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Ethical breeding? - Page 3

post #61 of 72
I've always understood ethical breeding is all about health and wellbeing of the cats.
Health first, temperament second, looks definitely last.

I cannot reconcile that with inbreeding. No one has ever given me a valid argument for inbreeding except that it is a good shortcut when you are going for the good looks and the show ribbons.
I have attended several lectures by a population geneticist and his statistics about inbreeding in dogs really shocked me. A 10% higher COI means 1 less puppy per litter and also a 10 month shorter lifespan for the average dog of that breed.
Breeders cannot see things like this from where they are standing, especially since they happen so gradually everybody thinks certain littersizes or lifespans are normal for their breeds. It's a shame there is no immediate slap on the wrist, so to speak.

But I still don't know any breeders who would knock 10 months off a cat's life just to get better type, so I guess it's better for them not to look into things like this too much and just keep repeating after each other inbreeding no big deal. ("as long as your breeding stock is healthy" or "as long as you know what you are doing")

Just my 2 cents.
post #62 of 72
I should have said I'm more in favour of LINE BREEDING then.

http://cats.suite101.com/article.cfm/inbreeding_cats
post #63 of 72
Most breeders really do more LINE breeding then true inbreeding. You have to study the pedigrees to find out how much line or inbreeding is going on.

Certain lines mesh better together and give you the desired look/type/color, etc. You don't just pick one cat from here and one from there and hope for the best. Reading pedigrees and doing some research on the background will give you a better and healthier cat.
post #64 of 72
Thread Starter 
I think Im going to stick to my original plan of spaying. I called a few vets to get prices for spay and see what types of anathesia they use.. I found a vet who does not use the ketamine, and the spay will cost $98, which I think is the average cost around here to spay a pet around 10 pds.

I dont even know what COI means.. or the percentage of COI.. you just went over my head.. way too much to learn before I can really consider breeding!



Just curious tho.. when you outcross.. are the kittens still considered purebred? Are they able to be registered? In the dog world, outcrossing is generally not accepted.. few times it would be is to preserve a nearly extinct breed, or for working type dogs that are bred for work and are not really a "breed", such as lurchers and alaskan huskies.
post #65 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by nekkiddoglady View Post
I think Im going to stick to my original plan of spaying. I called a few vets to get prices for spay and see what types of anathesia they use.. I found a vet who does not use the ketamine, and the spay will cost $98, which I think is the average cost around here to spay a pet around 10 pds.

I dont even know what COI means.. or the percentage of COI.. you just went over my head.. way too much to learn before I can really consider breeding!



Just curious tho.. when you outcross.. are the kittens still considered purebred? Are they able to be registered? In the dog world, outcrossing is generally not accepted.. few times it would be is to preserve a nearly extinct breed, or for working type dogs that are bred for work and are not really a "breed", such as lurchers and alaskan huskies.
Outcrossing doesn't have to mean between breeds it can be within a breed. For example if I imported a cat from the States it probably wouldn't have any of the blood lines my current cats do so I'd mate it to one from here and it would be considered an outcross - no bloodlines the same for at least 5 or 6 generations
post #66 of 72
Don't worry I don't know what COI means and I've been breeding Persians/Exotics for 11 years.
post #67 of 72
Thread Starter 
When I looked at the standard for Sphynx it mentioned that the domestic short hair and the rex were accepted outcrosses.. so what if a Sphynx was bred to a rex? Are the kittens considered mix or purebred? Are they registered?
post #68 of 72
They can be shown if out crossed with a rex or american shorthair.
Cleo has american shorthair in her.
post #69 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats View Post
I should have said I'm more in favour of LINE BREEDING then.

http://cats.suite101.com/article.cfm/inbreeding_cats
Linebreeding is just a euphemism for inbreeding, which is why I refuse to use the term most of the time

From your link:

Quote:
Line breeding is still a form of inbreeding, though it refers to more distant relationships between the breeding cats.
You still raise your COI (coefficient of inbreeding) which still hasn't got any health benefits.
The COI predicts what percentage of all genepairs are homozygous. Because they were passed down from the same ancestor on both sides.

It is said that inbreeding is good because you double up on the good genes. the problem with this statement is that you can't control what you double up on, so you also double up on any bad genes that are present. Breeders select for 30 or so genes that influence visible characteristics, but a cat has about 30.000 gene pairs that influence health, behaviour etc. You also lose a lot of the variety in those genes when you inbreed.
And what is gone, is gone forever.

Unless you get lucky and can go look for outcrosses from breeders who have quietly kept doing their own thing breeding cats in stead of trying to get those lines everyone is trying to get because certain lines do better with the judges

Showing can be quite useful and fun but following all the "trends" you see in the judges' taste can have disastrous consequences for your genepool and thus for you breed.
post #70 of 72
If type is not set and you're trying to breed for the lowest COI possible, then you might as well be breeding random cats together. Part of what makes a breed is that the cats themselves are consistent in type/appearance. A breed HAS to have something about it so that a cat of any certain breed looks like a member of that breed.

My cattery has a COI of 0%. I work with some newly imported lines in my breed, and I will HAVE to do linebreeding in order set type. I do genetic testing and have done test close breedings to make sure that I am not introducing any unwanted recessives into my breed. I am very passionate about my breed, and I feel that both of these breeding techniques have a place in my program. I don't do this for instant success in the show hall, in fact, I've yet to produce a grand of my own breeding (soon to change!)
post #71 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisCat View Post
If type is not set and you're trying to breed for the lowest COI possible, then you might as well be breeding random cats together. Part of what makes a breed is that the cats themselves are consistent in type/appearance. A breed HAS to have something about it so that a cat of any certain breed looks like a member of that breed.

IMO you are making a false argument here. You don't have to breed an outcrossed kitten to family, what about a typey member of the same breed ?
And this is still just talking about the exterior, isn't it ?

Conserving a breed should also be about conserving a healthy genepool.
post #72 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa View Post
IMO you are making a false argument here. You don't have to breed an outcrossed kitten to family, what about a typey member of the same breed ?
And this is still just talking about the exterior, isn't it ?

Conserving a breed should also be about conserving a healthy genepool.
I suppose we have to agree to disagree then. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

I've already bred my cats to a cat with great type and an established lineage. Many kittens are lovely, and it will be exciting to see what they can do. But because type is not set, there were a few that looked, well, wrong. I want to "set" what I have acheived and do what I can to prevent the flaws from appearing again. So I will eventually have to do some line breeding in order to accomplish this. Then, with the subsequent generation, I will do some outcrossing. This will not happen overnight, and it is taking a lot of serious planning on my part. I sometimes have dreams about pedigrees!

In breeding cats, a lot of it IS about the exterior. It always seems to be delicate balancing act between good health and good type.

BTW-- you never commented on test close breedings in order to root out unwanted/dangerous recessives in new additions to a breed. Are you opposed to these techniques as well?
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