than with humans who have a bad tooth, say an abscess, and the dentist/dental surgeon will want them on a course of antibiotics prior to the dental. It's riskier to be poking around in there, doing an extraction, when there's infection in there............plus, whether humans or cats, they often do a 'nerve block' in addition to anesthetic............if tooth is bad. A nerve block doesn't take as well if infection present...........so antibiotics a good thing.

Just my 2 Canadian cents, based on my experiences.

Hope this helps.

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All cats in the UK come home with at least a 7 day course of antibiotics following a dental, then a check up in case they need more (some of mine have, the ones that have had gingivitis), and it is common to have antibiotics prior to the dental to help any infection before they poke about. Not all my cats have had IV fluids, although I think that will change in the future, I will start doing that, they always have pre-anaesthetic bloods though (I only adopt senior cats).

Wow, thank you all for the wealth of information! Thanks especially to The Food Lady for that informative post!

I'd still like to hear from Sharky, as her post was one of the ones that scared me.

About the pre-op bloodwork: my vet says as long as it's been done in the past 6 months it's fine. By the time my cat gets a dental, it will be 6-7 months....should I pass on the bloodwork, or get it to be safe?

Originally Posted by the_food_lady

Miss Kalamata,

Hard to answer your poll without asking some questions, more info needed about your cat's situation to just pick one of the 4 possible answers.

Is conjunctivitis being treated? Is it a recently new development? Not recent. Actually, the vet said it's gone, and the crusties on his eyes are dry tears. I don't know if I believe her...he gets "goobers," the same kind he had when he was diagnosed with conjunctivitis. If he does have it, it's not severe.

Do you know the cause of the loose stools? Have diagnostics been done to determine cause? No.

Is this a new development or longstanding problem? The problem has been there for a while, but lately seems to be getting worse. He had diarrhea one day that I saw. I would like the issue solved prior to a dental though.

Has stool been tested for parasites? fungus? bacteria? No. One of my other cats had loose stools for a long time, before this cat did. When this cat started getting them, I suspected they both had giardia/coccidia/parasites. I was able to get a stool sample from the other cat, and no parasites. I guess maybe it's the food.

Did loose stools coincide w/ diet change? Not as far as I know.

Have food allergies been ruled out? No....I guess I will have to try a zillion foods now. I just worry I will try out a food the cats LOVE, only to find it doesn't help, and have to force the cats to switch to something less tasty.

Does cat go outside or strictly indoors? Inside.
How many times a day is cat having loose stools? Is cat dehydrated at all? I don't know how often he goes...he does eat all dry, and I do worry about dehydration.

Are the loose stools being treated?No.

I want the issue solved before the dental, but then again I don't want to delay the dental for months while we try to fix his digestive issues. Will the loose stools add an additional risk to the dental procedure?

Thanks for all the advice! It's too bad my vet thinks that no good can come from the Internet.

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Originally Posted by otto

Discuss the recent anesthesia recall and see how much your vet knows about it.

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RECALL?!?!?!?!

A lot can change in 6 months, I would do the bloodwork again. With anesthesia there is always a risk. At only 8 years of age, your cat is still fairly young. The early senior years, so IMO at a lot less risk than a cat who is 12+ years old.

I thought most vets these days used Isoflurane for anesthetic? It's the only one I would allow my cats to go under with, particularly any cat with kidney issues.

Miss Kalamata, you should contact your clinic and ask them what they use for general anesthetic in cat dentals; and ask them if they can or do use Isoflurane.

The vet in town here uses Ketamine on animals of all ages, he assures me its "very safe". He's a farm vet - old country style.

Originally Posted by white cat lover

A lot can change in 6 months, I would do the bloodwork again. With anesthesia there is always a risk. At only 8 years of age, your cat is still fairly young. The early senior years, so IMO at a lot less risk than a cat who is 12+ years old.

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I agree. I would not have any cat of mine go under anesthesia with blood work more than a few weeks old. Health can change very quickly in cats.

this is the information I was sent about the anesthetic recall

http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-1...ing-recall-fda

I didn't realize people haven't heard about it. I guess I will start a thread then.

My vet uses gas anesthesia on my cats, with my approval.